Apteras Union ?

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Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Apteras Union ?

  • Apteras Union ?

     Daniel Crotty updated 6 months ago 15 Members · 35 Posts
  • Daniel Crotty

    September 19, 2021 at 8:31 am

    Can the Aptera workers form a union in order to get Tax cut qualified? Make it a $1 a month Union due. Then, have a Free lunch once a month with the dues.

    I understand and agree with supporting unions. This however punishes Tesla and Aptera purchasers. Shouldn’t we be encouraging them.

    I think we can encourage unions in other more justified ways.

  • Roshiyu

    September 19, 2021 at 9:11 am

    I would much rather have Aptera aim for the larger than 40KW battery credit. As stated in the battery short, the sizes may not be exactly 25, 40, 60, or 100. So if the 40KW is say, 40.1-42-ish KWs in size?

    If Aptera does go for the union credit, then they might as well form a proper union.

    Not that US credits apply to me, but I wish you all the best. 😛

  • Joshua Rosen

    September 19, 2021 at 9:23 am

    Three wheelers are a separate category, they only qualify for a $2500 rebate. The union provision is there to screw Tesla, Rivian, Lucid and all of the foreign owned American plants are collateral damage. Aptera is in a separate screwed category, three wheelers. The proposed law is a creation of Ford and the UAW, it’s not designed to help EVs it’s designed to help the UAW.

    Even if Aptera was considered a car I don’t think a house union would qualify. I’m not a lawyer let alone a labor lawyer but I can’t imagine that when the labor laws were written in the Roosevelt administration they wouldn’t have put in strong prohibitions against house unions.

    • John Malcom

      September 19, 2021 at 9:40 am

      Joshua, as in a previous post,I really wish you would keep your personal biases to your self. If you feel strongly about the provisions of the bill, express it to you national representatives and don’t vent here. If you don’t like the way they vote on a bill, vote for someone else

      • Joshua Rosen

        September 19, 2021 at 2:02 pm

        I have written my Congresswomen but it’s important that every one else do it too who cares about EVs. This is a miserable bill designed to help a couple of legacy companies at the expense of everyone else. Do you really think the government should be favoring 25 mile range plugins like the Prius over a 600 mile range Aptera, this bill does just that. As long as a plugin has a 10KWh battery, enough to get you to the supermarket and back assuming you ever bother to charge it, you get a $4K rebate. Congress is also repeating the mistake they made with CAFE standards. When those were introduced they wrote much weaker standards for trucks than for cars. What’s the result, the car companies stopped investing in cars and put all of their money into pickup trucks and SUVs built on truck chassis. Now instead of driving giant Buicks the country has switched to even bigger trucks and SUVs. They’ve set the rebate based on battery size rather that efficiency, that’s counter productive. Everything about this bill is dreadful.

      • Peter Jorgensen

        September 19, 2021 at 2:39 pm

        Joshua is right – A Chevy bolt gets an extra 10k off over an Aptera. And his post has nothing to do with voting…

        But I understand what you’re saying – It’s just a sticky situation and frustrating for all of us. It does some good and some harm and nobody is happy except the UAW.

      • George Hughes

        September 19, 2021 at 9:17 pm


        I wish you’d be a little less rigid in your definition of politics. Having played in that a bit, there is a difference between politics and policy. That we, as a society, have oddly jumped the shark to make these two terms synonymous when they should be much more distinct.

        For instance, my opinion is the way we’ve framed this issue, which dates to a decade ago, that the public provides subsidies for EVs, is simply the wrong frame.

        What would probably be a better frame for encouraging adoption of approaches to a low-carbon future would be advanced by an approach that subsidizes, by whatever means, high-efficiency, sustainable transportation.

        The best idea – i.e. first principle for government subsidies is to put the incentive in the right place for the goal you seek to accomplish.

        I actually think it a bit limited to suggest the scheme conjured in the current bill – an obvious expansion of the original EV tax credit – is particularly problematic in terms of accomplishing the stated goals.

        Aptera is based on first principles and the key principle that inspired the Aptera is adherence to hyper-efficiency in transportation. Given policy is one avenue for gaining broad acceptance, it is counter-productive to avoid talking about policy.

