MemberSeptember 6, 2021 at 2:28 pm
I have a classmate who lives and works in the suburbs of New Orleans. His power has been out and he can’t find a place that has gasoline for his ICE. He is very frustrated and his family is not comfortable as they have no light other than battery lanterns, no way to cook food, and no transportation other than foot to get supplies and materials.
If he had an Aptera with the full solar array, even if he could not charge it from home power, or a charger in his area because of the power outage, he would have up to 40 miles of commuting range, and if he had a future Aptera with V2H perhaps the ability to power some things in his home.
Thank divinity and the Aptera Team for the coming of the Aptera!
MemberSeptember 6, 2021 at 2:59 pm
If he had solar panels on his roof he would be able to completely power his house and also be able to charge his car. NOLA is a good spot for solar, no winter and very far South. Alternatively if he had a propane generator he would also be able to ride out the outage. A car only has so much power in it’s battery, if you drain it to power your house then you won’t be able to go anywhere.
I live in Massachusetts and we have frequent outages, and when it happens here it’s worse because they happen in winter. When we have a long outage the first day isn’t too bad, you can put extra blankets on the bed and make sure the cat’s join you there. By the second day it gets very uncomfortable and by the third it’s intolerable, that’s when you have to camp out at a friends house in a town with underground power lines. After I went through a winter that had two nearly week long outages I bought a generator and had them install a pair of tanks so that I could make it through a week long outage. Now when we have an outage I barely notice it, the only way I even know that’s it’s happened is that the lights flicker for a few seconds and my UPSes beep when they engage. I had a very brief outage when the remnants of Ida passed through last week, that one was so short that it wouldn’t have mattered but I’ve had a few long outages since I got the generator, nothing more than a day. When they happen life goes on normally and my car can also be charged.
As I’ve mentioned in another thread, the cost of hooking up your car as backup power is more than half the cost of putting in a generator. You still need a transfer switch, permits, and an electrician.
MemberSeptember 6, 2021 at 3:09 pm
Politically, though, Louisiana is NOT a good state for solar – but it’s still 100% better than MS…
MemberSeptember 7, 2021 at 6:45 am
Hard to have solar panels on his roof as he lives in a condo.
Many people live in multiple unit housing where solar is not an option. But if you live in single family housing you don’t think about that. In the area where I live many high rise condos and apartments have standby generators because the probability of outages is high with hurricanes and severe storms. I live in a single family house on a beach in FL. I do not have solar as the area we live in is evacuated anytime we have a severe storm come through. Probability that roof solar would be blown away in these storms (Roofs are lost all of the time) is high.
We, as ,many do here, have a Generac tied to our natural gas that works great during outages. Of course we don’t have to deal with the cold that you do, but it is hot and humid during the most active part of the hurricane season and we wimps need our air-conditioning
MemberSeptember 6, 2021 at 3:12 pm
And it’s not just NOLA – the entire corridor heading north towards Jackson, MS, is without gasoline: Evacuees are like locusts (not that I hold it against them…). The region will be fuel-short for quite a while as the Gulf coast refineries were shut down as the storm approached.
MemberSeptember 7, 2021 at 6:58 am
I have a son that lives in Carrier MS and works at the NASA Stennis Center. He is complaining he can’t get gas to go to work. I feel bad for the people that were in the path of the storm
MemberSeptember 6, 2021 at 7:47 pm
Due to aerodynamics it may not get blown around, but he might need the optional anchor!
MemberNovember 17, 2021 at 6:23 am
This is going to be a huge target market for us
People Living In Apartments Don’t Have A Place To Charge
My son (who now has the Tesla Model 3 I bought 3 years ago) lives in a nice apartment on the East Coast of Florida. The apartment has about 600 units and a single charger. This will become a problem as more people get electric cars. Luckily, the office he works at is only a mile away, so he doesn’t need to charge very often.
I see the apartment charger problem as a chicken and egg problem. People have been talking about electric cars for 10 years and they are only about 2% of the cars sold in the US. Apartment owners see that if they had put in a charger for every car 10 years ago, that would have been a huge waste since only 2% of the cars today are electric, so far less than 1% of the cars of your prospective tenants will be electric. If your apartment has garages for rent, you can rent one of those and use the 120v outlet used for the garage door opener to charge your car about 40 miles a night.
