Aptera doesn't have level 2 charging

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Aptera doesn't have level 2 charging

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Aptera doesn't have level 2 charging

  • Aptera doesn't have level 2 charging

     Ray Holan updated 1 month, 3 weeks ago 23 Members · 71 Posts
  • Curtis Cibinel

    Member
    February 14, 2022 at 9:32 pm

    I just noticed a usability detail that I suspect most haven’t; it appears Aptera effectively doesn’t have any level 2 charging (it has level 1 or 3)

    Website FAQ:

    How quickly does Aptera charge?

    From the sun, you get up to about 40 miles per day. From a 110 V cord (like what you’d charge your cell phone on) you get 13 miles an hour or about 150 miles of charge overnight. At roadside charging stations you’d likely get about 100 miles in 10 minutes

    Google Sheet FAQ:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11Of3g6RYqstbXecs7j2UHHd_b8s5MebxEs-ZwkyMiiQ/edit#gid=1847163171

    What is the on-board AC charging rate?

    We haven’t chosen a supplier yet but likely 1.5kW or less.

    Level 1 charging: best of any EV by a Longshot (efficiency)

    Level 2 charging : exactly the same as level 1. Could be less than half the miles per hour as a tesla

    Level 3 charging : Theoretically half the rate as an ideal tesla supercharger but likely more like 80% as good in the real world.

    Based on these the on-board inverter for AC essentially can’t handle any more than 120v/12 amps (a standard level 1 wall plug) – 1.5 kw max. For comparison Tesla models range from 7.7 to 11.5 kw max with AC charging (level 2). The aptera seems like it won’t get much (or any?) benefit from Nema 14-50 or other home AC based chargers; as far as I know no DC options exist for home install. Even with the Aptera’s amazing efficiency (about 2.5-3x that of a model 3) this means that anyone planning to charge at home will get about half the range overnight as a Tesla model 3 long range (assuming a 60 amp / 48 amp sustained capacity level 2 charger is installed). This also means “destination” and home charging may be a lot slower than some are expecting. Personally it’s more than enough anyway and not needing an electrician is a great advantage.

    I’d love to be proven wrong of I’m misinterpreting this. Essentially Aptera will have less overnight range than other Evs overnight at home (assuming electrical upgrades) and gets less range per hour from destination chargers. I still think it’s probably fine and solar will help but it’s something I could see most people missing.

    Level 3 (dc) charging is 50kw. This effectively charges “miles” into an Aptera at a slightly lower speed than a Tesla supercharger aswell but basically any DC charger achieves this speed. It would seem to reason with its large battery (for upper models) and comparatively underpowered 50 kw speed that the dropoff over 80% could be far less (this is why a 250 kw supercharger is only 2 minutes faster than a 200 kw).

    Source for tesla inverter capacity : https://www.tesla.com/support/home-charging-installation/onboard-charger

    Ps: My phone is at 2% and I didn’t want to lose this. Sorry if the order is a mess.

    • This discussion was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by  Curtis Cibinel.
    • This discussion was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by  Curtis Cibinel.
  • Robert Klasson

    Member
    February 15, 2022 at 12:24 am

    Hopefully the 1.5 kW is just for 110 V. On row 267 the google FAQ sheet still quotes 30 miles/hour from a 220 V line, so perhaps it’s just the current that is limited to 16 A, which would probably get you between 1.5 kW and 1.6 kW after conversion and heat losses on 110 V and 3+ kW on 220 V.

    They may also have confused it with the optional 110 V utility inverter, since it has been stated for a long time as “Yes, likely not more than 1.5kW though.”

    I really hope they don’t make the vehicle too much of a bottle neck when it comes to AC charging. It’s a lot easier to find a L2 destination charger than a DCFC. If they think 1.5 kW AC charging is enough, more of them need to drive (non-Tesla) EV’s so they learn to appreciate diversity when it comes to viable charging options.

    I hope they even go for at least 16 A 3-phase AC (11 kW) in markets like Europe where 3-phase is common.

  • Curtis Cibinel

    Member
    February 15, 2022 at 1:05 am

    The website FAQ and spreadsheet have some inconsistencies. It definitely seems like the website faq should describe the max level 2 capability if it exists. It feels like maybe the specs are up in the air and without knowing which answer is newer we don’t know what to trust. 30 miles per hour with a level 2 would be about 3 kw and about the same or more miles per hour as the higher capacity tesla ac charging.

    Another angle of this is if we end up with a Tesla plug and supercharger access the good dc charge options would outweigh the weak level 2 charging for most people.

