Tesla News

[george-hughes]

More talk in the tesla crowd about the threat Aptera poses in the ‘economy car’ segment I refer to as a transportation appliance to differentiate between the old gas-powered/hybrid/even small EV economy cars and a vehicle designed for ultra-efficiency.

The articles shown suggest this prospect for at least some of the investors – and that Tesla will have to buy Aptera to maintain its image as the most efficient vehicle manufacturer overall.

Here’s the article: https://www.torquenews.com/14335/tesla-will-have-buy-aptera

And here’s the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InqlVcOxw68

I think that people have been a little reluctant, on the basis of potential competition by Tesla’s third generation economy vehicle slated for robo taxi service when FSD is available.

The cool thing is that Aptera will have at least a two year lead to market and we’ll see soon enough how competitive Aptera will be. The fans boys in the articles appear to suggest, Aptera will easily remain in the lead.

[Greek]

I have always felt that Tesla would buy out APTERA through share acquisitions. APTERA’s production methods will change manufacturing forever. The big 4 will fight change in manufacturing all the way until they realize they themselves need to change how they build. My biggest fear is that Teslas takes control of APTERA with the purpose of shutting them down. If there is to be a Tesla acquisition, I hope it’s after my 3 APTERA’s are delivered to me.

Wondering how many Tesla owners are investing in APTERA?

For speculators not even interested in purchasing an APTERA, it maybe a good early long term investment to purchase some APTERA shares.

[george-hughes]

Chris, Steve and the bunch have had their dream ‘bought/stolen’ and killed once before.

The funny thing is if this market segment I identify as a transportation appliance will eventually become a robotaxi attacking the idle rate of vehicular capital at 95% (cars are idle 95% of the time) leaves me with the impression, to be confirmed a week from today, that Aptera has the better package for that including the fact that you can build them today, lease them and when the lease is over, remanufacture them with the latest self-driving capability five or ten years hence at the end of the first lease.

It is the remanufacturing and sustainability of the Aptera platform, particularly if coupled with a proliferation of mini-assembly plants – more than a hundred in the US and easily as many world-wide; all supplied by subsystem suppliers, some of which make new stuff and others that repair and remanufacture subsystems culled from Aptera with obsolete components.

The point is the binc, with its generational lifetime, remains the same because it is an expensive, long-lasting component that it is EASY to take apart and remanufacture with updated tech, batteries and solar panels – when the current designs become obsolete.

Having all those small assembly plants everywhere integrates the assembly into the country and expands the manufacturing capability of the nation with a lean-design factory floor.

Heck, you can imagine third-parties making complete subsystems with exciting new capabilities and Aptera offering these items as OEM or add-on equipment easily installed as a subsystem.

[john-malcom]

Tesla would have no interest in Aptera. Tesla will have a small, cheap, EV ready for market by the time Aptera starts production in 2024. The Tesla production process is locked in and in its own right is revolutonalry. (Mega presses) The production process used by Aptera would not work in Tesla production facilities. Tesla is vertically integrated making much of the vehicle on site where Aptera assembles modules built somewhere else.

When I visited BYD’s R&D facility in Shenzen, I saw a presentation on the Tesla 25K EV. It is pretty close! BYD may provide their blade batteries for Tesla use.

[george-hughes]

I agree totally, Tesla has no interest other than possibly to kill Aptera as it raises the bar of competition in the arena of efficiency.

I’m just getting a kick out of the reactions of the Tesla fan boys to real competition. I mean they’re used to lame response of GM 🙂

So you’ve seen a close approximation of the vehicle. I’m sure it uses giga-castings and primarily aluminum body panels, but what kind of efficiency? Any guesses?

[john-malcom]

From what I have seen in paid for competitive analysis conducted for a current vehicle manufacturer transitioning to electric vehicles, Tesla’s production is all over the map. The factors are geographical location, (Shanghai the worst because of COVID interruptions) Germany second worst, TX to new to measure accurately and it will be the site of some new models so should be excluded. CA the best. Excluding shanghai, all are more efficient that the current vehicle manufacturing based on a metrics of time and cost and process. The significant advantages of Tesla, good vertical integration, and especially the giga presses. Tesla efficiency is increasing, especially with the fielding of giga presses. Convention manufacturing of EV vehicles, static. The discriminator is that Tesla started with a clean sheet, legacy are trying to convert from ICE manufacturing and manufacturing control systems.

Sorry, proprietary data so can’t provide numbers. The other statistically signifant factor is model. Another interesting observation in the analysis. Build quality is poor. I know that was the case with my M3 which I got rid of.

• This reply was modified 7 months, 1 week ago by  John Malcom. Reason: correct spelling

[george-hughes]

Sounds to me their transportation appliance, while probably better than the competition, will not be a leap beyond Aptera’s BinC in any stretch of the imagination.

