Vehicle to Vehicle (V2V), to Grid (V2G), to Home (V2H) and to Load (V2L) info

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Vehicle to Vehicle (V2V), to Grid (V2G), to Home (V2H) and to Load (V2L) info

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Vehicle to Vehicle (V2V), to Grid (V2G), to Home (V2H) and to Load (V2L) info

  • Vehicle to Vehicle (V2V), to Grid (V2G), to Home (V2H) and to Load (V2L) info

  • Raj Giandeep

    Member
    August 24, 2021 at 6:42 pm

    Had this idea on the previous forum. Thought I’d do a video to explain my idea a little more. Is this something you’d like to have in case of emergencies?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSiOgYpBVOg

  • Jose Torre-Bueno

    Member
    August 24, 2021 at 6:42 pm

    It seems to me that I saw something in the old forum indicating the Aptera would be capable of V2G. Is that still the case?

  • kerbe2705

    Member
    August 24, 2021 at 8:54 pm

    The version of the CCS charging standard that’s used in North America isn’t expected to include V2G capability until at least 2025. At present the only V2G system uses the ChaDeMo format.

    There is talk of some vehicles being able to output 110V AC current which would allow them to be used like small emergency generators for relatively light loads – but not for connection to the power grid.

    • Jose Torre-Bueno

      Member
      August 25, 2021 at 8:22 am

      Are you sure about that? A few years ago CHARIN the agency that defines the CCS standard published a roadmap that said that V2G was scheduled for 2025 but the most recent version of the roadmap does not have dates on it. V2G is predicated on the communication specification which will actually come from ISO/IEC15118-20. My understanding is this is in release status 49.99 where 50 is released so it must be available to manufacturers. This must mean that all mechanical and electrical specification for V2G (or at least V2H) are fixed and it would only be a software issue to make a vehicle V2G capable.

    • Fanfare 100

      Member
      August 25, 2021 at 9:06 pm

      How many Watts surge and how many watts continuous? I was wondering if it could power a small 700W microwave oven.

  • Dan Stevens

    Member
    August 24, 2021 at 9:08 pm

    Not sure, but I sort of hope so. I want V2H (vehicle to home) and could care less about V2G. V2H is on the drawing board to be standardized long before V2G (though both are coming quickly). In fact, EV’s like the Ford F150 Lightening are introducing it in the spring of next year. But of course, it requires THEIR charger setup to make it happen correctly. I’m sure there is a lot of preliminary protocols floating around to interchangeability, but I wouldn’t count on that to work once the spec if finalized.

    V2H is much simpler, you control what happens on this side of the meter. V2G is a regulatory nightmare and I don’t really want to use my car to power someone else’s refrigerator and TV.

    So, somewhat available now, definitely next year. Can you use any bidirectional charger with any bidirectional car? Not officially yet.

    Will Aptera allow this? I hope so. Its the same CCS connector, a minor bit of hardware to allow bidirectional power flow and probably a couple of hundred hours of software time to make it work.

    • Bob Kirchner

      Member
      August 25, 2021 at 9:43 am

      I at least want something I can plug a freezer/aircon unit/ power tool into. There will be times that I won’t be driving enough to use all the power the panels collect, and there should be some way to consume the excess productively.

    • Riley …

      Member
      August 28, 2021 at 6:49 am

      I plan on using my aptera as a giant solar battery. Its peak solar input is 700w however thats at noontime on a sunny day. Going to cover a carport with solar panels tie that into the onboard solar charger and max out that 700w all day.

      • Raj Giandeep

        Member
        March 15, 2022 at 3:35 pm

        I made a note during one of the Aptera calls. Steve mentioned that the solar inverter would be about 1,000 watts maybe 1,200 watts to account for the possibility of replacing the solar panels on the later with higher performing ones. I’d hope there would be an easy way to connect external solar panels easily to the car. So you could park in the garage or covered parking & still charge via the sun. I made a video about this and passed it to Aptera. They mentioned they passed it to the solar panel team. Fingers crossed.