Everything changes as soon as the owner or the manager of the apartment complex buys an electric car. Before that, when you talk to them, they say “why should I supply the expensive fuel for your vehicle for free if only one in 300 people even has an electric car. Just let those people charge at the station.” Once they own one, they get that it is an inexpensive thing they can do that will attract the kind of tenants they want. Almost every apartment in Florida has a pool, not just the luxury and newest apartments, even though the costs to build and maintain a pool are high and many residents don’t even use the pool. Maybe 20% use the pool regularly, but that is enough (plus the 50% that think they will use it but then don’t) to get the apartment to build a pool, even though there is no law (as far as I know) that requires them to have a pool.
Similarly, I think all it will take for the apartments to invest in putting in chargers in their apartments (first one, then many) is one of 3 things:
10% of prospective renters ask about charging and then when they say they don’t have it, show no interest in renting.If
the owner or manager owns an EV, they will understand that the value
to the residents year after year is far more than the cost of
installation.Their competitors start to install charging
stations. Apartment managers watch their competition and once a few
install chargers, others won’t want to be left behind, so they will
What I didn’t talk about is workplace charging or charging at the library, mall or grocery store. The reason I didn’t discuss those is that you don’t really need any of those if you have the 3 pillars covered. They are just frosting on the cake. They can help with the few apartment dwellers that need a charging solution before their apartment owner/manager “sees the light,” but I don’t really think they are a big part of the solution. The main problem is you only spend an hour or so at each of these (except your workplace). The one use case where workplace charging is really useful is if you have a plug-in hybrid with only 30 miles range and your commute is 30 miles each way. Then you need to charge at home and work to avoid using gas. But plug-in hybrids with short ranges of all-electric range seem to be on the way out. Many longer commutes are also getting rarer as Covid-19 has encouraged many people to learn to work remotely.
MemberNovember 17, 2021 at 9:02 am
Adding infrastructure for charging is difficult. I’ve dealt with this for the last few years on my strata. We have 198 units with about 400 parking stalls (80 garages, about 160 carports and the rest open air). The plugs and lighting in these areas is all paid by the strata.
The cost to install new meters and run new underground dedicated lines is extreme (upwards of a million). Owners don’t want to subsidize charging for those in with garages but we can’t stop people plugging in anything they want with the existing 120v. People are running 4 chest freezers, charging evs (2-3 in the complex) or a small grow op (I’m in Canada – not illegal anymore). I’ve had no luck getting a approval for people wanting to pay to upgrade to level 2 infrastructure through so people use 120v or bridge two circuits for 240 outside the wall worth non-dedicated plugs (definitely not code). Modernizing is very difficult and rather than getting viable charging to garage and carports (mostly 120v or 240/20a) we have a push to install one fast charger. This will just end up a parking stall, empty or ice’d.
Flat fees for access to level 2 or new electrical outlets (infrastructure paid by the owner) is the best we can do any legalities are questionable and usage will vary wildly so no one amount will ever be fair and we can’t even monitor it (model x vs leaf and people driving different amounts). Owners see strata paying for ev power as subsidizing the rich… On a $650,000 per year operating budget its a rounding error.
Making things happen in a massive complex with different owner views and infrastructure limitations is very difficult.
MemberJanuary 6, 2022 at 6:28 am
Existing and Potential Electrical Access by Residence Type and Parking Option
How Many Americans Have Access To Electricity Where They Park?
Published 14 hours ago
Access to charging infrastructure is one of the biggest barriers to plug-in vehicle adoption. In an online survey conducted in May of 2020, respondents provided information on their household parking options, existing electrical access, and potential electrical access. Parking for single-family detached housing (SFH Detached) was most often a driveway/carport, followed by a personal garage or on-street parking.
Most of those with a personal garage had electrical access or potential electrical access, while less than half of those with driveways/carports had electrical access. SFH Attached housing had a smaller share of electrical access for their parking in personal garages and driveways/carports.
Apartment residents had the least access, with each of the three apartment categories having less than 25% access or potential access to electricity.
Notes: Households may have multiple parking options available, and respondents were allowed to choose all options that applied. Thus, totals for each housing category can be greater than 100%. SFH = single-family housing. Apt = apartment. Number of respondents = 3,772.
Source: National Renewable Energy Laboratory, There’s No Place Like Home: Residential Parking, Electrical Access, and Implications for the Future of Electric Vehicle Charging Infrastructure, NREL/TP-5400-81065, October 2021.