        Given the challenges posed by climate change and the communication burdens necessary to counter gross efforts to misinform, it seems to me it would be impossible to get there if speaking about plans, programs and policies is prohibited.

  • kerbe2705

    September 19, 2021 at 9:29 am

    No one is “being screwed”: There’s a basic incentive and then an ADDED incentive if the vehicle is Union-made.

    • Peter Jorgensen

      September 19, 2021 at 2:41 pm

      I’d say with Aptera having to fight a 10k disadvantage against a Chevy bolt that the Aptera is getting screwed.

      Either way it’s going to have to sell on its merits over other cars regardless of rebates.

      • kerbe2705

        September 19, 2021 at 10:41 pm

        The Chevy Bolt is a five passenger, 5-door hatchback – it’s not going to cross-shop against the Aptera.

        Aptera will be competing against other 2-seat EVs – of which there don’t seem to be any. So maybe it will cross-shop against the Jaguar F-type, the Mercedes Benz SLC, the BMW Z4, the Porsche Cayman and the Chevrolet Corvette? ????

      • Peter Jorgensen

        September 20, 2021 at 7:09 am

        Kenneth I’m cross-shopping against the Tesla Hatch, Chevy Bolt, Nissan Leaf, Ioniq 5, Model 3…

        And my current Kia Niro EV. They all have 5 doors and 3 back seats. I don’t need the back doors or back seats so they are wasted extra stuff for me – So Aptera is more efficient and optimized for that. But it’s still in contest with all the others. It’s a clear winner on range/value to me but still cross-shopped. 10k is a big difference.

        Ps: I’m a young adult with no kids and don’t need back seats.

  • Dan Roberts

    September 19, 2021 at 6:20 pm

    Remember folks this is a startup. Usually employees of startups enjoy stock options and get to participate in the growth of the company. I don’t know what Aptera has in mind in this regard but from what I have heard from the founders employees would probably benefit much more from stock options than having a union shop. Unions typically do not enjoy stock options. Regardless of political leanings, I am confident Aptera will treat there employees fairly without the drag of legacy unions.

  • Philip Raymond

    September 19, 2021 at 7:10 pm

    As a union member myself for most of my 40 year career (CWA, not UAW) , I can all but guarantee you Aptera is way too small (in a good way) to interest the UAW to organize. The UAW is far more interested in organizing companies like Tesla and other non-union EV companies with traditional manufacturing assembly lines that require many more people to assemble just one vehicle than Aptera’s much more simple-4 main parts assembly. As long as Aptera treats its employees well with things like stock options and an inclusive work environment, I doubt there would be any internal interest in unionizing either. That’s pretty much the game plan Honda, Subaru, Toyota, BMW, Volvo, Hyundai/Kia, Nissan and Volkswagen have used for several decades, to keep their plants non-union. I think I left one or more out, but you get the idea.

    • Peter Jorgensen

      September 20, 2021 at 7:10 am

      Do you think they would want to unionize as a “token union” for some extra benefits to lower the product cost to customers? If it came to that of course?

  • Fanfare 100

    September 19, 2021 at 8:53 pm

    I believe in the right to form and/or join an union. I have been in unions and proudly. But I also believe in the right to not have one if one is not needed. The reason for unions was for collective bargaining to offer a way to air grievances and more effectively collectively bargain against an employer who would otherwise have the upper hand and might have established the precedence of abusive and/or unfair labour practices.

    But if an employer is fair and the employees are happy, enjoy a positive rapport and feel that they are well and fairly compensated for their efforts there truly is no need for an union and often the workers will not feel inspired to form or join one and rightfully so.

    In such cases, penalising a company for having happy workers is also unjust. I know of some workplaces where the labour practices in union shops are not as favourable as those in union shops.

    Therefore, incentives should not be doled out simply if a company employs an union, but rather, after an independent assessment of fair and well-regarded labour practices, regardless of union status or not. Companies should also be penalised for attempts at union-busting as well. But, to my knowledge that has also not been the case at companies such as Tesla or Aptera.

