Aptera › Community › Aptera Discussions › (V2V), (V2G), (V2H) and (V2L) info
(V2V), (V2G), (V2H) and (V2L) infograuss-thierry replied 1 week, 4 days ago 35 Members · 58 Replies
(V2V), (V2G), (V2H) and (V2L) infograuss-thierry updated 1 week, 4 days ago 35 Members · 58 Replies
david-marlowMemberOctober 19, 2022 at 11:13 am
Not as currently planed, the Tesla plug doesn’t allow for this.
Possibly with an inverter you could power and AC outlet of a few amps from the 12VDC supply.
Several people have asked about this, maybe when the 1K mile version is produced, the larger battery may encourage them make this an option.
dan-stevensMemberOctober 19, 2022 at 11:44 am
Have to wait and see.
Chris Anthony has said multiple times that he wants to be able to do it but the standards are not there yet. Of course, Tesla has always said ‘NO’ to this and if they use the Tesla plug, as David pointed out, then it won’t work since the Tesla invertors don’t appear to allow bi-directional power flow. In fact, the connector isn’t really aligned to enable this due to dual usage of pins for both AC and DC.
So, I suspect, if they use the CCS connector, which I’m pretty sure will end up happening (no inside knowledge, just they don’t have an agreement on the Tesla one yet) then the chances of this happening as some point after production starts is much higher.
I highly doubt it will be there on the early production vehicles though.
hans-marius-torgersenMemberOctober 19, 2022 at 1:49 pm
The standard is here,
Road vehicles — Vehicle to grid communication interface — Part 20: 2nd generation network layer and application layer requirements” https://www.iso.org/standard/77845.html
I hope the 25 kWh version will be LFP chemistry which would be suitable for V2X.
jonah-jorgensonMemberOctober 19, 2022 at 9:42 pm
Aptera has stated that there will be no V2H or V2G functionality in the first production Aptera. There will be a small V2L (120v) perhaps 1300 – 1500 watt plug. The reason given was not the lack of the standard, but the lack of a reliable implementation that is compliant with the standard. Aptera does not intend to engineer a custom solution as the time, cost, and effort to engineer something that may be compliant risks the allocation of effort needed to complete already designed functionality. It is a prudent engineering decision to wait until there are compliant solutions available in industry to either license or purchase for this functionality.
Remember, the goal of the Aptera is to be the most efficient ground transportation in the world. not to be a battery for home backup or to furnish current to a grid.
NetworkRickMemberOctober 20, 2022 at 4:48 am
Don’t care about ANY of these.
V2H Utility score -100%: My home has no electrical problems and IF there’s a failure on the grid it’s usually resolved same day, big deal 😂
V2G Utility score -500%: No gonna use my commuter to power someone else’s TV !
V2V Utility score -90%: Could become of some limited use in the future. The cables in my diesel car help to jumpstart someone with a dead battery in 30 sec., same is not applicable to EVs.
V2L utility score -100%: Who is stupid enough to need to power a normal TV, a microwave or other stuff of a CAR? There are plenty of battery operated power tools for that matter. Heck it’s a VEHICLE not a freakin generator! 😂
dan-stevensMemberOctober 24, 2022 at 10:12 am
What I have found out is everyone thinks differently on V2H and what value it brings to them. If you have very stable power then its usually not a big deal. If you live somewhere that has at least annual multi-day power outages, then it has great value.
Personally, I want V2 My RV, which is mostly the same as V2H, but is a different use case.
What I hope is this is mostly solved by the selection of the chargeport and inverter system they use. If it allows bi-directional power, then the ‘integration’ to various things can be done outboard of Aptera and not add cost or weight to the vehicle itself but be extremely useful for those who need power.
I view this as somewhat akin to cameras on phones, which was generally viewed as a silly idea when they first did it, but now, most people would have a hard time not having a camera in their pocket that also happens to make phone calls sometimes.
V2G – I know power companies want this but I don’t understand why a consumer would want it at all! Well, other than rate shaving, which I totally get, but its not the driving factor.
Mike-MarsMemberOctober 26, 2022 at 3:09 am
> “V2G – I know power companies want this but I don’t understand why a consumer would want it at all! Well, other than rate shaving, which I totally get, but its not the driving factor.”
If power companies actually paid a decent feed-in price for V2G power supplied at peak times, then I think consumers would be keen. But they pretty much pay the absolute minimum they can get away with.
Regarding V2H, this is also useful if you have demand-based electricity pricing. For example, using prices here, you could charge the battery in the early-hours at $0.10/kWh, and then power your house from the vehicle during the day when the price is $0.38/kWh. Close to a 4x difference in price. Same as using a household battery.