  • Riley ________________________________

    Member
    February 15, 2022 at 1:45 am

    I’ve never charged my model 3 with 220, only 110 with supercharging on weekends. I wouldn’t even notice if aptera didn’t have level 2. I hope it does have it for those who need it tho.

  • Joshua Rosen

    Member
    February 15, 2022 at 4:58 am

    The spreadsheet says 6.6KW. Anything less than that is a complete non-starter. Would prefer 7.2KW which is the most common rate for J1772 EVSEs but 6.6 would be tolerable because it’s fast enough to do an 80% charge of the 60KWh battery in about 8 hours. If they do build the 100KWh version they should put in an 11KW charger so that you could do an 80% charge in the aforementioned 8 hours.

    • Curtis Cibinel

      Member
      February 15, 2022 at 7:59 am

      The answers (especially in the spreadsheet) contradict themselves. They don’t mention level 2 at all in many cases even in questions like below with level 2 in the question (which led to my original conclusion), others mention 30 miles per hour (3.3 kw), and some leave it up in the air it might be 6.6. I think someone at Aptera needs to review the various FAQs and either say consistently it’s undecided or reflect the current specs. The website should be the best source (as it will obviously get the most eyes) but it answers less questions and for some reason has duplicates.

      How long will it take to fully charge with a standard plug in? What is your charge rate on Level 2? What about Level 3?

      From a 110v cord (like what you’d charge your cell phone on) you get 13 miles an hour or about 150 miles of charge overnight. At roadside charging stations you’d likely get about 100 miles in 10 minutes.

  • Peter Jorgensen

    Member
    February 15, 2022 at 7:33 am

    Stop jumping to conclusions! We know pretty much nothing at this point. These guys own and drive many EVs and have a good handle on things. I trust them. A lot more than Ford or GM.

    • Ray Holan

      Moderator
      February 15, 2022 at 7:43 am

      I learned my lesson from the long thread re: Aptera vinyl wrapping vs. painting the vehicle. Turns out that decision is still up in the air. I suspect the charging conundrum falls into the same category.

      • John Malcom

        Member
        February 15, 2022 at 9:08 am

        Really good point. I got myself embroidered in that one. Best to wait until announced by Aptera and not speculate

        • Curtis Cibinel

          Member
          February 15, 2022 at 9:32 am

          As I said I’d love to be proven wrong.

          Assuming they are planning on having atleast 3.3KW level 2 charging this simply highlights a communication problem. If they haven’t really decided yet their is absolutely nothing wrong with answering the question by saying that. Related equipment adds cost and weight so I really don’t think the 11 KW that Joshua wants for overnight full charging the 1000 mile will happen. The various FAQ sources should be reviewed, updated to fully address question and be internally consistent. The fact they have a FAQ question that specifically asks about level 2 but their own answer ignores it is a problem. Many Aptera owners will either want faster home charging or already have the infrastructure from existing EVs; I’m perfectly fine with 110V charging (and the odd DC on trips) for my purposes.

          • John Malcom

            Member
            February 15, 2022 at 11:45 am

            Downloadable spec sheet under “Vehicles” shows only two ways to charge neither of which is level II. The spec sheet has an error for external color so I guess the charging section could have an error as well. But……I think Curtis is right (As usual). At least at this point no level II charging. We will see what the final result is.

        • Scott Price

          Member
          February 15, 2022 at 10:05 am

          John and Ray, the officially communicated plan of record was definitely vinyl wraps and company representative Audra directly confirmed that again in the long thread. However, to Aptera’s credit, they then (afterwards) apparently listened to the many concerns about that earlier decision and are now revisiting it. Without those inputs, there is no reason to believe that the decision was “up in the air”. I am definitely not trying to spin up another discussion about it on this separate thread. My broader point is that well reasoned customer (reservation holder) and investor feedback was listened to (kudos to Aptera), so the discussion was very beneficial for the many folks who remain concerned about that older decision. Curtis just brings up some knowledgeable points on a different topic that are at least worth getting clarity around.

  • Kayleigh Venne

    Administrator
    February 15, 2022 at 3:41 pm

    Hi! Aptera does support Level 2 charging. You will get about 30 miles an hour from a Level 2 charger. The lighter packs should use less energy but we are still testing to publish more accurate numbers all around.

    • larry kaiser

      Member
      February 15, 2022 at 4:31 pm

      Kayleigh Venne says that Aptera does support Level 2 charging. She says you will get 30 miles an hour from a level 2 charger. That is less than 1/2 of what a level 2 charger can provide. Why is that and what can we do about it?