  • Joshua Rosen

    Member
    August 25, 2021 at 9:44 am

    I hope they don’t waste anytime on this feature, they have so much to do and so little capital and staff to do it that a distraction like V2H could kill them. If you want backup for your house there are two better choices, a propane generator (I I have as 20KW Kohler) or solar panels and a power wall. My Kohler can power my house for almost a week with the two tanks that I have and if the outage goes longer I can have the tanks refilled. I got it after having two five day outages in a particularly bad winter several years ago. If you live in an area which gets a lot of sun then solar is a good solution, it will pay for itself eventually and it makes you independent of grid failures. I wouldn’t want to power my house from my car, I want to be able to go somewhere during a power outage and a drained battery makes that impossible. Also disconnecting the car to go somewhere will remove power from your furnace. It’s the lack of heat that makes power outages so uncomfortable.

    • Dan Stevens

      Member
      August 25, 2021 at 10:05 am

      I do support laser focus on getting the car delivered. At the same time, I do like flexibility, but flexibility in things always leads to longer development times. At the same time, I’ve ordered the F150 Lightening to go with my Aptera mostly because of this feature (and at times, I need to do truck things)

      I do have a 20KW Generac whole house auto-start backup generator due to frequent power outages. Unfortunately, living among the trees eliminates the ability to use solar at all, not an option and since we live in a national forest, we are not allowed to cut down the trees.

      I’d like to see the feature available but it definitely does not need to be there day 1. Most people would probably never use it.

      • James Pace

        Member
        August 25, 2021 at 1:15 pm

        I for one will be using the V2H features of the Aptera. It’s one of the main reasons I’m purchasing the car. V2G needs a power company ready to adopt that standard, and Idaho Power has shown no interest in V2G, although Idaho Power is a leader in renewable energy from non-residential sources. In the old website discussion list, someone claimed an engineer at Aptera told him/her V2H is in the cards, with a CCS connector, but I cannot confirm that. Every time I have a chance to submit that question for seminars, I ask, but no firm answers from a reliable source yet.

    • David Towe

      Member
      December 4, 2021 at 10:20 am

      Kind of late to the party on this one. I do agree V2H should not be a top priority. As someone who has solar panels and no battery, (I do get a 1 to 1 credit for every Kwh I put on the grid, so the grid is kind of a battery. Just one that does not work during a power outage and still charges me for delivery) I would like the feature to be available at some point fairly soon (1-2 years) after launch. I work from home and rarely go anywhere. If I could have my Aptera power my computer setup during an outage that we be great. If it could power two 15 amp and one 20 amp breaker that would be spectacular. For at least two reasons, No need to buy a separate house battery, and the battery will not be in my house just incase somethings goes wrong.

      <font face=”inherit”>I will still buy this car w/o that feature, as it is an amazing car. I do not want </font>adding<font face=”inherit”> that feature to the car to hurt the company.</font>

    • John Malcom

      Member
      December 4, 2021 at 7:25 pm

      There is wisdom in Joshua’s post.

      If it is in the plan fine (I don’t think it is) but if not, no effort should be made at this point to include it. There is only a very minor business case for including it..not a general demand for this feature as it would only apply to those that have or intend to have home solar. Trading that off for a potential schedule delay, parts sourcing in a difficult supply chain environment, and with uncertainty regarding the CCS standard is not a judicious decision. Then, of course, a price increase.

      Better to wait for Aptera 2.0 or a maybe a third party solution

    • Matthew Huszarik

      Member
      March 15, 2022 at 2:09 pm

      People don’t seem to understand the V2H is the killer application that will push many more buyers into the market. Especially here in Call where people have grid insecurity.

    • Matthew Huszarik

      Member
      September 14, 2022 at 10:10 am

      Ops.

  • Harry Parker

    Moderator
    August 27, 2021 at 3:28 pm

    The only thing close to V2G planned for the first Aptera is an AC inverter and power socket to give you 120 volt 60 Hz power from the Aptera. That’s no V2G; More of a V2H or V2X capability.