    My belief is that this has become a political matter based on the magnitude of political contributions made by certain groups

    May fairness prevail and not simply the word of the highest bidder.

  • rich garlick

    September 19, 2021 at 9:58 pm

    Unions are a relic of the past. This is just pure Socialism. Joe is just repaying donors who supported him for 50+ years. I personally don’t see the big three making it through this decade intact. I am happy with $2500 off of an Aptera. Should it be more, absolutely ! Shameful and pathetic for sure. This is about Tesla and trying to harm them. Build the Aptera! People will see the Genius. Then there will be 2 Great American car companies that actually make cars in the U.S. Name 1 thing our Government does well. I’ll wait….

    • kerbe2705

      September 19, 2021 at 10:50 pm

      You must know a definition of “socialism” that I do not: The idea of a government spending tax money to stimulate a segment of the economy or to press forward an agenda is pure and utter capitalism.

      • Joshua Rosen

        September 20, 2021 at 8:06 am

        The purpose of this bill is to protect legacy auto makers it’s not to stimulate the market or the technology. The original Bush era tax credit had the rationale that a subsidy would help to jump start the technology, at the time batteries were $1000/KWh and at that price a mass market for EVs was an impossibility. But a dozen years later the mission has been accomplished, the cost of batteries has fallen by a factor of ten and they continue their downward trajectory. The technology has a momentum of it’s own, it doesn’t need a subsidy or mandates any more. We are at the point where we’ve reached price parity with everything except the bottom end of the market. The F150 Lightning starts at $39K and in general is priced very equivalently to the ICE F150. When you take total cost of ownership into account it will be cheaper. Objectively an EV is better than an ICEV in every way except roadtrip fueling, home fueling is actually vastly easier. The performance is noticeably better, instant response, no gear hunting, quiet, and no tail pipe emitting smoke. The cost of fuel is much less even on states with high electricity prices, I’m paying 25 cents/KWh (about twice the national cost) in Massachusetts and my Model 3 still costs me about the same per mile as a Prius but it has the performance of a BMW. The reliability is higher because there is so much less to go wrong and in the future it should be even better. I’ve had a Model 3 for two years and it’s never been in the shop, I’m 67 and in all of my life I never had an ICE car that didn’t need work in it’s first year.

        The way to get the best possible EVs in the future is to let the free market operate freely. There may be a role for the government in accelerating the availability of charging at rental properties. Private homes need no subsidy, installing an EVSE is the same cost as the paint option on a Tesla.

        • Peter Jorgensen

          September 20, 2021 at 8:33 am

          Well said.

          Unpopular opinion: Tax vehicles based on their damage to air quality.

          • Joshua Rosen

            September 20, 2021 at 9:48 am

            We will have to move to a non-gas tax means of generating road use taxes. A mileage tax for all cars, not just EVs, that scales for emissions (actual for gas cars and virtual for EVs) makes sense. The gas tax effectively does that now, MPG directly translates into the tax revenue per mile. If you applied this new tax to all cars it could start out fairly low and then scale up as the fleet moves from gas to electric cars.

            • Peter Jorgensen

              September 20, 2021 at 10:07 am

              Most of the infrastructure dollars don’t come from gas tax – they come from state grants and property tax/income tax.

              As for an EV tax – we already do that in Utah – I pay $120 a year additional fee for my Niro EV registration. The state legislature tried to raise it to $500 a year but there was a lot of outrage. $120 is about the same as I paid in gas tax before. But I’m not contributing to our terrible air conditions. Salt Lake City has really bad air in the winters with a nasty inversion.

            • Joshua Rosen

              September 21, 2021 at 6:57 am

              The current set of EV taxes are clearly designed to discourage EV ownership not as a revenue source. There aren’t enough EVs on the roads at this point to significantly effect gas taxes. Also what all of the current EV taxes have in common is that they are at a fixed rate, unrelated to mileage or weight. Gas taxes don’t work that way, they are based on the miles driven/MPG. Heavier less efficient vehicles pay more which accounts for both their higher tail pipe emissions and their road damage. A fair tax would replicate the gas tax. States already have the miles driven from every car because of the annual inspection or alternatively could be obtained from the automakers because all modern cars report their telemetry over the Internet. The weight and EPA MPGe is also known for each car model. It would be easy to replicate the gas tax and include it in the annual excise tax bill.