      • Curtis Cibinel

        Member
        February 15, 2022 at 7:18 pm

        Clearly the level 2 is 3.3 kw. Given the efficiency this is equivalent in terms of range per hour with tesla options (and if you pay per kw it’s cheap)

      • kerbe2705

        Member
        February 15, 2022 at 7:48 pm

        We were told during a webinar that all of the “charging speed” decisions were going to be made with heat in mind as a still Aptera has no way to shed the heat produced by the batteries and charger. That’s why they were planning to stick with 50 kW DC charging and a 3.3 kW (although I recall them saying 3.2 kW…) onboard charger for AC charging.

        And, yes: The Google Drive FAQ is full of inconsistencies. Perhaps a few of the Ambassadors should have a go at marking them for correction: It’s pretty obvious that everyone at Aptera is more than busy at the moment!

        • Scott Price

          Member
          February 15, 2022 at 8:07 pm

          Yeah, that old, hidden Google Drive spreadsheet does not appear to have been updated in a long time. It’s likely a “historical document” at this point, especially since Aptera does maintain a FAQs page on the public website (https://aptera.us/faq). There is still some good reference info in the spreadsheet, though I would not assume it is all current or correct.

    • Daniel Oneil

      Member
      May 5, 2022 at 4:26 am

      So if you get the lowest range model at 250 miles, then even that one is a no go for long distance traveling. Truly just a commuter then unless you get the 600 mile or 1,000 mile versions. Can’t wait to see the charging curve in hot, cold weather and SOC.

      • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by  Daniel Oneil.
      • Harry Parker

        Moderator
        May 5, 2022 at 1:08 pm

        Daniel, how do you figure that 25 KWH, 250 mile version is no good for any longer trips?

        How long are your trips?

        The way I figure it, you leave on your trip starting at 100% charge. After going 90% of range (up to 225 miles) fast charging back up from 10% to 80% will take 70% of 25 KWH, or 17.5 KWH (175 mile added range, not including the solar boost). At a 50 KW fast charger that takes about 17.5/50 = 0.35 hours = 21 minutes, after over 3 hours of driving — a nice rest stop.

        The 400 mile version could take you that much further between charges, but then require longer to recharge to 80%.

        My longest trips are almost never more than 4 hours of driving per day, about 250 miles, usually with over a half hour stop for a meal along the way.

        Writing this, I’m talking myself out of the 600 mile version I reserved into the 400 mile version.

        • Curtis Cibinel

          Member
          May 5, 2022 at 1:17 pm

          400 seems by far the most popular. It would be great to know the statistics as almost everyone seems to be going with that level. Its cheap enough to add a little more range over a standard range tesla and it accounts for perhaps higher losses from things like cabin heating.

  • Lauren Brimmer Brimmer

    Member
    February 15, 2022 at 8:20 pm

    So glad you started this discussion…. I too had noticed the FAQ, but thought I’d heard Co-CEO Chris express some ‘still undecided’ type thoughts, so discounted, since a number of items on the FAQ are drifting a bit as things continue to move quickly.

    My 2 cents is that most of my charging will be done in my garage, and I was hoping to use the L2 charger I installed when I leased a compliance car Fiat 500e. SDG&E (among others) offer much cheaper overnight rates and 110v speed only get me 13 x 6 = 78 miles range during their window. In the summer, charging outside those hours could raise cost by a factor of 6! I expect a lot of EV early adopters are in similar straights, but given how few that really is, it may not warrant L2 as a standard offering.

    Regardless of what I’ll call the installed base of chargers, L2 charging is cheaper for most people to install at home. For example, we had enough space on our electrical panel to facilitate L2 for <$500. Adding a panel for Tesla-type charging would be $thousands. Apartment owners and business owners are also far more able to install L2.

    Discussion anyone?

    • kerbe2705

      Member
      February 15, 2022 at 9:37 pm

      “Tesla-type charging”? The Tesla Wall Connector for home use (essentially identical to the Tesla Destination Charger” found at some hotels, etc.) is a 48 Amp unit – so all you need is a 50 Amp breaker, a 50 Amp line and a NEMA 14-50 outlet. That’s not going to cost thousands of dollars or require an extra electrical panel – unless your current service isn’t capable of providing the power. Most modern homes (or older homes that have been brought up to Code) should have at least 200 Amp service.

      • Joshua Rosen

        Member
        February 16, 2022 at 5:39 am

        The Tesla Wall Connector requires a 60A line, not 50A. It’s a 48A EVSE which by code requires a 60A line. I have a Tesla and a ClipperCreek J1772 EVSE. The ClipperCreek is a 32A EVSE so it required a 40A line. When I put in the ClipperCreek I upgraded my service to 200A and replaced the panel. the old one was a fire hazard and needed to be replaced. My electrician had been telling me to replace it for the the last 30 years, putting in the EVSE was the push I needed to actually do it.