    As of a few months ago they were still researching inverter vendors and deciding on the specs. Don’t expect more than 1500 watts capability from their builtin inverter; the same as a standard household outlet. So you could power some tools or a fridge or a small microwave, or even charge another EV at Level 1.

    • Fanfare 100

      Member
      August 27, 2021 at 10:33 pm

      Thank you Harry. That answered the question further up in the thread.

    • James Pace

      Member
      August 28, 2021 at 8:12 am

      Harry, if the 1500W, 60H/120V inverter is still in the design, I think I could live with that, as long as the whole 60KWH (in my case) battery is available to that inverter. That amount of power could run my fireplace fan and refrigerator for days and days during a mid-winter power outage, my biggest concern. But I’d rather be able to use the V2H capabilities of the CCS connector, combined with a combo level 2 charging/V2H system such as the Dcbel so I could operate my central heat pump and air exchanger. Pulling the battery down no lower than 20% would still give me 4-5 days of power and keep the whole house warm. As long as I could manage without hot water and an electric stove or microwave, that’s dandy.

      A back up generator, or a solar array and battery bank that would accomplish the same task would approach $10K at a minimum.

      • Harry Parker

        Moderator
        August 28, 2021 at 9:31 am

        After 2 long lasting (many days) power outages here in NJ years ago, I finally shopped around for an emergency generator. You can buy a gas powered one for under $1000 that’s good for 7.5KW. I figured it cost over $1/KWH to run. Bought and installed my own transfer switch for a few hundred dollars to power my home’s critical circuits and I was good to go. Got it inspected to keep the town happy, too.

        I can now run my water pump, fridge, pellet stove, microwave, heat the outside bathroom to keep the pipes from freezing, so I’m good to go. Of course the power has never gone out once since then for over an hour or 2. ????

        All that is way less expensive than solar panels on your roof, but only good for rare emergencies. It is also much less expensive than a home battery storage system.

        If your utility allows it and pays you for any excess electricity your solar panels generate and you send to the grid through a grid-tie inverter, then ALL the electricity they generate will be used. That’s the most cost effective way to use your rooftop solar panels. Then charge all your EVs and run your home from the solar + grid power in your walls.

        • Fanfare 100

          Member
          August 28, 2021 at 2:26 pm

          Hey Harry, there’s only one lonely person shown on the NJ map. And that person also remembers that power outage, if it’s the one from the ice-storm you are referring to. And, of course there was Sandy. Won’t you join that person on the map as well? https://aptera.us/community/discussion/aptera-owners-map/ I’m sure there must be a few others from NJ as well.

          Aptera Owner's Map.

          • Harry Parker

            Moderator
            August 29, 2021 at 10:02 am

            Hey Fanfare, NJ is bigger than you think. Look NW of you, North of Flemington near Clinton. That’s my practically next door neighbor, Steve and I, also in NJ. (Easton is on the eastern border of PA.) So that’s 3 of us NJ Aptera folk who have gone public.

    • Jose Torre-Bueno

      Member
      August 28, 2021 at 1:59 pm

      From the point of view of a utility customer V2H give 99% of the benefit of V2G so even a basic AC output is valuable. The virtue of a CCS connection is that it could integrate with smart EVSE that could use the vehicle battery as a peak shaving device to avoid expensive electricity on time of use rates. I am thinking that the CCS equipment may be programmable and when the new standard is promulgated it can have this functionality added. If the Aptera can charge via CCS then it has all the hardware to use the future CCS features.

      • Duane Ediger

        Member
        March 19, 2022 at 3:30 pm

        I second that. We have a Powerwall to round out the solar use most of the time. For me, to have the Aptera’s battery available for secondary backup and getting an even higher percentage of our household use covered by the solar stored in the Aptera’s battery would be a feature that would shape my decision on whether this vehicle will suit our needs. 1500 Watts would be better than nothing, but through the CCS connection I don’t see why, within reasonable state-of-charge constraints, the export maximum could not raised to the 4-10 kilowatt range.