  • Pistonboy Delux

    September 20, 2021 at 2:05 pm

    I can hear it on the evening news now:

    “Aptera workers not wanting to join a union but wanting to give buyers the extra $2,500 EV incentive if unionized, have decided to join unions. Some have joined the Ladies Garment Workers Union while others have joined the California Fruit Pickers Association. This is obviously a snub to the United Auto Workers Union (UAW). It is reported that the US President is fuming.”

    • George Hughes

      September 20, 2021 at 8:37 pm


      Your vision of Aptera employees joining a union in order to provide Aptera buyers a shot at the public trough is, what one would call, ‘gaming the system.”

      My enthusiasm for Aptera is based on its first principles approach to making a car.

      Most folks don’t realize how revolutionary Aptera is. It is literally about re-writing the rules for making cars from simplicity of production to ultra-efficient operation.

      The fact is, in broad terms, the challenge “We the people” face is how to put the incentives in the right place(s).

      That encompassing idea was recently expressed by Ezra Klein in this column in yesterday’s NYT:https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/19/opinion/supply-side-progressivism.html

  • John Malcom

    September 20, 2021 at 8:03 pm

    A lot of esoterical concepts and words here without much substance. In my 75+ years of experience, going this route gets you nothing In the end. The process of give and take on concrete, time limited proposals, even if you have to compromise with the devil achieves “Something” in the end. It appears this process may produce some concrete incentives to move forward the US’s lagging adoption of EVs. (Catching up with China and Europe)

    Another guess. You have never lived in a socialist country so really don’t know what practical socialism is maybe even believe the ” Socialism rhetoric” exposed lately here in the US. I have lived and worked for 20 years of my adult life in both socialist and communist countries. Incentives being proposed bares no semblance to socialism.

    Personaly, I would rather see something done, even if not perfect, that sit around and pontificate about how it should be. Actions speak louder than words

    • George Hughes

      September 22, 2021 at 10:18 am

      I can claim only 70+ years of ‘experience’ but I know that the Aptera represents a paradigm shift in auto making in much the same way that making changes in how we as a people address the massively critical issue of climate change and carbon reduction needs reform.

      I understand how the influence of established power of both the legacy auto industry including its worker institutions have written the laws to aid their specific interests.

      That said, I support the current proposal and scheme in large part because it carves out a budget allocation for the task.

      Still, objectively, there are better ways to accomplish the stated goals; ways that provide more bang for the buck in the expenditure of yours and my tax dollars. That long experience tells me that it is always easier to reallocate appropriations than get them passed in the first place.

      Certainly, the current law – assuming it can even be passed – is better than what we have now but won’t get us where we need to go. In automotive terms, it is at best a 20-mile range Prius hybrid in the road to electrification when what we really need a 1000-mile Aptera that runs totally on power from the sun.

      Reminds me of a ditty from my childhood. “Good, better, best, never let it rest, ’till the good gets better and the better gets best.”

      • John Malcom

        September 22, 2021 at 10:41 am

        Thanks for this George!

        I agree, “Continuous improvement” is necessary. I am a Six Sigma Practitioner and that is one of the mantras for the Six Sigma discipline. We do need to start somewhere though even if it is not an ideal starting point and unpopular. Rather than strive for the “Best” to start with, starting with “Not so good” but achievable is necessary. It is better to have “Not so good” than nothing. How do you eat an elephant, “One bite at a time”

        The current proposed legislation certainly is not ideal. but right now there may be a chance to pass it. I suspect, if we don’t, the opportunity for anything may be lost for some time as we will move on to other priorities and to an election that may result in a governance makeup not at all friendly to EV incentives.

        Then we can “Nickle and dime” them to where we want to be ????