Courtesy of Energy.gov
MemberJanuary 6, 2022 at 7:29 am
This is enlightening and a bit discouraging as is the experience Curtis relates. Even if efforts to implement public charging infrastructure are successful, a large segment of owners will struggle to charge “At home” the most common and convenient way to charge their EVs. Aptera’s solar array helps, but is not an adequate replacement for home charging especially in northern climes
MemberJanuary 6, 2022 at 12:03 pm
The biggest issue I see is that this is based on a survey. The concept of “potential” electrical access is very fuzzy. New lines can be run in by strata/owners for parking lots and garages. Cities can do the same by digging new trenches beside sidewalks for street parking. The question is difficulty, investment repayment time and how to charge for the power. We need a way for these entities to charge for the used power to the person at a rate of ~2x higher than the utilities to have a reasonable repayment time for the level 1-2 infrastructure. Some companies have handled this with QR codes and apps but local laws sometimes make things tricky (especially for stratas).
The future of charging is massively widespread level 1-2 chargers with load balancing systems so that lines can be overallocated. This requires a lot of thought and electrical work but is never going to be a dedicated nema 14-50 to every stall (this would be insanely expensive). We need technical solutions to split load capacity intelligently since we wont be drawing substantially most of the time.
I have a call with Evercharge to discuss their solutions for our stata soon and other vendors also have solutions for stretching electrical capacity and billing. Unicopower and Simpleswitch also have solutions to allow stretching old electrical infrastructure for more plugs than circuits could otherwise handle. Tesla released a J1772 charger with load sharing (up to 16 chargers per circuit) but since removed it with no public information or reason (they really need a PR department). Establishing charge infrastructure for a large number of spaces and adding over time with dated infrastructure is an issue.
Update: Discussed with Evercharge and was not impressed. They are expensive and charge $0.09 per kwh as a service fee after you buy tons of $2,000 chargers. A solution cheap enough to not hear “subsidizing the rich” arguments and get things done in our massive strata will be very hard. Indications are that adding a decent infrastructure will cost over $1 million dollars for my 198 unit strata.
- This reply was modified 7 months, 2 weeks ago by Curtis Cibinel.
MemberJanuary 6, 2022 at 1:30 pm
I can’t help but see the article quoted by Randy J. as an advantage for Aptera, though. I understand that upgrading the electrical infrastructure will be challenging and expensive. I see that these are barriers to EV adoption, for sure, but if I lived in an apartment, the appeal of the Aptera over any other EV would be even more apparent. If I lived in a reasonably sunny locale, didn’t do a lot of driving and could park outside, then the availability of charging infrastructure at my residence may be a complete non-issue if I owned an Aptera.
Amongst the reasons for buying an EV, I wouldn’t put “charging at home” to be top of my list. It would be a side benefit and an advantage over ICE vehicles. If I cannot charge at home, then I am close to parity with ICE vehicles in this aspect as they cannot be refueled at home. If I couldn’t charge at home, then I would want to minimize the amount of time I spend away from home to charge my vehicle. The Aptera provides exactly this. The miles/hour gain when charging an Aptera should be far superior to almost any other electric vehicle given the same charging source (correct me if I’m wrong here).
Furthermore, I’d expect apartment dwellers to be more price sensitive than the average EV buyer as wider access to money likely favors home ownership. The Aptera is certainly a vehicle for a more cost conscious consumer. The value proposition with the Aptera is very high. I see all of this to Aptera’s advantage.
MemberJanuary 6, 2022 at 2:58 pm
Exactly John_J ! I’ve started to second guess my investment in Aptera and I feel our advantage in the market place is waning as more and more new Battery tech and new long range EV’s come to market. The article I posted helps.
MemberJanuary 6, 2022 at 2:57 pm
That is exactly the big problem with having a society dependent on a monopoly energy source …and a “fouling the nest” one at that.
Carbon based energy is what we have used for a century or more and we need alternatives for when it is not available or when we want to “comparison shop”. One that we now know is more destructive than others available (but those others are not able to be used yet in our vehicles easily) Most everything else we purchase has a similarly equivalent choice. Some have tried used vegetable oil in place of diesel fuels Our ability (and need) to reduce carbon burning to slow climate effects is almost too late with too little. Reminds me of skin cancer and the harm I did to myself at the beach in the 60-70’s. Whatever I do now is superficial to what I did out of ignorance in my teen years. The damage is already out there and unless we can scrub the atmosphere for invisible chemicals and gases…we are looking at long term problems. But we need to act now. Planting back the trees we’ve already cut or shifting to EV when our power plants are still burning oil and coal does not seem to be enough although a step in the right direction. Big picture decisions globally … and family-based decisions that make us act/share/learn/feel better locally.
MemberJanuary 6, 2022 at 3:06 pm
VOLVO implemented a Radiator coating that reduced Pollution on their ICE cars a few Years back – Air Conditioners should be required to Put same in place on all new Units. Apartment Buildings, Offices, and Suchlike.