  • Joshua Rosen

    Member
    September 3, 2021 at 10:21 am

    I don’t see any reason for a car like an Aptera to support V2V. It makes sense in the F150 Lightning and the F150 hybrid because pickup trucks are used as tow trucks. AAA is going to need to have a means of charging stranded EVs at some point just as they bring gas to stranded ICEVs today. AAA is not going to be using anything like an Aptera.

    As for V2H, maybe. V2H will require the installation of an automatic transfer switch and that’s a large fraction of the cost of a home backup system. I installed a 20KW Kohler generator several years ago, the whole job cost me in the neighborhood of $12K. The generator was only about $5K of that, the rest was the installation, transfer switch, housing and permits. V2H from a car would save you the cost of the generator and generator housing but the remaining costs would be the same. If you are going to spend that kind of money you might as well spend some more and get a robust solution. I can ride out a nearly week long outage with the two propane tanks that I have, and if the outage were to go longer I can always get the tanks refilled. If I were younger and lived in a sunnier part of the country I would have put in a solar system with powerwalls, that’s a lot more expensive than a generator but there is a long term return on investment assuming that you have the time to recoup your investment.

  • John Malcom

    Member
    September 3, 2021 at 12:22 pm

    Based on the number of times something like this would be needed (Very seldom) vs. the engineering time and expense, supply chain setup, plus testing, and potential delays to production some 120 days out from first delivery, I believe it can wait for the next iteration of Aptera if needed at all.

    The need/feasibility can be determined by a joint marketing/engineering group through their formal process of vetting enhancement ideas.

    I believe their are two existing mitigations for this predicament in the current version of the Aptera. The first being the built in solar which can recharge a depleted battery. The second, I think Aptera purchasers are too astute to get them selves into this kind of predicament ????????

  • Ray Holan

    Moderator
    March 3, 2022 at 9:50 am

    I would welcome a V2H feature in the Aptera. Anyone have any updates on whether this is planned for short term or relegated to version 2.0?

    • Curtis Cibinel

      Member
      March 19, 2022 at 3:35 pm

      If they can implement the dc return power per the ccs standard then v2g, v2h, or V2L should be possible with an external inverter. Adding excessive weight or equipment in the aptera for the 20-30% of owners that will use it isn’t useful.

      • BigSky Country

        Member
        March 20, 2022 at 11:28 am

        I think this is more relevant for the versions with big batteries. Given they are prioritizing 400, then 250 versions, perhaps this is a feature to consider for the 600 and 1000 since they come later.

      • Matthew Huszarik

        Member
        September 14, 2022 at 10:19 am

        I agree adding a large heavy inverter to the Aptera wouldn’t be the best solution, but having the ability to export DC to a wall mounted inverter wouldn’t add significant weight and would give customers significantly improved utility. It would also give them an additional revenue stream selling wall mounted and portable inverters. All they would have to do is subcontract out the inverter production and slap their name on them.

  • Matthew Huszarik

    Member
    March 15, 2022 at 2:28 pm

    In my opinion along with the Aptera’s range a reasonable ability to use the Aptera to provide 120/240v AC @ about 5kw would be a killer application. The inverter doesn’t even have to be on board it could be mobile just take it with you when you need it. Uses, back up power at home, power when away from AC camping at the beach ect, giving another BEV a enough juice to get to a charger, running 120/240v appliances and tools from your Aptera.

    With a little software you could even plug it in your home solar to minimize your utility bills as net metering goes away.

