Aptera is both environmentally and socially responsible.

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Aptera is both environmentally and socially responsible.

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Aptera is both environmentally and socially responsible.

  • Aptera is both environmentally and socially responsible.

     IIM Udaipur updated 6 days, 10 hours ago 14 Members · 31 Posts
  • Andrew (George) Beeler

    Member
    November 24, 2021 at 1:42 pm

    My enthusiasm for the super-efficient Aptera was reinforced again today reading the NYT article A Power Struggle Over Cobalt Rattles the Clean Energy Revolution

    The quest for Congo’s cobalt, which is vital for electric vehicles and the worldwide push against climate change, is caught in an international cycle of exploitation, greed and gamesmanship.” https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/20/world/china-congo-cobalt.html?smid=em-share

    Yes we need to electrify transportation and buildings using clean energy but unless we are super-efficient about how we do it, we inflict horrific unintended consequences.

  • Curtis Cibinel

    Member
    November 24, 2021 at 2:48 pm

    Warning Paywalled

    Cobalt is definitely an issue but hopefully battery recycling and using LFP for most vehicles will limit the issue. Non-cango countries also have mines so perhaps companies sourcing responsibly need to be using that as a sales tool (like fair trade for coffee).

    Canada, Russia, Australia, etc could easily combine to about 50%+ of the cobalt. Plenty of options exist that aren’t currently economical to mine given labor costs but a 20-30% premium for “ethical” cobalt would solve the issue. Canada alone has 230,000 tons of known deposits.

  • Curtis Cibinel

    Member
    November 24, 2021 at 9:03 pm

    FYI tesla made 500,000 cars last year with 2,000 tons of cobalt (about 1% of mined cobalt). With about 1 million this year and focus on lfp they are probably under 3,000

    • Joshua Rosen

      Member
      November 25, 2021 at 7:41 am

      I’d be willing to bet that the majority of EVs will be using LFPs in just a few years. LFPs are inherently cheaper than NMCs because iron costs much less and is more abundant than nickel and cobalt. LFPs have longer life and are safer than NMCs, that along with their price difference will make them more attractive to most people. The performance is good enough, you can’t build a Plaid with LFPs but for any normal use they are fine. The 0-60 on the LFP Model 3 is 5.8 seconds, slightly slower than the 2170 SR+ but still about the same as my 2006 Chrysler 300C with a Hemi V8, that’s more than enough.

      • Curtis Cibinel

        Member
        November 25, 2021 at 9:53 am

        Yes. In the future if LFP is used for all but the high performance vehicles then supply just shouldn’t be an issue. Recycling and ethical sources should be adequate. I hope the shorter range Apteras will eventually switch to LFP but it will take a few years and is covered in depth in other threads. I also remember reading that even in the congo most current production (70%) is traditional mining supported by foreign companies rather than the typical “artisanal mining”

  • This content has been hidden as the member is suspended.
  • Patrick Liebknecht

    Member
    January 29, 2022 at 2:29 pm

    The vehicle it’s self is yes. Very green and responsible.

    Green energy however , prior to being “green” is not

    This is what rare earth mining looks like. Not very green to destroy millions of acres of Forrest to get to the rare earths needed to make EVs and green energy

    • Alain Chuzel

      Member
      January 29, 2022 at 4:22 pm

      That’s fair but I believe it’s also fair to suggest that, from cradle to grave, Aptera is easily more environmentally and socially responsible than conventional ICE vehicles.

      • GLENN ZAJIC

        Member
        January 29, 2022 at 11:20 pm

        Not only that but environmental devastation is much greater for oil extraction and coal mining operations, and what they are producing is meant to be used (by burning!) once and can’t be recycled or reused in any way. Their entire industries are for us using more and more where for cell production technology is for trying to use less and less. I didn’t say that very well, but I think it still makes the point. Tired.

