Tesla News

[george-hughes]

More talk in the tesla crowd about the threat Aptera poses in the ‘economy car’ segment I refer to as a transportation appliance to differentiate between the old gas-powered/hybrid/even small EV economy cars and a vehicle designed for ultra-efficiency.

The articles shown suggest this prospect for at least some of the investors – and that Tesla will have to buy Aptera to maintain its image as the most efficient vehicle manufacturer overall.

Here’s the article: https://www.torquenews.com/14335/tesla-will-have-buy-aptera

And here’s the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InqlVcOxw68

I think that people have been a little reluctant, on the basis of potential competition by Tesla’s third generation economy vehicle slated for robo taxi service when FSD is available.

The cool thing is that Aptera will have at least a two year lead to market and we’ll see soon enough how competitive Aptera will be. The fans boys in the articles appear to suggest, Aptera will easily remain in the lead.

[Greek]

I have always felt that Tesla would buy out APTERA through share acquisitions. APTERA’s production methods will change manufacturing forever. The big 4 will fight change in manufacturing all the way until they realize they themselves need to change how they build. My biggest fear is that Teslas takes control of APTERA with the purpose of shutting them down. If there is to be a Tesla acquisition, I hope it’s after my 3 APTERA’s are delivered to me.

Wondering how many Tesla owners are investing in APTERA?

For speculators not even interested in purchasing an APTERA, it maybe a good early long term investment to purchase some APTERA shares.

[george-hughes]

Chris, Steve and the bunch have had their dream ‘bought/stolen’ and killed once before.

The funny thing is if this market segment I identify as a transportation appliance will eventually become a robotaxi attacking the idle rate of vehicular capital at 95% (cars are idle 95% of the time) leaves me with the impression, to be confirmed a week from today, that Aptera has the better package for that including the fact that you can build them today, lease them and when the lease is over, remanufacture them with the latest self-driving capability five or ten years hence at the end of the first lease.

It is the remanufacturing and sustainability of the Aptera platform, particularly if coupled with a proliferation of mini-assembly plants – more than a hundred in the US and easily as many world-wide; all supplied by subsystem suppliers, some of which make new stuff and others that repair and remanufacture subsystems culled from Aptera with obsolete components.

The point is the binc, with its generational lifetime, remains the same because it is an expensive, long-lasting component that it is EASY to take apart and remanufacture with updated tech, batteries and solar panels – when the current designs become obsolete.

Having all those small assembly plants everywhere integrates the assembly into the country and expands the manufacturing capability of the nation with a lean-design factory floor.

Heck, you can imagine third-parties making complete subsystems with exciting new capabilities and Aptera offering these items as OEM or add-on equipment easily installed as a subsystem.

[john-malcom]

Tesla would have no interest in Aptera. Tesla will have a small, cheap, EV ready for market by the time Aptera starts production in 2024. The Tesla production process is locked in and in its own right is revolutonalry. (Mega presses) The production process used by Aptera would not work in Tesla production facilities. Tesla is vertically integrated making much of the vehicle on site where Aptera assembles modules built somewhere else.

When I visited BYD’s R&D facility in Shenzen, I saw a presentation on the Tesla 25K EV. It is pretty close! BYD may provide their blade batteries for Tesla use.

[george-hughes]

I agree totally, Tesla has no interest other than possibly to kill Aptera as it raises the bar of competition in the arena of efficiency.

I’m just getting a kick out of the reactions of the Tesla fan boys to real competition. I mean they’re used to lame response of GM 🙂

So you’ve seen a close approximation of the vehicle. I’m sure it uses giga-castings and primarily aluminum body panels, but what kind of efficiency? Any guesses?

[john-malcom]

From what I have seen in paid for competitive analysis conducted for a current vehicle manufacturer transitioning to electric vehicles, Tesla’s production is all over the map. The factors are geographical location, (Shanghai the worst because of COVID interruptions) Germany second worst, TX to new to measure accurately and it will be the site of some new models so should be excluded. CA the best. Excluding shanghai, all are more efficient that the current vehicle manufacturing based on a metrics of time and cost and process. The significant advantages of Tesla, good vertical integration, and especially the giga presses. Tesla efficiency is increasing, especially with the fielding of giga presses. Convention manufacturing of EV vehicles, static. The discriminator is that Tesla started with a clean sheet, legacy are trying to convert from ICE manufacturing and manufacturing control systems.