    • This reply was modified 6 months, 3 weeks ago by  Matthew Huszarik. Reason: Check email replies
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.
  • Curtis Cibinel

    Member
    March 15, 2022 at 4:21 pm

    A 12V AC inverter is a heavy and expensive piece of hardware. A 5000W unit is probably about ~$800 / 20lb. These work off 12V DC so I’m not sure if the vehicle would have a enough 12V capacity to provide this or if another converter would be needed. Ideally the vehicle could deliver adequate 12V DC then people that want this feature can buy an inverter sized to their needs. With a focus on efficiency and price I really don’t see why this needs to be builtin if an adequate DC port can be provided. If you need extra hardware to step down from 400V it might be a safety hazard to externalize it so not sure if this is a practical approach.

  • GRAUSS Thierry

    Member
    March 16, 2022 at 1:48 pm

    A V2G inverter doesn’t work from 12V but from the high voltage battery, so 400V DC to 120V or 240V DC. The current is much smaller.

    This is 400V/13A and 240V/21A.

    • Curtis Cibinel

      Member
      March 16, 2022 at 2:37 pm

      If its a dedicated device built in then yes; But if they want to provide a port which can safely have a device such as this plugged in they need to lower the voltage to 12V first.

      https://www.homedepot.ca/product/energizer-1500-watt-12v-dc-to-120v-ac-power-inverter/1001281866

      • Matthew Huszarik

        Member
        March 19, 2022 at 3:46 pm

        The Aptera if it uses a standard plug that can support Level 1, 2, or 3 charging is already designed to support plugging in a 400v DC source. The same plug could supply an inverter with 400v DC and it would be no more dangerous than charging the vehicle.

  • GRAUSS Thierry

    Member
    March 16, 2022 at 3:16 pm

    I think that a 5kW inverter would be cheaper if it was integrated inside the Aptera as it would work from the high-voltage battery and then with lower currents.

    Also it is not that expensive. My new EV (while waiting for the Apera to come to France) is a MG ZS with 70kWh battery. It comes with a 2.5kW inverter for V2L and this EV is one of the cheapest EV with over 400km WLTP range.

    So I guess that it should not be a problem to integrate a 5kW inverter inside the Aptera.

    I hope that they will do this at least for the later Aptera when it will be released in Europe.

  • stéphane harié

    Member
    March 17, 2022 at 12:11 am

    Hi, I already post something related to your suggestion but under “which option do you want?”, but don’t know how to link to it here…

    Me too in France, I have a MG ZS EV 70KWh with this V2L option (max 3kW)… and I use it a lot… I also modified the electrical installation of my house to use the V2L as a backup source and to power some of the appliances, plugs and lights of the house in case of main power cut. It is working nicely!

    So yes a V2L, V2H or what ever the name we give to it, is a must have option!

  • Gary Greenway

    Member
    March 18, 2022 at 2:53 pm

    If they just make the battery voltage available at the CCS port, whoever wants to spend the money on a V2H setup can buy their own inverter. There is no reason for everyone to bear the cost of the hardware. That also reduces the vehicle weight and moves the generated heat outside of the vehicle

    • M T

      Member
      March 18, 2022 at 4:53 pm

      Fitted for not with, is definitely the best option (battery voltage available at CSS port). Extremely low cost, easy to implement, yet allows customization down the line for those who want the V2H option.

    • stéphane harié

      Member
      March 19, 2022 at 2:43 am

      Yes, just to be more precise: on the MG ZS EV the V2L is not an option! You get the functionality even if you don’t need it.

      But the V2L is provided through the CCS port! Therefore what you need to purchased in extra is a dedicated cable CCS to the standard plug of your country. This cable is recognized by the car.

      But I don’t know if a second inverter is used in that case or the existing one for the charge…

  • kerbe2705

    Member
    March 18, 2022 at 11:01 pm

    Would Aptera require a second inverter for this purpose? The on-board charger is just an inverter and aren’t inverters inherently bidirectional, given the appropriate circuitry and control? If so, Aptera will already have either a 3.3 or 6.6 kW inverter built in. The external power port that ships with the Hyundai Ioniq 5 and Kia EV6 is just a J1772p-to-NEMA 5-15r adaptor…

  • Russell Fauver

    Member
    March 20, 2022 at 5:49 am

    The Aptera already has at least one fully capable inverter built in, probably two since each front wheel motor can be powered independently. Would it take a lot of hardware/software/engineering to tap into the 3-phase AC output from the motor drive inverter and sync it to typical house current?