        • Curtis Cibinel

          Member
          January 29, 2022 at 11:57 pm

          Absolutely agree. That said I am hoping a future Aptera iteration will use LFP as that alleviates many (not all) of the concerns about rare metals. Unless people want to live in a cave and eat only local vegetation humans in modern society have a carbon footprint – the key is reducing it and Aptera is amazing toward that goal.

          A future LFP based version could likely still achieve the 600 mile range version of the Aptera which meets any practical need and exceeds the range of any other EV (and most ICE vehicles). I really hope once they start shipping this refinement becomes a top priority for the engineering teams. The 1000 mile version really strikes me as mostly for headlines and ends up hauling a big heavy battery around in an otherwise lightweight frame for extremely fringe usage scenarios.

    • Thomas Bushaw

      Member
      January 30, 2022 at 2:15 pm

      I’ve seen a fair amount of literature that suggests that, over time (as EVs become more commonplace), the primary source for rare metals will be recycled batteries (piles of old batteries will be “mined” rather than the earth).

  • Steven G. Bueche

    Member
    January 30, 2022 at 5:43 am

    I think we can safely say that mining, technology and battery advancement will continue to evolve as we learn from our mistakes. This is the way of the human race. We think we know better until a better way comes along.

    Let’s not forget that there are those who see the issues presented here about waste, mining and the trouble of our current situation and realize there will always be things that could be done better. Most times because we do find a better way.

    I for one am not that person. I want my Aptera for selfish reasons. I am 62 years old and have health issues that give me pause for concern about my longevity. I want this for the cool factor and the fact that it doesn’t look like anything on the road. You see I’m tired of the boxy, wedge shaped cardboard inspired look of most affordable cars. Anything that has any style to it is priced beyond the paygrade of the average person and I am tired of it.

    I own a model 3 not because it’s a cool looking car, it’s not. but it is cheaper than gas to operate.

    The Aptera is cool looking. It’s the style of car we should have had years ago to drive. The sun will charge it most times and when it’s too cloudy I’ll charge it from the house. I don’t concern myself with the coal it takes to run the electrical plants or the mining situation. I just want a cool car to drive that doesn’t take gas and drives well enough to put a smile on my and others faces.

    • Alain Chuzel

      Member
      January 30, 2022 at 6:12 am

      Refreshingly honest!

  • Eric Miller

    Member
    January 30, 2022 at 7:16 am

    One thing about the Aptera that gives me pause is their plan to use nickel-based batteries. I understand why they’re doing this, because weight is so important in the Aptera. But I’d personally opt for an Aptera with an LFP battery, even though it’d have less range with the same sized pack. I have the LFP battery in my Model 3, and for me it’s a superior option due to its relative environmental friendliness and its charging qualities.

    • This reply was modified 5 months ago by  Eric Miller.
    • Alain Chuzel

      Member
      January 30, 2022 at 8:27 am

      I think you’re confused on what batteries Aptera is using in the first vehicles. I don’t think they can be characterized as “nickel-based”.

      • Eric Miller

        Member
        January 30, 2022 at 8:51 am

        My impression is that Aptera is using 2170 batteries similar to what Tesla uses, which as far as know are NCA or NCM chemistries.

        • John Malcom

          Member
          January 30, 2022 at 11:34 am

          You are correct about the batteries at this point. No LFP would give an Aptera the 1,000mi advertised range. 2170’s have been around for a while and proven in Teslas. The innovation from Aptera will be how they configure the batteries into battery packs (More quickly and at a lower cost) both benefits for Aptera buyers.

          • Alain Chuzel

            Member
            January 30, 2022 at 12:50 pm

            Just to “close the loop” on the “nickel-based” question, are NCA or NCM chemistries considered “nickel-based”? When I hear “nickel-based” I think of Nickel Cadmium, Nickel Metal Hydride or Nickel-Iron (Edison cell).

            • Eric Miller

              Member
              January 30, 2022 at 1:39 pm

              You’re probably right. I use that term often, but technically I should probably say something like “lithium ion batteries with nickel cathodes.” It’s just too long.