I think that Aptera’s approach with mini assembly plants and centralized subsystem manufacture will scale admirably and, with most of the capitalization already in place in the hands of third parties, some of which are already Aptera suppliers.

The mini-assembly plants can largely be financed locally by local development authorities which also will minimize the capital needed to expand the assembly operations geographically.

I think socially, this distributed approach to assembly makes re-manufacture of the near indestructible BinC allowing both hardware and software updating escaping that killer of value depreciation due to obsolescence.

Think of it this way, if my mythical leasing company placed 50,000 Aptera in consumer hands and now 10,000 are ending their five year lease. Isn’t it cool the leasing company has a vehicle that with a $6,000 upgrade to its nav sensors, can operate as a robo-taxi. New seats and a redesign of the dash with a credit card machine and no steering wheel, you have an instant robo taxi for a fraction of the cost.

But nothing can happen or will happen until Aptera gets into production. Then things get really exciting!

[curtis-cibinel]

Lets face it this reporting is crazy speculative. They suggested Aptera should buy Tesla not for technology but for simple manufacturing space. Much as I believe Aptera has a strong future I struggle to see one in which it would increase its valuation by a minimum of 1000x or more to be in a position to purchase Tesla.

[john-malcom]

Article and reference to a YouTube post on experience charging a non-Tesla EV at a Tesla Super Charger. It appears that Tesla will charge a higher rate for non-Tesla vehicle charging. Makes sense to appease Tesla owners who now need to deal with growing congestion as more vehicles attempt to use super charger stations. Really good imbedded YouTube video! Watch for the experiece of several non-Tesla vehicles trying to charge at a Tesla Super Charger. At this location, most EVs are non-Tesla.

https://autos.yahoo.com/charge-non-tesla-tesla-supercharger-220000221.html

• This reply was modified 7 months ago by  John Malcom. Reason: added sentence
• This reply was modified 6 months, 3 weeks ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.

[joshua-rosen]

The rate is very close to the EA price, you can also buy the price down with subscription just like EA.

[Mike-Mars]

The subscription is probably not worth it for Aptera. The saving is $0.10c/kWh, and the subscription costs $12.99/m, which means you’d regularly need to charge $130+ each month to break even. I can imagine that an F150 could easily use that much power. If you DC charged a 40kWh Aptera that frequently, you’d probably kill the battery.

[curtis-cibinel]

I’m fine with Tesla charging a reasonable premium but the big question for Aptera is what chargers we will have access too. Most charging is at home (or solar) anyway so paying roughly 1/3rd the price of a gas econobox per mile to supercharge the aptera is still a drop in the bucket overall. We all hope the entire network will be open since we have the NACS plug but until Aptera or Tesla state this clearly I think we need to assume we may be limited to magicdock equipped chargers (despite not needing or wanting the adapter)

Watching the video in the link it is really funny that the F150 would have reached far more easily if they simply had hinged the charge door on the other side. It will barely reach if parked extremely precisely.

[john-malcom]

I think a many things to be clarified about using Tesla super chargers. I suspect you are correct about us being able to use only the superchargers modified for general EV charging, a subset of avaialble superchargers. The number, TBD. I am wondering if we will need to use the Tesla app or if using Tesla chargers will be incorporated into the Aptera app. Then the question of connectors. The Tesla connector alone, or one or more adapters required. It is frustrating that Aptera either doesn’t know yet or will not enlighten us about super charger charging of the Aptera after the euphoria of annoucing the adaption of NACS (To include the CCS protocol) for Aptera

For me, (Recovering Tesla owner/driver) it would not be worth it to have a membership for the number of times I would use a super charger to charge my Aptera for all of my potential use cases.

[john-malcom]

US Investigates Tesla Over Steering Wheels Falling Off Model Y EVs

For all those that think yokes are a safety hazzard, the government is investigating Tesla for some steering wheels falling off. They are not investigating yokes😉

https://www.pcmag.com/news/us-investigates-tesla-over-steering-wheels-falling-off-model-y-evs

[Markus]

LOL, that’s true! And also shortly after Nissan, again steeing wheels “falling off”, not yokes!

I have a hunch that the term “steering wheel falling off” has been redefined either by the NHTSA or whomever.

[john-malcom]

I meant in jest. The problems with steering wheels falling off is a build QA issue not because it is a steering wheel vs. a yoke or some other device.

I didn’t know about Nissan

I am arecovering Tesla owner. Their build quality is notoriously bad.

[john-malcom]

The Tesla Model Y was the best selling car in the world in Q1 of 2023. Not just the best selling EV, but the best selling car period.

http://www.yahoo.com/news/tesla-had-worlds-top-selling-170236073.html

[craig-merrow]

Wow, that is impressive! And some people think EV’s are just a passing fad – ha!