- This reply was modified 7 months, 2 weeks ago by Michael Marsden.
RayMemberOctober 25, 2022 at 6:45 pm
The big problem for this particular feature is the required inverter is expensive, possibly heavy, and would only be used very seldom if ever. Not great economics. It might make more sense to have the inverter be an external device. You could store it at home, or drag it around with you. In any case, stay focused on the basic vehicle. We can get fancy later.
konijntjeMemberJanuary 21, 2023 at 8:54 am
Wondering if we can set the aptera that it feeds electricity back into the house at night when needed, and set the maximum wattage perhaps.
john-malcomMemberJanuary 21, 2023 at 11:06 am
V2H (Vehicle to Home) functionality will not be in the production variant of Aptera but may be offered in the future.
993ccMemberJanuary 21, 2023 at 11:44 am
Initially they had said that it would likely have at least a 120v plug, but that seems to have gone away too, at least for the launch edition.
- This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by Bob Kirchner.
steven-ballMemberFebruary 22, 2023 at 3:34 pm
does the Aptera function as vehicle to load? Camping in Australia would be wonderful to run the fridge and charge the e-bike.
Excited Aussie Camper – Steve
harry-parkerModeratorFebruary 22, 2023 at 5:41 pm
Yes, Aptera has confirmed they are working on and will have a standard AC outlet or 2 in the vehicle at some point. Not sure whether it will make it into the first Launch Edition vehicles though.
steven-ballMemberFebruary 23, 2023 at 8:58 pm
Thanks all for the updates, I am starting to understand the ethos of the company in being able to upgrade the vehicle as new breakthroughs occur
- This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by Steven Ball. Reason: poor grammar
ray-holanModeratorFebruary 23, 2023 at 5:21 am
Hi, Steven. Like you, I am very interested in V2L. The 42kW battery pack in the Aptera could keep essential devices in my small home up and running for a considerable time during a blackout. That capability would be one more strong selling point for Aptera. I realize the priority is to get the launch editions built and out the door, but I look forward to V2L capability when and if it will be available.
john-malcomMemberFebruary 23, 2023 at 6:53 am
I think what you are interested in is Vehicle to Home (V2H) if you want home backup during a power outage. This says there is not a current commercial implementation of the standard yet so Aptera will wait to develop that functionality. Emphasis is Starting work on a product that will provide all three V2x for EVs plus solar charging if you have home solar. It is unclear in their technical information if they are implementing based on the standard or if their solution will be proprietary.
wingsounds13MemberFebruary 23, 2023 at 8:56 am
I believe that I heard a comment some time back that they didn’t want to sink their time and money into developing a proprietary V2H/V2G implementation. They want to have these features but are going to wait until a standard is published and build to that. Quite understandable that they want to put their capital into delivering a ‘good enough’ product as soon as possible, they are already reinventing enough wheels as it is. 🙂
steven-ballMemberFebruary 23, 2023 at 9:05 pm
I just got a home battery and panels about a month ago, my grid usage has dropped to about 400 watts per day. From what I can tell there is a ramping process that takes about 6 seconds to switch to solar or battery, I think that’s the usage.
Looking fwd. to the bidirectional addition of another 42kw when that feature becomes available.
ray-holanModeratorFebruary 24, 2023 at 5:05 am
Hi there, Steven. Your 400w per day usage is on par with mine.
All things being equal, the small (i.e. 1024Wh) “solar generator” I already have will likely get me through the typical few hours of blackout we have in my corner of the universe a few times per year. As John Malcolm pointed out, something like a 110V plug outlet on the Aptera would be icing on the cake and is really what would appeal to me. The Aptera’s 40,000+ Wh battery pack far exceeds my dinky 1024 Wh solar generator (i.e. battery with 110v inverter combo). That would take care of my “range anxiety” for backup power.
I don’t need to run my refrigerator or air conditioning during a several hour blackout. Keeping a few lights, internet router, computer, and cell phones working is about all I need. We have a gas stove for cooking and a wood stove for heat in winter.
peter-danielsMemberApril 9, 2023 at 12:03 am
I want to ultimately be green and grid independent at will. I currently have enough solar on the home roof for a net-zero annual pull from the grid using Enphase tech. I need a battery solution for green independence and would rather not incur the expense of a dedicated powerwall or Enphase equivalent. My next car (Aptera or otherwise, currently driving a 2013 Leaf) will be an EV preferably with bi-directional capability. I would invest in an offboard bidirectional charger (Enphase announced in February, their plans for V2X) to integrate with my solar system. I hope Aptera as the forethought to make the CCS bidirectional. If you can charge directly (DC), then you should be able to discharge directly.