            • Alain Chuzel

              Member
              January 30, 2022 at 2:08 pm

              Fair enough!

      • Joshua Rosen

        Member
        January 30, 2022 at 8:55 am

        They are using a Samsung NMC or NMA battery, they aren’t using an LFP. You can only get LFPs from China at the moment and the supply is limited, I doubt that they would be able to get any. Chinese car companies plus Tesla are getting first dibs on LFPs, I doubt there are any left over for tiny startups like Aptera.

        • Eric Miller

          Member
          January 30, 2022 at 9:01 am

          You might be right about the current availability of LFPs. My understanding is that a Chinese-owned patent recently expired on LFP batteries and we can expect a ramp up in production here in the US at some point. I could be totally wrong about that, but it’s what I’ve heard.

          • John Malcom

            Member
            January 30, 2022 at 11:30 am

            It is true that the top 10 EV battery (Any chemistry) are in Asia – China, Korea, and Japan. Not surprising since China is the biggest EV market in the world. It is not true that China is the only source of LFP technology. All manufacturers are capable of LFP production if there is sufficient demand. LFP Technology has been around since the 90’s. LFP is considered an old technology being resurrected because of its cost and safety advantages for short to medium range EVs, best for the growing Chinese and second largest Euro Market. Not surprising that LFP is not in the US as we lag in the adoption of EVs and have a need for longer range batteries. Some companies will have proprietary approaches, any manufacturer has access to LFP manufacturing science though. Right now China’s BDM is leading with their next generation blade LFP EV batteries which are proprietary.

            Gotion High-Tech (China) has a “Major US EV Manufacturer – rumored, but not confirmed to be Tesla) contract to supply LFP batteries with US manufacturing planned. VW has formed a partnership with three battery producers, one in the UK, to produce LFP batteries for their EVs.

            A123 Systems, K2 Energy are two current US based LFP technology sources. The collaboration between Toshiba and Johnson Controls will have manufacturing of LFP available in the Johnson Controls MI manufacturing facility.

            Based on all EV manufacturers, especially those in China and Europe, who only need short to medium range battery technology, and Tesla who will use LFP in their standard range vehicles in the US, LFP production capacity may be challenged for a bit, but will expand rapidly as these additional manufacturers come on line.

            I suspect that solid state or near solid state will be a competitor (Perhaps not on cost) with in three to five years so some companies, perhaps some of the above,may refrain from investing too much in LFP at this time.

            If any of us actually knew the answers to all of this stuff we could compete with Elon and Jeff in the wealth category. Unfortunately we are uninformed guessers 😉

            • Curtis Cibinel

              Member
              January 31, 2022 at 2:26 pm

              Are you sure A123 and K2 are investing in LFP? A123 talks about NMC specifically on their site and K2 says nothing about chemistry. Domestic supply for LFP would be awesome as it could allow Aptera to transition over the coming years (hopefully before my reservation comes up 😉).

              Solid state seems to be coming together as a more nebulous transition with “semi-solid” and different technologies/chemistries in the mix. It will be beneficial but is likely 10+ years from mainstream (3-5 years for premium vehicles).

            • John Malcom

              Member
              January 31, 2022 at 4:42 pm

              My satement about LFP Chemistry from A123 and K2 is based on their discussions,with the EV manufacturer I work with. As far as I know the information is not under a NDA

  • John Malcom

    Member
    March 14, 2022 at 4:54 am

    Me as well.

  • IIM Udaipur

    Member
    June 22, 2022 at 10:25 pm

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  • Oz (It’s Oz, just Oz)

    Member
    January 30, 2022 at 11:58 am

    Anyone else having problems with the “report comment” function?

  • Alain Chuzel

    Member
    January 30, 2022 at 12:33 pm

    I have been for the last day or three.

  • Dennis Swaney

    Member
    May 4, 2022 at 10:35 am

    I just reported the political advertisement posted on May 4th

  • Curtis Cibinel

    Member
    March 14, 2022 at 10:22 am

    It hasn’t worked for about a month for me.

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