        • Nathan Bendall

          November 6, 2021 at 9:38 pm

          Here are my two cents for what it is worth. The US Government no longer really represents the American People anymore. They represent the Special Business Interests now. I honestly do not think Aptera Team B lead by Aptera CEO Paul Wilbur did a good job there at all. He did help run Aptera Motors Inc. straight into bankruptcy. However, I think he made one serious honest mistake while trying to run Aptera Motors Inc. back in the day. He put all of Aptera’s eggs in one basket hoping to receive that US Dept. of Energy Loan that would never come in time by trying to redesign the Aptera 2e from a 3 wheeler to become a 4 wheeler. Long story short: Aptera Motors Inc. simply ran out of money and went bankrupt. It was all probably avoidable if only Aptera Motors Inc. just build and sold as many Aptera 2e as possible to help raise as much funds as possible. Now in 2021, the issue now is Union or No Union? It is a complete non issue to me. Aptera Motors Corp. just needs to keep it’s head down and keep focusing on it’s course of building good quality EVs at an affordable price for the general public without a bunch of political distractions to just get in the way of their progress. For the US Government, it was never about Tesla or Aptera or Rivian or Etc. at all. It is all about trying to help keep the Big Three Automakers in Detroit alive when they simply refuse to get with the times. They think a bunch of political donations to DC with help them to avoid bankruptcy but they never learn their lesson from the 1970s Oil Crisis. Thoughts? Thanks for your time, Nathan <b style=”font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit; letter-spacing: 0px;”><yt-formatted-string force-default-style=””>China is Coming: Observations from an Expert | In Depth </yt-formatted-string>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTOtAniwC18&t=2s

          • George Hughes

            November 7, 2021 at 3:34 pm


            I disagree on the nature of the government … or at least its potential. Sure corporations have greater influence today than they did 50 years ago but this is because there are a lot fewer smaller businesses/corporations; particularly in the industries that consolidated ownership dramatically in the 1980s.

            Think about it. Today, if one wants retail input on legislation, Walmart and Amazon are everywhere and while Target is still around, Sears, K-Mart and thousands of mom and pop stores are out of business. With diversity in the field of retail geographically altered – most of the digital retailers come from California – there are simply fewer checks in the scheme of checks and balances. Same is true for the media, which has shrunk from over 100 large newspapers and other media outlets with significant localized influence to essentially a handful of major conglomerates like ABC/Cap Cities, Fox, Disney, etc.

            Then the conservative SCOTUS, in reversing the bribery conviction of a former Virginia governor, essentially said that politicians taking gifts in exchange for favors is not bribery unless the participants swear it is (not much of a test and it really is that bad considering Citizens United meant massive dark money can fund such not-bribery ways for the wealthy to get their way).

            It is not a good situation but if you know the roots of the problem, you can address it with a super-majority in the Senate. (Which is another way of saying that with the filibuster, you only need to bribe 41 people to filibuster everything. The SCOTUS even figured a way to save their patrons cash.)

            How this relates to the Paul Wilbur saga with the first Aptera is that he was a car guy and sure, he had high hopes they’d get the $150 million but the switcheroo from the 3-wheel to the 4-wheel, five-door sedan was, as folks understood at the time, an impossibility. I feel the switch was designed to kill the Aptera 3-wheel as I suspect the ‘new board’ … the one that kicked Chris and Steve out the door … was heavily invested in both traditional automobiles and the oil industry … and the hyper-efficient Aptera promised to be disruptive.

            How better to kill it than to buy it and mismanage it.

            But kill it, they must if for no other reason than GM, which was still being bailed out, had just introduced the Volt which as a hybrid with 38 miles of EV range, could register combined mpg ratings of 70 mpg in most circumstances and a 205 mpg Aptera sedan would have been a disaster for them. And given the investment to bail out GM and keep its workforce employed, the sabotage of a mere startup was chicken feed.

            Is it right? No. Were the politicians directly responsible? … not really … because it was the power of those with industry connections (oil and gas and transportation have been symbiotic) who were using the tools they know to sabotage another electric vehicle.

            As far as the ‘play’ … didn’t GM buy the Red Line (the Los Angeles trolley car system) in 1948 so they could ‘close it down’ and sell more cars? It is the same game.