        My costs were as follows. The new panel and service was $2800, running a 40A line and installing the ClipperCreek was $375 (the ClipperCreek was $650). Installing the Tesla EVSE cost me $750 to run a 60A line plus $500 for the Tesla Wall Connector. The reason that running the line for the ClipperCreek was only $375 was because it was part of the bigger panel job. The Tesla installation was done a several years later.

  • Curtis Cibinel

    Member
    February 15, 2022 at 8:32 pm

    As a Strata member that spent 6 months getting approval for a single nema-1430 and related charging agreement ( $30 flat fee) I definitely disagree. We have almost 350 stalls across 13 acres and 20 buildings (including groups of detached garage). It would cost several million dollars to provide stall level level 2 charging for all stalls (including new service transformers). We have some infrastructure due to existing garages but the circuits suck (designed for garage openers and lights) and load sharing tech isn’t reliably available to add over time. Due to lcp designations we can’t move people’s parking and do zones at a time. Dedicated charge stalls are expensive and waste spaces. Nothing is simple.

    Ps: wow 6x… That’s a nuts time of use difference.

    • kerbe2705

      Member
      February 15, 2022 at 9:40 pm

      Not everyone needs to charge every day – so there really shouldn’t be a need to provide L2 service at every parking spot in a lot. I mean there isn’t a gas pump for every ICE vehicle on the road…

      • Curtis Cibinel

        Member
        February 15, 2022 at 9:50 pm

        Yes but providing service to random stalls across 13 acres with parking lots, trees and buildings in the way is hard. We need to figure out how to build a basic conduit infrastructure and add stalls over time in essentially random places. The problem is that load sharing devices are proprietary and getting compatible devices over the 15 year transition to EVs from the same or a compatible vendor isnt possible. Basically it is inevitable waste and stupidly expensive to retrofit existing complexes (other than those that exclusively have underground parking).

        https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.8433702,-119.4818595,481m/data=!3m1!1e3

        Note The grey, brown and tan roofs are the complex.

        • kerbe2705

          Member
          February 16, 2022 at 6:21 am

          Have you considered simply installing NEMA 14-50 receptacles on or near structures that already have 220 V service? EV owners could then provide their own EVSE equipment. All Tesla vehicles come with a portable 110/220 V EVSE – although I know that many non-Teslas provide only 110 V “granny cables”, but there are many aftermarket units available. There’s no great need for load sharing when there’s “outlet turn-taking”…

          • Curtis Cibinel

            Member
            February 16, 2022 at 9:09 am

            Yes however everything is assigned spaces (registered with land titles so expensive to change), breakers have very limited capacity (which is why load sharing devices are needed and the current install is a NEMA14-30) and we have owners that are paranoid the strata will end up footing electrical bills for peoples charging (subsidizing the rich). A dedicated charger with usage billing would cost ~$10,000 to buy/install and will either get ICE’d or used as a dedicated parking stall by the people with EVs (we dont have enough parking in general). The best strategy would be to add capacity and load sharing devices over time but since all load sharing devices are proprietary we cant reliably expect to be able to purchase compatible devices over 15-20 years. It took 6 months to get the one approval / fee agreement (didn’t cost the strata anything but time) and some owners are petitioning to kill that.

  • Peter Jorgensen

    Member
    February 16, 2022 at 7:13 am

    Direct from the current FAQ:

    Aptera can be charged and travel up to 1,000 miles in range by plugging into a standard 100 V or 220 V outlet. Aptera will also be compatible with CCS, J1772, Level 2 and CHAdeMO/ DC Fast Charge stations. We believe Tesla has some of the best EV technology in the industry and we hope to partner with them as well in the future.

    • Curtis Cibinel

      Member
      February 16, 2022 at 9:25 am

      Compatible doesn’t meant it gets the power any faster than level 1; FAQ answers are vargue or inconsistent. That said, Kayleigh confirmed we will have level 2 at 30 miles per hour (3.3 kw).

      This is about the same “miles” per hour as a tesla (which receive kw faster but are less efficient). If a new circuit is needed and the breaker space is limited stick to NEMA 14-30 as that will provide more than enough for this limit.

      • Peter Jorgensen

        Member
        February 16, 2022 at 11:23 am

        3.3kw is great! Good enough my use! I wonder if it would be feasible to build a portable ccs onboard charger to accept 16kw tesla destination chargers in a sort of pseudo-fast-charger system for trips to rural areas?