[john-malcom]

In addition to the recent price reduction (Cheapest Model 3 down to 42K) for U.S. Model 3’s, all recent Model 3’s and also Model Y’s are eligible for the full $7,500 tax incentive. Theoretically, the “Cheap” Model 3 would net out at around $34,500

https://news.yahoo.com/even-the-cheapest-tesla-model-3-now-qualifies-for-the-full-7500-tax-credit-112145637.html

• This reply was modified 3 months, 4 weeks ago by  John Malcom. Reason: corrected spelling
• This reply was modified 3 months, 4 weeks ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.

[joshua-rosen]

Because Aptera doesn’t get any Federal or State credits they ought to revisit their battery choice. CATL has introduced two batteries recently that are significantly ahead of anything that’s available in the US. They have an LFP+Manganese battery that closes most of gap between LFPs and NMCs. The more interesting battery is their Qilin battery that’s 500Wh/KG. With that battery the 1000 mile Aptera is back on the table or at least something close like an 800 mile version with a pack that’s the same size and weight as the LE’s 400 mile pack. Aptera is so late to market that they’ll need something that really stands out and 800 mile range would be it. The decision to use an off brand battery was predicated on last years battery availability, the world has changed and it will have changed even more by the time they can start shipments next year so this one decision is thing they should revisit. If not for the LE then soon after.

[john-malcom]

Agreed! Not sure how much financial burden to get out of current battery provider contract or amount of reengineering necessary, but certainly worth a tradeoff analysis. Certainly a follow on Aptera should look at a change of batteries either near term or the latest, midterm. Otherwise lose the mantle of EV tech leader/most efficient.

[curtis-cibinel]

Aptera does get some state incentives. This is what the recent email blast was about. That said the Model 3 pricing definitely puts it firmly into the price range that buyers will be comparing the pros/cons.

Regarding a battery transition I 100% agree that Aptera should examine all possibilities but this is not a cheap and easy change. On paper it looks like the volume and weight of sodium could be accommodated in the space needed for the 1000 mile and still have up to 500 miles of range; this would be amazing since it would still be one of the longest range EVs but use the cheapest and most environmentally responsible battery possible. I strongly believe that Aptera knows about the alternatives and engineers are chomping at the bit to do these kinds of interesting projects but the company doesn’t have the R&D budget right now. One limitation of both LFP and most sodium cells is they don’t like to exceed 2c which would power limit the 3wd motors by ~30% and likely slow 0-60 by 1-2 seconds (worse for anything smaller than 45 kwh). Slowing the performance would reduce the appeal for those looking at Aptera as an affordable sports car.

[joshua-rosen]

Sodium might make sense for the 250 mile version. The logical thing for them to do is to keep the size and weight of the battery pack the same as the current 42KWh pack and use different battery technologies to build longer range or cheaper variants. By keeping the pack the same weight they don’t have to reengineer any of the mechanical systems., changes are limited to just the pack and BMS software. Designing for multiple battery technologies up front would give them a lot of flexibility in the future , not only to adopt new technologies as they come along but more importantly to deal with supply chain issues. Tesla switches battery types on what seems like a weekly basis, this has given them a big advantage over the legacy companies who don’t seem to have any flexibility (I’m looking at you Chevy, when LG batteries were catching fire they shut down production for many months rather than switch to something else).

[john-malcom]

The 25K Tesla is here, but a Model 3, and ownly if bought in CA. With Tesla tweaking its battery supply, Model 3’s qualify for the $7,500 Federal tax incentive and depending on the buyers qualifications may qualify for a CA $7,500 incentive.

My 2019 Tesla Model 3 (No longer with me) cost much more than that 😤

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/us-confirms-tesla-model-3-140131346.html

• This reply was modified 3 months, 3 weeks ago by  John Malcom. Reason: fixed link
• This reply was modified 3 months, 3 weeks ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.

[Miles]

I find it strange that no one has commented on this. During a phone conversation with with a friend (yes, for those of you who doubt, I do have one) he asked if I’d watched the news. I replied that I watch the news every day, probably why I have these nervous tics. He went on to tell me about a report Reuters did about Teslas not living up to their battery range claims and sent me a link.

I just read the article (haven’t yet watched the video) which is why I’m here. It’s a very interesting and damning article that shows how easy it can be for a company to make themselves less relevant. Kind of like letting the press preview a car that isn’t complete. A couple of faux pas like that and it might be better to pick up your marbles and go home.

Here’s the link: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-batteries-range/

Maybe this belongs in the thread that talks about dreams but yes, I do have a dream about winning the lottery and making $100,000,000 available to put the Aptera in production. Right now things seem a little shaky. Even if they went into full scale production tomorrow they would still be a little behind the news.

By the way, that same friend said he’d seen an ad for Aptera. I didn’t know there were any.

• This reply was modified 2 months ago by  Miles Hunter. Reason: typo
• This reply was modified 2 months ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.
• This reply was modified 2 months ago by  Miles Hunter. Reason: typo