            The point is that democratic forms of government are horrid but, even as Winston Churchill said “The worst form of government … except for all the others.”

            The pols are flawed but they do provide a choice and an option and condemning them all when the real fault lies in the hands of others. Seeking to change the system, as with a coup, is playing into the hands of the others who seek to foster an autocratic form of government which falls into the category of ‘all the other kinds of government’ that are actually worse. Think how Vlad Putin or MBS would bend the rules as your president.

            Put another way, when you consider the massive size of many multinational corporations coupled with their money and power, is there any other entity other than the US government, capable of being a counter-vailing force if one or more of these entities decide to poison the land with impunity … again.

            • Nathan Bendall

              November 8, 2021 at 1:26 am

              Really interesting read George. Thanks! It talks a lot about things that I have been thinking about for a long time now. So who is in a position to help us solve the Financial Crisis, the Climate Change, the Worldwide Pandemic and a whole host of other serious problems too? Is it going to be the US Government or the 1% of the Extremely Wealthy (Elon Musk (I am a Huge Fan for all the good he has done in the world and how he keeps pushing the envelope.) Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, Warren Buffet and Etc.? Honesty, I think it will be neither of them at all. I think the old saying here is true. “If you want something done right, you gotta to do it yourself.”- Anonymous. It is pretty much up to all of us at this point as Humanity to take the wheel of the car and drive ourselves because they have proved to all of us time and again that they are simply not going to help save us. They are both so disconnected from reality that it is not funny at all. For example, I believe space exploration is extreme important. Sooner or later, we will need to find a new home among the stars when our Sun burns out. So the sooner, the better so to speak. However, we have just so much suffering in Humanity since forever. We literally have people dying simply because they cannot afford the bare necessities for their very survival such as clean drinking water, healthy food, heat during winter and etc. Something’s got to change. Otherwise, we can fully expect more of the same such as more fighting and violence breaking out such as all these protest or riots (whatever you want to call them) across the country. While all this is going on, all the grocery stores are not even able to keep bullets available for sale anymore due to the supple chain failing and people do not stop buying them because they are scared that eventually the Police will stop responding to 911 Calls for help. This is also when hunting season did not even began yet. To top all this off, I have heard people making a joke when they are buying bottle water. They say, “”When will they start to sell bottle air to breath?” I tell them not to joke about that please because the Chinese are already selling bottle air to help people breath due to all the air pollution caused by the burning of massive amounts of coal to help give power to their extremely large population. They bottled the air up here in America, Canada, Australia and etc. and sell it to the Chinese for marked up prices. We are all slowly dying right now. Most either do not know or care yet. While a few of us have started to understand what is going on. We do not have anyone to blame anymore but ourselves due to our own inaction. I have a possible solution that I think might give us our best chance of survival. A lot of people in power such as investors, politicians and etc. hate the people waking up because they simply do not want to lose power while the ship is going down head first. It is called a worker Co-op. Aptera Motors Corp. is helping to redefine what transportation could be like in the Age of Global Warming. In other news, our Society is facing severe wealth inequality issues that have not been seen since the 1920s! There are the haves and the haves nots. Aptera Motors Corp. could become a leader in the fight against Wealth Inequality. It seems to me that there are two main political groups in our Capitalist Economic System currently. There are the Workers (Labor) and the Investors (Capital). I have a possible solution up my sleeve to help resolve this important societal issue. My solution is called a Worker Cooperative (Worker Co-op). A Worker Cooperative (Worker Co-op) is a privately owned company that is 100% owned and operated by the workers themselves and no one else. When workers have a real financial stake (and not just a token financial stake) in the company that they work for, they tend to work much harder and care much more deeply about what they are doing rather than just trying to earn a paycheck there. Plus, they can earn much better financial compensation for themselves due to both their wages for their labor and dividends from their co-op investment. The biggest issue that I see right now is the ownership structure of the co-op. Basically, who owns what and why? Chris and Steve do not want to repeat the mistakes of the past ever again! Unfortunately, they both lost majority control of Aptera Motors Inc. by a hostile business takeover years ago. Aptera Motors Inc. investors thought they should go big or go home so to speak to try to make as much money as quickly as possible rather than relying on a slow and steady wins the race business approach. The Board of Directors led by Idealab put everything on the line in the unlikely hopes of winning a big business loan from the U.S. Department of Energy. Chris and Steve were replaced by Paul Wilbur, a businessman from Detroit, MI., USA. Paul Wilbur basically did not understand what he was doing at all. He helped to bankrupt several companies even before his time at Aptera Motors Inc. He helped to run Aptera Motors Inc. straight into the ground with everyone watching helplessly from afar. My solution to this ownership question is to help split the company’s ownership structure into two main groups. The first group of this company ownership structure would be 100% owned by Chris and Steve. It would consist of all of the Aptera Motors Corp. I.P. (Intellectual Property) Rights. They would be paid royalty rights of 1% of all profits for allowing Aptera Motors Co-op the right to use their I.P. Rights on a yearly basis. The second group of this