      • Joshua Rosen

        Member
        February 16, 2022 at 11:31 am

        I can’t believe they will only have 3.3KW charging, if they do then I won’t be buying one. The important metric is how long it takes to fill the battery not how many miles you get in an hour. You need to be able to charge the battery overnight and 3.3KW won’t cut it for the 60KWh and especially the 100KWh battery. The big advantage of this car is that you can drive all day without having to stop at a charger, you don’t have to plan your stops around the availability of chargers. As long has you have a place to plug in overnight you can start every day with over 500 miles of range. 3.3KW won’t do that for you, it will take over 16 hours to put 50KWh into the battery. The spreadsheet says 3.3 or 6.6, the 6.6 number is the right one to pick because that will do a full charge in 8 hours.

        • Peter Jorgensen

          Member
          February 16, 2022 at 11:37 am

          Why? Total deal breaker? Really? If it’s open source enough maybe you can get a bigger one? 3.3kw is a lot cheaper and lighter than 6.6kw or 7.2kw. I think this mostly applies to the 25kwh and 40kwh cars.
          I’d love a 16kw OBC to use for trips but 3.3 would be plenty for at home use. That’s way faster than my Niro at 7.3kw…

          I’m also curious if the 100kwh battery apterae will have a higher DCFC speed… I don’t think anyone knows yet.

          • Joshua Rosen

            Member
            February 16, 2022 at 12:06 pm

            Opensource is irrelevant, I have zero interest in hacking my car. The last time I did that was the 1970s. A car has to be able to fully charge overnight, full stop. I don’t care about daily charging, I don’t commute, I do long day trips and hopefully someday when COVID goes away long trips.

            • Riley ________________________________

              Member
              February 17, 2022 at 1:14 am

              Open source and hackable is what is drawing me to this car. I am sure there are many who will be happy to move up in line if you decide aptera isn’t for you. I love cars from the 1960-70 era and hope aptera can live up their repairability.

            • Garry Sandeen

              Member
              April 30, 2022 at 8:00 am

              This is huge point for .net /gear heads.

        • Harry Parker

          Moderator
          May 5, 2022 at 1:19 pm

          So Joshua, how far do you ordinarily drive on a trip between stops?

      • Ken Kobayashi

        Member
        February 17, 2022 at 4:42 pm

        A Tesla Model-3 can get 175 miles of charge in 15 minutes at a Supercharger. Even an F-150 Lightning (extended range model) will be able to charge from 15% to 80% (that’s 195 miles of added range) in 41 minutes at a DC fast charger. This isn’t something you’d do on a regular basis, but it’s what makes it practical to do a long-distance road trip on an EV. I don’t see why a maximum charging speed of 30 miles per hour would be acceptable today, let alone in 2023 or 2024.

        Think about it this way: A Tesla Model-3 can easily cover 800 miles in a day, every day, by fully charging overnight (~10 hours at a destination charger) and making three 15-minute stops. A 600-mile range Aptera can go 600 miles on the first day of your road trip, but after that it’s down to ~500 miles a day maximum – 17 hours per day spent charging, which leaves 7 hours to drive those 500 miles.

        • This reply was modified 4 months, 1 week ago by  Ken Kobayashi.
        • This reply was modified 4 months, 1 week ago by  Ken Kobayashi.
        • This reply was modified 4 months, 1 week ago by  Ken Kobayashi.
        • Curtis Cibinel

          Member
          February 17, 2022 at 5:05 pm

          This thread is about level 2 (high voltage/amp AC charging).

          Level 3 is DC charging which Aptera does at 50 KW. This may sound very slow compared to up to 250KW on Tesla but due to efficiency Aptera is reasonably close in miles per hour. This is slightly slower than a model 3 but is stated to charge 500 miles per hour (125 per 15 minutes). It is likely the reason they didnt include faster DC charging relates the speed they can remove heat with skin cooling when stationary.

          • Ken Kobayashi

            Member
            February 17, 2022 at 5:44 pm

            50kW level-3 charging? Do we know that for sure? Why would they limit level-2 charging to 3.3 kW if it can do 50kW DC fast charge? I realize it’s a separate charging circuit, but still, if the battery & cooling system can cope with 50 kW DC fast charge, it doesn’t take much to add a 32-amp charging circuit.

            • Harry Parker

              Moderator
              May 5, 2022 at 1:25 pm

              The charging circuits for DC fast chargers is a heavy piece of equipment in a steel cabinet in or around the DC charging station, never in the vehicle. For AC charging, the charger is part of the vehicle.