Sorry, proprietary data so can’t provide numbers. The other statistically signifant factor is model. Another interesting observation in the analysis. Build quality is poor. I know that was the case with my M3 which I got rid of.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 1 month ago by  John Malcom. Reason: correct spelling

[george-hughes]

Sounds to me their transportation appliance, while probably better than the competition, will not be a leap beyond Aptera’s BinC in any stretch of the imagination.

I think that Aptera’s approach with mini assembly plants and centralized subsystem manufacture will scale admirably and, with most of the capitalization already in place in the hands of third parties, some of which are already Aptera suppliers.

The mini-assembly plants can largely be financed locally by local development authorities which also will minimize the capital needed to expand the assembly operations geographically.

I think socially, this distributed approach to assembly makes re-manufacture of the near indestructible BinC allowing both hardware and software updating escaping that killer of value depreciation due to obsolescence.

Think of it this way, if my mythical leasing company placed 50,000 Aptera in consumer hands and now 10,000 are ending their five year lease. Isn’t it cool the leasing company has a vehicle that with a $6,000 upgrade to its nav sensors, can operate as a robo-taxi. New seats and a redesign of the dash with a credit card machine and no steering wheel, you have an instant robo taxi for a fraction of the cost.

But nothing can happen or will happen until Aptera gets into production. Then things get really exciting!

[curtis-cibinel]

Lets face it this reporting is crazy speculative. They suggested Aptera should buy Tesla not for technology but for simple manufacturing space. Much as I believe Aptera has a strong future I struggle to see one in which it would increase its valuation by a minimum of 1000x or more to be in a position to purchase Tesla.

[john-malcom]

Article and reference to a YouTube post on experience charging a non-Tesla EV at a Tesla Super Charger. It appears that Tesla will charge a higher rate for non-Tesla vehicle charging. Makes sense to appease Tesla owners who now need to deal with growing congestion as more vehicles attempt to use super charger stations. Really good imbedded YouTube video! Watch for the experiece of several non-Tesla vehicles trying to charge at a Tesla Super Charger. At this location, most EVs are non-Tesla.

https://autos.yahoo.com/charge-non-tesla-tesla-supercharger-220000221.html

• This reply was modified 1 year, 1 month ago by  John Malcom. Reason: added sentence
• This reply was modified 1 year, 1 month ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.

[joshua-rosen]

The rate is very close to the EA price, you can also buy the price down with subscription just like EA.

[Mike-Mars]

The subscription is probably not worth it for Aptera. The saving is $0.10c/kWh, and the subscription costs $12.99/m, which means you’d regularly need to charge $130+ each month to break even. I can imagine that an F150 could easily use that much power. If you DC charged a 40kWh Aptera that frequently, you’d probably kill the battery.

[curtis-cibinel]

I’m fine with Tesla charging a reasonable premium but the big question for Aptera is what chargers we will have access too. Most charging is at home (or solar) anyway so paying roughly 1/3rd the price of a gas econobox per mile to supercharge the aptera is still a drop in the bucket overall. We all hope the entire network will be open since we have the NACS plug but until Aptera or Tesla state this clearly I think we need to assume we may be limited to magicdock equipped chargers (despite not needing or wanting the adapter)

Watching the video in the link it is really funny that the F150 would have reached far more easily if they simply had hinged the charge door on the other side. It will barely reach if parked extremely precisely.

[john-malcom]

I think a many things to be clarified about using Tesla super chargers. I suspect you are correct about us being able to use only the superchargers modified for general EV charging, a subset of avaialble superchargers. The number, TBD. I am wondering if we will need to use the Tesla app or if using Tesla chargers will be incorporated into the Aptera app. Then the question of connectors. The Tesla connector alone, or one or more adapters required. It is frustrating that Aptera either doesn’t know yet or will not enlighten us about super charger charging of the Aptera after the euphoria of annoucing the adaption of NACS (To include the CCS protocol) for Aptera

For me, (Recovering Tesla owner/driver) it would not be worth it to have a membership for the number of times I would use a super charger to charge my Aptera for all of my potential use cases.

[john-malcom]

US Investigates Tesla Over Steering Wheels Falling Off Model Y EVs

For all those that think yokes are a safety hazzard, the government is investigating Tesla for some steering wheels falling off. They are not investigating yokes😉

https://www.pcmag.com/news/us-investigates-tesla-over-steering-wheels-falling-off-model-y-evs

[Markus]

LOL, that’s true! And also shortly after Nissan, again steeing wheels “falling off”, not yokes!

I have a hunch that the term “steering wheel falling off” has been redefined either by the NHTSA or whomever.

[john-malcom]

I meant in jest. The problems with steering wheels falling off is a build QA issue not because it is a steering wheel vs. a yoke or some other device.