company ownership structure would be 100% owned by all the Aptera Motors Corp. Employees (including Chris and Steve due to them being current employees of Aptera Motors Corp.) working there. It would consist of the Physical Property Rights (Real Estate, Bank Accounts, Raw Materials, Finished Vehicles and Etc.). In the unfortunate event of another bankruptcy, Chris and Steve would still retain their Full ownership rights of Aptera Motors Corp. I.P. (Trademarks, customer lists and etc.) They both could then try to restart Aptera Motors Corp. sometime later down the road when business conditions improve somewhat. The Aptera Motors Corp. Employees would have their entire financial stake in Aptera Motors Corp. be completely liquidated into hard cold cash on the barrel head so to speak. Unfortunately, all Aptera Motors Corp. Employees would lose a lot of money in their Aptera Motors Corp. Co-op Investments. However, they would still probably come out on top at the end of the day due to all the extra money they would have earned from their investor dividends in the Aptera Motors Cop-op rather than just being wage earning employees working there. Both sides would win at the end of the day by working together instead of fighting each other for table scraps. So how do we exactly help to pay for this Aptera Motors Co-op Idea to begin with? First off, all the Aptera Motors Corp. Employees would have to agree to setting up an Individual Worker Co-op Savings Account at their local bank or credit union. They would then be asked to please invest a portion of their weekly paycheck into their Individual Worker Co-op Savings Accounts. The more money that they invest in themselves via the co-op over the long-haul means having complete ownership of Aptera Motors Co-op sooner rather than later. It will help pay for itself in the long run here. I would suggest anywhere from 10% to 25% of a worker’s weekly paycheck to help bring this Co-op idea to life! Let us say that each employee gets paid $20.00 (USD) per hour. They work a 40-hour workweek. So, each employee would earn $20.00 (USD) per hour times 40-hour workweek equals $800.00 (USD) earned per workweek before any expenses are taken out. Let us say that every employee invests 10% of their total paycheck into the Aptera Motors Corp. Co-op Fund. So, $800.00 (USD) per workweek divided by ten (10% stake) equals $80.00 (USD) invested per workweek. $80.00 (USD) invested per workweek times 48 weeks in a year equals $3,840.00 (USD) per year. Let us say that there are now 30 Employees working at the Aptera Motors Corp. Co-op. So, 30 Aptera Motors Co-op Employees times $3,840.00 (USD) invested per year by each employee equals $115,200.00 (USD) raised per year through all the employee investments in the co-op. So, let’s say that Aptera Motors Co-op 2021 Valuation is $3,363,000.00 (USD). So Aptera Motors Co-op 2021 Valuation is $3,363,000.00 (USD) divided by $115,200.00 (USD) per year equals 30 Years to fully pay back all of Aptera Motors Corp. Shareholders (Investors). Plus, Aptera Motors Co-op Employees could also use their Co-op Investment Dividends (reinvest) to help pay back Aptera Motors Corp. Shareholders (Investors) sooner rather than later. However, all of the Outside Aptera Motors Corp. Shareholders (Investors) would at least eventually be paid back in full once and for all. Then Aptera Motors Co-op Employees will no longer have to listen to outside investors ever again! So Hostile Business Takeovers are prevented from ever taking place again! At the end of the day, business profits from all business operations could be paid out in five different ways once all the business expenses have been paid off in full first. These five different ways are: 1.) 20%- Aptera Motors Corp. Employee Shareholder Dividends. 2.) 20%- A Company’s Savings Account for a Rainy Day (Still need business insurance though.). 3.) 20%- Business Expansion (Business Growth) Plans. 4.) 20%- 0% Interest Free Bank Loans to other companies wanting to eventually become proud worker co-ops for the sake and betterment of their employees. 5.) 20%- The Co-op Employees Retirement Fund. When they choose to retire from the Co-op, all Co-op employees are required to sell back their Co-op Investment Stake back to the Co-op Employees Retirement Fund (20%). No exceptions! We sadly cannot allow any outside investors (non-workers) to be able to invest in the Co-op anymore to help prevent loss of employee control of the Co-op. In case of a possible Co-op’s Bankruptcy, investing all your life savings in one business can be a risky undertaking. So, a Co-op Mutual Fund Partnership Agreement could be established with a lot of other Co-ops worldwide and eventually on Mars to help spread out the risk of investment lost through financial diversification of investments. Most Co-op employees probably want to help support other Co-ops through their shopping trips using their hard-earned money. It can be hard sometimes to be able to quickly identify Co-op produced products from For-Profit Companies during shopping trips. Co-ops could rename their business name from Inc./Corp. to Co-op. So Aptera Motors Corp. could be renamed the Aptera Motors Co-op. When Aptera Motors Co-op buys back all of our shareholder (non-employee) equity stakes, Aptera Motors Co-op could pay an extra 10% to 30% Interest on top to their non-employee shareholders (Outside Investors) to help make sure that everyone feels that their financial assistance was very much appreciative. The last thing that I want to leave with you today is to think a little bit more about is that financial capital (money) is easy to move around the World at a moment’s notice on a computer screen via the internet to help find the best possible investment opportunities in the world at that time. On the other hand, most employees have many barriers in their way to finding the best employment opportunities for themselves and their families. Some of these employment opportunities barriers are Language, Citizenship, Education, Personal Wealth, Job Skills and etc. A Co-op is not going to help solve all of the world’s serious problems once and for all. Unfortunately, the world will still have problems until the end of time. However, if we can help to reduce the suffering of at least some people by helping those people to be able to better provide for themselves and their families through Co-ops, then it is an idea that I think we should be willing to explore further for the Good of Humanity please. I want to thank you for your time and help. I hope you have a great day! So what do you all think? Thanks again, Nathan