  • Guy SKEER

    Member
    February 16, 2022 at 6:29 pm

    Somewhere mongst all the reading I have done here, I think I remember that the Level 1 Charging can utilize a 20-Amp Circuit, for circa 18 Miles gained per Hour. That will save Me the Installation and etc of a Level 2. Since I am not driving for Work, I can be completely Happy with that speed. Batteries should be Very happy with a steady diet of that sort.

    • Curtis Cibinel

      Member
      February 16, 2022 at 6:37 pm

      A 20 amp circuit is 16 amp sustained; Always knock off 20% (standard for electrical). Given the vehicle efficiency even ~1.4 kw from normal level 1 is plenty for me. That’s like 20 km / hour. Easily 200 km overnight. 16 amp (instead of 12) would be about 1.7 kw (half of what level 2 will give with the 3.3 from some FAQ statements).

      PS: To repeat myself they confirmed level 2 will give 30 miles (~48 km) per hour. Unless you are planning an absolute marathon drive even destination chargers will be plenty.

      PSS: I hate imperial units soo much… always jumping back and forth.

      • Joshua Rosen

        Member
        February 17, 2022 at 6:35 am

        The US uses Customary units not Imperial units. They differ in the liquid measures, the US uses binary measures, a US pint is 16 oz, Britain changed the size of the pint to 20 oz in 1824, long after the US had seceded from Britain. I assume they did that because they wanted more beer. In the US the Imperial pint is only used in bars that have the word “Pub” in their name, otherwise we use a strict binary system for liquids which in my opinion is the best system because doubling and halving are the simplest mathematical operations.

        • Elzo Stubbe

          Member
          February 17, 2022 at 2:41 pm

          Just saying: 220 volts AC 50hrtz… in all of Europe……How do we call that? Level 1,5 charging?

          • kerbe2705

            Member
            February 17, 2022 at 7:43 pm

            The UK and the EU don’t have “level” as such: They have AC charging and DC charging as all AC charging is 220V.

          • Joshua Rosen

            Member
            February 18, 2022 at 6:57 am

            To continue my pedantry. American houses are wired with 240V split phase power, two 120V legs 180 degrees out of phase with each other and a common neutral. In our breaker boxes the two phases are distributed to odd and even 120V circuits. When high power is needed, dryers, stoves and now EVSEs, a double breaker is employed which sends the two phases to the device for 240V. The historical reason why America uses 120V for standard circuits and Europe uses 220V is that the US got electricity much earlier than Europe. Edison’s bulb used a carbon filament that could only handle 110V (that was the original US standard, in recent years it’s been bumped to 120V because all modern 110V devices were capable of handling 120V). The tungsten filament lightbulb wasn’t invented until 1904, 25 years after Edison’s. By 1904 there were millions of homes in the US that had already been wired so it wasn’t possible to switch. In Europe hardly anyone had electricity, so few that the power companies were able to send free tungsten bulbs to everyone which allowed them to jack the power up to 220V.

            Because we have both 120V and 240V in our houses there are two charging levels available, Level I @120V and Level 2 @ 240V. Because all circuits in Europe run at 220V and 240V in the UK all of your charging is effectively Level 2.

      • Nathan Hubbard

        Member
        February 17, 2022 at 6:12 pm

        Seems like a bummer if 240v is only going to charge ~30 miles per hour. Are they limiting the amperage that much then? The FAQ mentioned 6.6kw chargers.

        • kerbe2705

          Member
          February 17, 2022 at 7:52 pm

          When the FAQ was written we were told in a webinar that they were looking at various off-the-shelf onboard chargers, 6.6 kW and 3.3 kW, but that they would most likely go with the 3.3 kW because they were smaller, weighed less and generated less heat.

          Lacking fans and radiators, the Aptera cannot shed heat very effectively when it isn’t moving: It is imperative, then, to keep the vehicle as cool as possible while it is charging. Heat is also the reason for limiting DCFC to 50 kW.

          I believe the general opinion is that, as Aptera is at least three times more efficient than most other EVs, charging at 50 kW will add the same amount of MILES over a given length of time as any other EV charging at 150 kW.

          • Curtis Cibinel

            Member
            February 17, 2022 at 8:44 pm

            Regarding DC (level 3) I wonder if Aptera will have the typical dropoff off charging speed after 80%. The DC capacity is very low relative to the battery size. Does the slowdown at the end have to do with thermals (the end of filing a battery is less efficient)? Most explanations simply say it “protects the battery”. A 60kwh Aptera has a larger battery than a model 3. If the tesla charger drops down from 250kw to 50-100kw for the end of its charge will the aptera just ride its max (50kw) charge all the way to near full (90+%) or will it drop to 20kw by 80%?

            • Peter Jorgensen

              Member
              February 18, 2022 at 7:12 am

              That’s a great question! I’m curious too.