ray-holanModeratorApril 9, 2023 at 8:22 am
Peter, I’m of a like mind. I just contracted to add 8 panels to my existing roof system to offset the power I need to charge the BMW i3 I just bought. When Aptera is available, I plan to sell that and use the Aptera as my primary vehicle. My current home system has no battery storage so I’m interested in the number of power storage and transfer options that have been discussed in this thread.
john-malcomMemberApril 9, 2023 at 1:00 pm
These features will not be available in the first production Aptere. Enphase will be releasing a product that will provide V2H, V2G, V2L, and EV charging. Of course only for those that have home solar. My home solar is Enphase. I will install the new product when available. The down side, current home storage batteries will be obsolete when using one of our EVs for solar storage.
- This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by John Malcom. Reason: Corrected spelling
curtis-cibinelMemberApril 10, 2023 at 12:46 am
It is POSSIBLE the bms could be designed for dc out on the nacs connector (it is in the specs that nacs can do it but I don’t think they spell it out in the public spec). Probably a longshot as the last thing Aptera would want to do is make proprietary additions to the nacs standard but they MIGHT have some direct contact with tesla and could implement to an unpublished spec update (very weird to me tesla included v2x with no public details). This would allow an external inverter connected to the charge port to provide v2l (similar to the external adapter/inverter for the ev6 ); this approach seemed elegant/modular to me. Depending how much it can put out this would also allow for v2g/v2h if the capacity is adequate in the future.
- This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by Curtis Cibinel.
peter-danielsMemberApril 10, 2023 at 4:07 am
There are apparently some established box of standards for bi-directional charging that Aptera could design to. This is going to be a huge wave. I believe Enphase is going to pull it off because of their tech and long-established compliance with grid interoperability. Check out page 8 on this Enphase white paper… https://enphase.com/ev-chargers/bidirectional
Mike-MarsMemberApril 10, 2023 at 5:18 am
Yeah, bidirectional charging is an ISO standard, so enphase (or anyone else) can implement that, and it will work fine.
However, the ISO standard (ISO 15118 section 20) is defined for CCS. Tesla’s NACS actually based on the CCS protocol, so is most of the way there already, but the problem is that NACS uses a physical connector which is not compliant with the ISO/CCS specification.
Hence Aptera needs to wait for Tesla to add the details of how to implement it on their specific connector. If they had used a compliant connector design then Aptera would have been able to implement V2x already.
- This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by Michael Marsden.
- This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by Michael Marsden.
ray-holanModeratorApril 10, 2023 at 7:59 am
Mike, I appreciate your throwing more light on the details of this issue. Grateful to have folks like you who can dive deeper in the waters than I can.
peter-danielsMemberApril 10, 2023 at 4:40 pm
I wondering about the wisdom of leveraging Tesla proprietary scheme versus mainstreaming the CSS standard with connector. Especially, since Tesla is not all the keen on bidirectionality and may have competing interest given investment in Powerwall.
john-malcomMemberApril 10, 2023 at 5:16 pm
Argued vigorously in other threads on the forum when Aptera’s use of NACS was first announced. Moot at this point as the decision is made and instantiated in the production design. Hopefully, agreement has been reached or will be reached with Tesla for Aptera to use superchargers in the same manner as Tesla vehicles for charging. For those that want V2X, with a Tesla architecture, we will need to wait for some third party solution that is compatible with the Tesla plug. At least one vendor is working on a product for release in 2024.
john-trotterModeratorMay 25, 2023 at 4:00 pm
Ford and Tesla just agreed to cooperate, with Ford shifting to NACS in 2025. And Ford has always emphasized vehicle-to-load. Problem must be solvable.
This has to be good news for Aptera. Aptera can debug the non-Tesla NACS system in 2023 and 2024, so Fords will work more reliably in 2025. Good for all of us: Aptera, Tesla, and eFord.
grauss-thierryMemberMay 27, 2023 at 12:30 am
My cheap MG4 has V2L (officially 2.2kW, but some people have tried up to 7kW with the right gauge and plugs).
It can be used as V2G if you install a transfer switch.
Where I live, we can have special prices for electricity. It is way cheaper than the standard price most of the year but 22 days, during peak hour, where it is much more expensive. If we are at home (remote working) during these expensive days, we can plug the car and disconnect the utility and recharge the car during off-peak.
I checked and during the most expensive days (ie, it is very cold and cloudy, so no PV), I use 1.5kW of power as my home is well insulated. so no problem powering the home using V2L.