    • This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by  Russell Fauver.
    • This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by  Russell Fauver.
    • This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by  Russell Fauver. Reason: Grammar
  • Nolan Parsons

    Member
    April 7, 2022 at 4:24 am

    Has there been talk of being able to use the battery and solar charge for other things?

    If my math is right a full solar pack generates up to 4kW a day under ideal conditions, not enough to power a house but certainly some appliances on an extension cord with a multi plug when the lights go out or you’re camping. Perhaps when you’re aptera is fully charges it could even be possible to redirect the excess solar energy generated into the grid and take a good 10 to 20 dollars off your monthly home electricity bill.

  • Alain Chuzel

    Member
    April 7, 2022 at 6:04 am

    I wish I can tell you where you’ll find the answer but there certainly has been some “chatter” about “vehicle to load”, “vehicle to grid” and “vehicle to home” on this forum. Hopefully someone else can point you in the right direction.

    BTW, I’m not sure what you mean by “…a full solar pack generates up to 4kW a day…”(?) I suspect you meant that Aptera with “full solar” can generate up to on the order of 4kW-Hrs of ENERGY a day with it’s nominally 700 watt peak POWER solar array. Energy and Power are different things.

  • Bob Kirchner

    Member
    April 7, 2022 at 10:24 am

    My understanding from reading between the lines of the various FAQs on this topic is that the limitation in discharge rate is in the available battery cooling through the belly pan. Therefore while they have said they would like to offer some Vehicle To Load function, it would likely be limited to one 120 volt, 15 Amp circuit. Basically a single wall plug.

    • Nolan Parsons

      Member
      April 7, 2022 at 11:01 am

      That sounds perfect for an extension cord and multi plug the next time a storm takes out the power where i live, thanks.

  • Elzo Stubbe

    Member
    April 16, 2022 at 11:24 am

    Any thoughts on V2L and V2G adapters. On the campsite and in case of black outs….

    This for example would be great in an aptera….

    • This reply was modified 5 months, 3 weeks ago by  Elzo Stubbe. Reason: extra V2L adapter
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.
  • Gary Greenway

    Member
    April 16, 2022 at 3:53 pm

    V2L is really easy. As long as the vehicle charger is bi-directional, you’ll be able to buy a plug in CCS inverter on Amazon. V2G is a lot harder. It requires a high power inverter that can sync to grid voltage and frequency. That box would best be something external to the car because it will be heavy, expensive, bulky, and produce heat. Everyone that uses that is likely to have differing needs and capacities. Once again, as long as the vehicle charger is bi-directional, you’ll be able to plug in an external V2G inverter too

    • Elzo Stubbe

      Member
      April 17, 2022 at 4:22 am

      Thank you Gary. You made me a lot wiser!

  • Jonathan Reni

    Member
    April 18, 2022 at 3:57 pm

    I noticed a comment in a video about using a hot plate when camping, which suggests there will be at least one power outlet on the Aptera. Has anyone seen more information on this?

  • John Malcom

    Member
    April 18, 2022 at 5:30 pm

    A 110 volt outlet is planned

  • Martin Boyd

    Member
    September 7, 2022 at 10:46 am

    I’d like to propose a new feature for Aptera. I’d like to see all EVs eventually do this. Hopefully, Aptera will lead the way. With Vehicle-To-Grid (V2G) technology EVs have the potential to offer stability to the power grid during peak demand periods. Can Aptera partner with a company that will facilitate joining or creating Virtual Power Plants (VPP) wherever there’s a concentration of enough Aptera EVs within a power grid region? It’ll help ensure Aptera owners are maximizing their impact for a more sustainable future through more efficient transportation and clean energy.  Thoughts??

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