  • Patrick Liebknecht

    December 28, 2021 at 10:03 am

    I’m really not trying to be an Ahole about this whole thing, BUT

    We all know who these bills favor that are coming out of Washington right now…..

    The Chinese government that’s who

    now you wanna know why I say that correct?

    If you do any kind of research at all you will realize that Chyna controls 85% of the rare earth minerals that it takes to make electric vehicles when turbines solar panels you name it

    85% of the rare earth minerals come from China

    Say that out loud a couple of times when you think about this strong or push from the current administration to force America to be energy dependent on China.

    Even the rare earth minerals that we mine here gets sent to China to be refined and then sent back say that out loud a couple of times.

    Why do you think the current administration is bending over so hard to kiss The butt of the Chinese communist party?????

    • Lou Verner

      December 28, 2021 at 11:42 am

      Patrick, you obviously bring a “unique” perspective to some of the current forum threads. While I respectfully disagree with your thinly disguised political slant, which actually has no place here, I certainly hope you do not fall in the category of a “climate change denier”. Aptera has definitely made it their mission to offer the world a more sustainable vision of the future of transportation. Hope you agree!

    • John Malcom

      December 28, 2021 at 12:40 pm

      Let me second Lou Verner’s post.

      This forum is meant for discussion of the Aptera. The community guidance clearly states that no political posts should be made on the Forum. There are plenty of social media sites where you can express these views. Kindly refrain from doing so here.

  • Daniel Crotty

    December 28, 2021 at 4:33 pm

    I think Patrick missed another Excellent opportunity to keep his mouth shut!

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