              I’m also wondering if the larger packs can handle more power without generating much more heat – Ie: a 100kwh pack can take in more power before it gets too hot and has to throttle back?

            • larry kaiser

              Member
              February 18, 2022 at 10:30 am

              Would it not be a simple software tweak to allow the Aptera to charge at a higher rate and then throttle back when the battery reaches 95F or whatever the max temperature is. I live in Nebraska and there are times when I am sure the heat shedding ability of the skin would be able to handle the difference between charging at 3.3KWH and 6.6KWH. -10F is different than the average hi in San Diego.

              Range and charging times are still very important to EV buyers and there will come a time when

              Aptera is going head to head with many other EVs and a slow charging rate from a free level 2 charger will turn some buyers off. There are thousands of free level 2 charging stations at bars, shopping centers, libraries, and other places. I have planned a lot of road trips based on 1 hour stops for meals and a potty break, 2 hour stops for museums and walks and the like and overnights at hotels. All places where my Aptera can add miles for free. It would be nice to add them at ~66 miles an hour rather than ~33!

              a

          • larry kaiser

            Member
            February 18, 2022 at 10:34 am

            I would be willing to pay the extra cost of a 6.6 KW charger as an option. I ordered the 40KW battery and so should have enough room for the larger charger.

            • This reply was modified 4 months, 1 week ago by  larry kaiser.
            • John Malcom

              Member
              May 5, 2022 at 3:07 pm

              Aptera is actively considering a 6.6kw charger in place of the 3.3. A number of factors to include weight and cost are considered in that equation.

              With Aptera’s efficiency and solar charge capability, the 3.3kw would be adequate for most use cases.

  • Peter Jorgensen

    Member
    February 18, 2022 at 11:39 am

    Lets see what they come up with. It may be that there just physically isn’t room for a 6.6kw charger.

  • Donald Zerrip

    Member
    February 26, 2022 at 10:28 am

    I believe there are two issues when considering charging rates. One previously discussed by Aptera is DC charging limited to a 50KW rate. I understand that DCFC with high ambient temperature and the air conditioning on trying to keep the cabin cool is determining the limit. The issue is no airflow to help dissipate the battery heat and radiant heat capacity is limited under these conditions. Remember the Aptera design is intended to handle weather extremes (typically -40F to +120F).

    The other (discussed here) is the Level 2 charging rate. In Level 2 charging you are taking 240VAC and converting it to a DC voltage to charge the battery. The issue will not be the battery heat (though it has to be considered) but with an onboard charger how much heat it produces (the losses) and how the heat is dissipated. Using Quora.com as my reference, it was reported the University of Delaware did a detailed study of a reasonable sample of chargers. They reported the largest losses when charging EV batteries were the onboard chargers and observed an overall efficiency range of 83% to 88%. A study around 2016 at DTU in Denmark found onboard chargers in three EVs ranging from 49% to 77% efficient (DC power to battery out/AC power into the onboard charger).

    Using the best efficiency number from the University of Delaware study (88%) and charging at 6.6KW you would have a loss equivalent to about eight 100W light bulbs. That is a lot of heat and how do you remove it from the onboard charger power electronics? I assume you cool the onboard charger by an integral cooling loop or you exhaust a lot of air. The study also reported the lower the SOC and a lower charging rate lowered the efficiency of the charger. The 49% efficiency of a Renault Zoe in Denmark’s study of early EV onboard chargers would take a lot of cooling by any method.

    A large onboard charger in a tightly packaged, well insulated space of the Aptera would require integration into the radiant cooling system or significant venting of forced air cooling. The alternative is an external charger of your size choice and appropriate cabling/connectors to your AC source and DC input to the Aptera. One has to ask what is the purpose of the onboard charger and should it fit every need?

    • Curtis Cibinel

      Member
      February 26, 2022 at 2:27 pm

      Everything is always a design compromise. Adding faster charging would add cost, complexity and weight. Being close reasonably close to tesla charge rates is more than adequate. If people really need faster but not the 1000 mile perhaps customizations or options involving flaps on the belly / back, fans and radiators could be added using the excess space to remove heat. For the vast majority of people the rates they have should be fine.