I didn’t know about Nissan

I am arecovering Tesla owner. Their build quality is notoriously bad.

[john-malcom]

The Tesla Model Y was the best selling car in the world in Q1 of 2023. Not just the best selling EV, but the best selling car period.

http://www.yahoo.com/news/tesla-had-worlds-top-selling-170236073.html

[craig-merrow]

Wow, that is impressive! And some people think EV’s are just a passing fad – ha!

[john-malcom]

In addition to the recent price reduction (Cheapest Model 3 down to 42K) for U.S. Model 3’s, all recent Model 3’s and also Model Y’s are eligible for the full $7,500 tax incentive. Theoretically, the “Cheap” Model 3 would net out at around $34,500

https://news.yahoo.com/even-the-cheapest-tesla-model-3-now-qualifies-for-the-full-7500-tax-credit-112145637.html

• This reply was modified 10 months, 3 weeks ago by  John Malcom. Reason: corrected spelling
• This reply was modified 10 months, 2 weeks ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.

[john-malcom]

The 25K Tesla is here, but a Model 3, and ownly if bought in CA. With Tesla tweaking its battery supply, Model 3’s qualify for the $7,500 Federal tax incentive and depending on the buyers qualifications may qualify for a CA $7,500 incentive.

My 2019 Tesla Model 3 (No longer with me) cost much more than that 😤

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/us-confirms-tesla-model-3-140131346.html

• This reply was modified 10 months, 2 weeks ago by  John Malcom. Reason: fixed link
• This reply was modified 10 months, 2 weeks ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.

[Miles]

I find it strange that no one has commented on this. During a phone conversation with with a friend (yes, for those of you who doubt, I do have one) he asked if I’d watched the news. I replied that I watch the news every day, probably why I have these nervous tics. He went on to tell me about a report Reuters did about Teslas not living up to their battery range claims and sent me a link.

I just read the article (haven’t yet watched the video) which is why I’m here. It’s a very interesting and damning article that shows how easy it can be for a company to make themselves less relevant. Kind of like letting the press preview a car that isn’t complete. A couple of faux pas like that and it might be better to pick up your marbles and go home.

Here’s the link: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-batteries-range/

Maybe this belongs in the thread that talks about dreams but yes, I do have a dream about winning the lottery and making $100,000,000 available to put the Aptera in production. Right now things seem a little shaky. Even if they went into full scale production tomorrow they would still be a little behind the news.

By the way, that same friend said he’d seen an ad for Aptera. I didn’t know there were any.

• This reply was modified 8 months, 3 weeks ago by  Miles Hunter. Reason: typo
• This reply was modified 8 months, 3 weeks ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.
• This reply was modified 8 months, 3 weeks ago by  Miles Hunter. Reason: typo

[john-malcom]

Tesla has made the decision to manufacture the 25K Model 2 in Germany rather than Mexico as previously rumored. Many Aptera enthusiasts do not believe the Model 2 will be a competitor to the Aptera with both seeming to arrive late 2024/2025. With Europe (Second biggest EV market) as the first target for the Model 2 to counter low priced Chinese EVs, this may be true for the first year. The Model 2 will certainly be a competitor for the next generation Chevy Bolt and the recently announced Stellantis low priced EV products planned for the U.S. Much market potential depends on Aptera’s pricing as it will be hard for them to compete with 30-35K entry EVs seating four or more passengers.

The video has a lot of Aptera video and discussion. Good to see it paired with Tesla stuff. Even suggested that the Model 2 might take efficiency styling ques from Aptera.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hrw8B5tudeA

[Greek]

Isn’t Tesla still struggling with their production of the cyber truck. Tesla also admitting that it will take years for them to get up to speed for its production. Also, I don’t believe Tesla has even shown a true rendition of the model 2. Hard to believe that they will have production set up before APTERA. APTERA already has a head start with finished body components. APTERA may be slow out of the gate thus far, but I am willing to wager we will be 1st.

[john-malcom]

I believe I saw some iteration of it during a visit to BYD two years ago now. At that time it was going to be built in Giga Shanghai. Also, at that time, the Model 2 was to be full self driving. No steering device. A little optimistic about the maturity of FSD. I think production process optimization and either the new CATL batteries or a BYD battery product will support the low pricing. The next gen Bolt will no longer use GM’s Ultium platform but LFP to save cost/price and of course safety. A decision to prepare the Bolt to compete with the Model 2 in the U.S. North American market for market expansion in the only segment left, low price EVs

• This reply was modified 5 months, 1 week ago by  John Malcom. Reason: Added idea

[craig-merrow]

Interesting video! I like the nod toward Aptera aerodynamic efficiency; looks like Tesla has been paying more attention to Aptera than they have previously acknowledged. Will be interesting to see how the Model 2 turns out.