      Level 1: record breaking (aka usable unlike with most EVs)

      Level 2: 3.3 kw is equal miles per hour to a Tesla

      Level 3: 50 kw is probably 70-80% as fast as Tesla on 250kw

    • John Malcom

      Member
      February 26, 2022 at 6:17 pm

      Curtis makes a really good point about trade offs. Aptera has made the tradeoff of faster charging with its associated greater cost, weight, and space requirements vs. operational performance. The need for faster charging is negated with the exceptional operational performance of Aptera. Looking at his summarized charging data, (Succinctly and plainly illustrated) to me it is clear Aptera engineering made the right choice for the majority of potential purchasers. It is more than adequate for my personal use case

  • John Malcom

    Member
    February 26, 2022 at 1:26 pm

    To reiterate Kayleigh’s post in this thread, Aptera will have Level II charging. Also to reiterate, the 3.3KW onboard charger was selected for less weight and size with an eye to efficiency. Also as noted in many posts, Aptera is much more efficient that all other EVs so high rates of charging are not required to add a lot of miles.

  • larry kaiser

    Member
    March 9, 2022 at 6:03 am

    I sent a message to Aptera WRT level 2 charging. I suggested that with a software change the Aptera could charge at full (6.6KW) power and if the battery got too warm it could throttle down to 3.3 KW. It took a few days but today Nicole Hall a customer success associate emailed me and said “the charge rate is up to 6.6 KW”. I replied “are you saying that Aptera will charge at 6.6KW from a standard level 2 charger?” She replied “yes, that is what I am saying”.

    I am sure that every Aptera owner will benefit from this change. Even if you never use a level 2 charger in your daily driving you may on a road trip. It will also help your resale value.

    • Joshua Rosen

      Member
      March 9, 2022 at 6:33 am

      That’s great news. 3.3 was a deal breaker for me, I can live with 6.6.

    • John Malcom

      Member
      March 9, 2022 at 7:59 am

      Thanks for taking the initiative to get that answer. It would have been nice if they had posted that information without you having to submit an inquiry to elicit the information

    • Forest Linden

      Member
      April 28, 2022 at 7:31 pm

      This is good news. I’ve been reading all the threads in here about charging and the battery cooling issues. The belly skin cooling is fascinating to me, but not having any active cooling of the battery pack while charging at a charging station is concerning.

      On a 90 degree day doing a road trip in my model 3, when I stop to charge at a super charger, the battery pack cooling fan goes full speed.

      I’m not an expert in battery technology by any means, but I know that heat is the enemy of EV battery packs. I’ll be really curious to hear about their final decisions around whether or not to add some kind of active cooling for the battery packs…fans, or fans plus liquid cooling/radiator.

      I understand the need to keep the power to weight ratio as beneficial as possible, and that adding a active cooling may weigh too much.

      It’s going to be very interesting to see what solutions they come up with.

      • Gabriel Kemeny

        Member
        April 29, 2022 at 5:27 pm

        Aptera does have active cooling – it may not be a conventional radiator with a fan pushing air through it, but it has active cooling.

      • kerbe2705

        Member
        April 29, 2022 at 10:26 pm

        @Forest Linden As @Gabriel Kemeny mentioned, Aptera’s battery pack, motors and power-electronics are actively liquid-cooled. Because it is being designed from the ground-up for efficiency, Aptera’s engineers are able to minimize the heat the system generates during charging and the aluminum belly provide sufficient surface area to serve as a “liquid to air” heat exchanger.

        • Forest Linden

          Member
          May 2, 2022 at 8:56 pm

          Awesome. thanks so much for the head’s up about the active/liquid cooling. That’s great to hear.

          Lots to take in and learn around the status of the design and development of this spacecraft on wheels. I appreciate you guys taking the time to help get me up to speed 🙂

    • Matthew Liddick

      Member
      May 1, 2022 at 8:44 am

      That is good to hear, I didn’t understand the limit of 3.3 KW being heat related. If the skin cooling can deal with the battery heating of L3 charging at 50 KW, surely even a 80% efficient 6.6 KW inverter wouldn’t overwhelm it.

      • kerbe2705

        Member
        May 2, 2022 at 9:20 pm

        Another thing to consider is size and cost: A 6.6 kW unit is going to be larger, heavier and significantly more expensive.

    • John Malcom

      Member
      May 5, 2022 at 3:15 pm

      I would be satisfied with a 3.3kw charger if it saves weight, space, and cost. I also do not want to subsidize the cost of a 6.6kw for those that want it. What counts is not the rate of charge, but the miles acquired by that charge. Because Aptera is so efficient, it does not need a 6.6 kw.

      All should reread the post by Curtis.

      Of course if you want to tinker with it once you purchase, then you can have any configuration you can fit in the architecture. 😁

  • John Malcom

    Member
    May 5, 2022 at 6:14 am

    Although not on the current spec sheet, Kayleigh Venne , an Aptera spokes person, said Aptera would have Level II charging in a post near the top of this thread. That was the last official statement from Aptera.

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