[john-malcom]

Today was the first customer delivery of Tesla’s Cyber Truck. The price of the base model Cyber Truck is now $69.990 an increase of $30K over the original advertised price. I suspect that some portion of the 2M reservations for the Cyber Truck will have sticker shock and not purchase.

This should give a sobering heads up for Aptera reservation holders that don’t believe that Aptera will raise prices.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/m/733f4be8-46d6-331f-8e32-d52ed840ae5c/tesla%E2%80%99s-cybertruck-gets-a.html

• This reply was modified 4 months, 3 weeks ago by  John Malcom. Reason: erased formatting text
• This reply was modified 4 months, 3 weeks ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.

[V-Pilot]

If of the same magnitude, the same will happen, only aptera doesn’t have anywhere near2 million reservation holders.

[john-trotter]

John. I’m not sure the Tesla Cybertruck comparison is useful. It’s kind of like comparing the price of apples and oranges. Both may have inflation effects, but quantitatively it can be a world of difference. Aptera continues to say prices are essentially as they have been. (See recent Bloomberg interview.)

Battery prices are coming down. I have to believe the CPC process and product allows economies in assembly. The slower-than-we-like timeline for getting to large-scale production has pushed price-setting out of the recent “maximum inflation” window, and presumably Aptera is getting reasonable, firm, supplier prices. The sky is not falling.

Of course, the simple truism that price will affect buying decisions is true, but I assume Aptera management knows that.

[john-malcom]

I think it is apples to apples in the following areas. Years of inflation need to be accommodated. Both are new EV products with no history of production to guide pricing. Both require shake out of a new production process. Both will have unknown/unanticipated defects in the first production runs which fixing will require a reservoir of capital that will need to be generated from profitable sales as there is no capital pool to support these costs. Also there needs to be a reclamation of the R&D expense of development in both cases. Both had relatively the same schedule and faced the same development and capital hurdles in the same time frame. Both need to develop new production facilities. Both had low initial production vehicle pricing for those that wanted to reserve a vehicle with no upward adjustments along the path to production. The customer base of both vehicles held out/is holding out hope for no or little price increase.

Where it is an apples and oranges comparison is Tesla has the financial strength for wiggle room in pricing where Aptera does not.

Aptera will not have a 75% price differential. But if there are Aptera fans that don’t think Aptera will have a price increase, they are disregarding the facts of the automobile business.

[Greek]

I have yet to hear any APTERA reservation holders use the Cybertruck as a backup purchase. Yes they are both new, and yes there maybe some pressure to cover price inflation on APTERA’s bottom line. I would venture to say that the Cybertruck has at least more than twice the parts and has had such a huge delay to figure how to put it together. APTERA went through a total body change just over a year ago. I would expect pieces to fit more like a jigsaw puzzle. Not having any welds and massive robots and their expense is quite different from what Tesla is doing. I have huge faith in this new means of production that APTERA is following with the guidance of both CPC and Sandy Munro along with their core of talented young dedicated engineers.

I also have to go with what Chris Anthony has been reflecting in terms of final price. In his last interview he ball parked it at $35k with the starting price of $26k for the base. Not sure why we are even having this discussion with price. I am convinced that APTERA is trying to satisfy its supporters of which many are not able to budget for an expensive vehicle. APTERA after all is being developed to help climate change, not just for the wealthy to have.

[BBP]

The other hopefully apples to oranges comparator are feature downgrades. I recall that the fully loaded ct was >500 miles of range and bulletproof, which are the only two features I remember this happening to but I would be surprised if there were not others. Charging more for less is a recipe for disaster. In the best of times a company can raise prices for the same product or embrace shrinkflation, but this is both. People will laugh at seeing both ct and aptera, but I will only go through with an aptera purchase, hoping the option becomes available, if I will feel that people are laughing at me as well as the car. Cant see how any ct purchaser won’t feel that they are the target of laughter.

[Biker]

The main takeaway for Aptera customers from the Cybertruck reveal is the timing of the price announcement (at first delivery) not the actual level (which should be much closer to current MSRP).

[john-trotter]

From the Cybertruck delivery, there were things that might be worth thinking about:

Similarities:

– “The future should look like the future”

– efficiency – EM repeated it over and over. (Aptera wins, big time!)

– distributed controls to reduce weight and complexity

– CT bed: 6 feet by 4 feet. Aptera: same?

– Giga-castings/forgings to reduce piece count: CT Aluminum, Aptera carbon fiber.

– no external paint.

Ideas for future Aptera models:

– 48vdc (less gain for our smaller vehicle)

– steer-by-wire

– sound-deadening glass

The Tesla themes for the Cybertruck were: Toughness / Utility / Technology / Performance. With a bit more demonstration from crash and performance tests on PI vehicles, these should also work for Aptera.

[john-malcom]

Big price increase and Failure to achieve target range

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/tesla-fans-frustrated-musk-reveal-223842692.html

• This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by  John Malcom. Reason: corrected spelling
• This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.

[joshua-rosen]

The pricing is in line with other trucks including comparable ICE
trucks. The range for the two motor version exceeded it’s target, was
300 now it’s 340. So I don’t see why people are unhappy. The one place
where they missed the mark is on three motor version. It was supposed to
have a 500 miles of range, now it’s only 323. The Cybertruck will be
fine for anyone who doesn’t need to do long distance towing, if you want
to drag a barn behind you then your only choice is the Silverado with
it’s 212KWh battery but then you are stuck driving around with an extra
ton of batteries even when you don’t need them.

[Biker]

This sounds similar to what Aptera is doing:

Tesla Patents Modular Wiring System That Will Make a Wiring Harness and CAN Bus Obsolete – autoevolution

[adrian-delisser]

It certainly does.

[wingsounds13]

I’ve wondered why Aptera isn’t using Ethernet. It is much faster than CAN Bus and can be made to be quite robust. If needed, CAN bus can be used in critical areas, but Tesla doesn’t seem to see the need.

[john-malcom]

A BIG blow to the reputation of Tesla’s self driving technology, millions of U.S. Tesla’s are being recalled for the self driving feature. The Full Self Driving (FSD) feature at $12,000 up charge has been under investigation as a factor in fatal crashes for some time.

Neither of our two Tesla’s, one replaced with a Bolt now were equipped with FSD as we thought the value proposition for a 12K feature seldom used, was there.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-recalls-2-million-vehicles-over-issue-with-autopilot-what-to-know/

[john-malcom]

Early in this iteration of Aptera a member of the senior staff of Aptera said that an Aptera could float. It seems that Tesla took the hint and not wanting to be “One up’d” made Cyber Truck capable of swimming. Here is a post describing it frolicking in the serf. 😜

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/viewers-stunned-beach-goer-captures-140000936.html

[CGSMT]

I wonder if any vehicle with that clearance and tires could do that. It was only about 6-7 inches of water. Any regular exposure to salt water seems like a bad idea of course.

[john-malcom]

Agreed! Certainly foolish to expose a vehicle to salt water. Wouldn’t ford anything deeper than to floor boards. A typical Tesla exaggeration?

[george-hughes]

This video details the launch of a new product that may have implications for Aptera.

One of the aspects of the cybertruck is the fidelity of its panels and dimensions that comes from its use of mega-castings and stainless steel exoskeleton.

The innovator in this case is a wrap shop that happened to get a commission to wrap one of the first ten Cybertrucks and they did the whole nine-yards with laser scanning, etc. to design the wrap. The video tells it better.

The implication for Aptera is because of the extremely limited tolerances of its body build, it too can spawn new products. It may not be a wrap kit – unlike the Cybertruck, Aptera has ‘curves’ which are more difficult to wrap with precision – but the extreme cookie-cutter character of the product begs entrepreneurs to play.

[Markus]

Some people hate there are (close to) no buttons to do things you do when using a car. Now there is a 3rd party aftermarket gadget that has some buttons, but apparently only for less imortant and not safety relevant tasks. No blinker button, no wiper button, nottons for the lights as it seems. However, you can open the frunk with one of these buttons – hopefully locked while driving 😱😂

[george-hughes]

This is pretty clever. I suspect there may be a way, either through blutooth, wifi or a hard-wired connection, to establish a series of buttons, the function of which would probably be assignable in the software. This is computing/electronics and it is almost, by definition, doable.

To me, it is at most a matter of time such ancillary items become available; as they are right now for the Tesla. I suspect that some of the accelerator program vehicles were purchased by after-market product makers that become ‘deductible” as the vehicle becomes a platform for ancillary product development.

Of course, at this moment, there is little interest because, well, it ain’t a reality yet! But if the Aptera becomes the first ‘generational vehicle’, interest in producing enhancements follows as compatibility over time is part of the proposition meaning the installed base of vehicles will only continue to grow, and with that, the opportunity for new items … like buttons.

My favorite would be a rocker switch on the doors for the windows.