Attendees of Gama Reveal info and critiques

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Attendees of Gama Reveal info and critiques

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Attendees of Gama Reveal info and critiques

  • Attendees of Gama Reveal info and critiques

     Dennis Swaney updated 2 weeks, 1 day ago 22 Members · 50 Posts
  • John Voules

    Member
    September 11, 2022 at 3:08 pm

    If you visited Super Charge…you have the best views and latest knowledge.

    Vehicle was painted….LOOKED AWSOME

    We weren’t allowed to touch vehicle until 2pm…I had privilege to be the first to sit in it, interior front visors, unfortunately we were not allowed to adjust the seat, it was set all he way back(I’m 5,7”. The screen is huge it dominates the whole cabin (my opinion is for a smaller screen so as not to dominate the interior. The side view mirrors did look stealthy and may even add to the appearance. The YOKE didn’t look as bad as I originally thought and actually blended well with the interior (didn’t appear so cartoonish).

    Charging format not decided

    1wiper Blade

    We will definitely have vehicle wrap. So please wrap your minds around that…pun intended.

    PLEASE IF YOU ATTENDED Add or critique.

  • Sam Adams

    Member
    September 11, 2022 at 3:16 pm

    Chris said paint was unlikely…sigh

    • John Voules

      Member
      September 11, 2022 at 3:28 pm

      Confirmed with others…..wrap

      • Kevin Bradbury

        Member
        September 11, 2022 at 4:56 pm

        Even though you couldn’t adjust the seat any, do you have an opinion on the seat’s comfort?

        • John Voules

          Member
          September 11, 2022 at 5:03 pm

          Kevin it was my number one thing to look at, not being able to adjust anything meant I had to live with bad seating position. Seats them selves felt somewhat German firm. I do feel that I would be able to adjust and be comfortable. But I can’t promise that. I know that there were many on the forum including myself that consider seating the priority.

        • Miles Hunter

          Member
          September 11, 2022 at 5:12 pm

          I’m 5’11” and the seat was a little too far back for me. I didn’t know I couldn’t adjust the seat so I moved it forward to where it felt right. I was in the act of lowering the yoke when I was stopped. I asked if I could close the door the see what it felt like but was told I couldn’t. All in all, it was firm and comfortable. I asked the guy in the passenger seat to pretend we were on a flight together and fighting for the armrest. The armrest was fine, bigger than some cars. I was surprised to find out I had to duck under the door to get close enough to get in. I’d suspected it might be hard to get in and out. It wasn’t but the experience was diminished somewhat by having to duck my head before I got in and again after getting out.

          • John Voules

            Member
            September 11, 2022 at 5:20 pm

            Sounds like a two man job. One needs to get in the car and the other distract the Aptera observer. 😇

          • James Gatan

            Member
            September 11, 2022 at 5:32 pm

            Miles, probably grab handles would help, for easier ingress and egress of our Aptera. This should be added, as standard interior equipment (as in other cars).

            • Miles Hunter

              Member
              September 11, 2022 at 5:36 pm

              The actual ingress and egress were not difficult, as I suspected they might be. It was just a surprise to me that the door represents an obstacle, I’d never considered that. Not bad enough to cancel an order, nothing like that. Maybe just something to get used to.

            • Paul Kirchner

              Member
              September 11, 2022 at 5:59 pm

              What do mean, the door being an obstacle?

            • Miles Hunter

              Member
              September 11, 2022 at 6:15 pm

              All of what I’ve said about getting in and out is about having to duck my head under the open door to get close enough to do either.

            • John Voules

              Member
              September 11, 2022 at 6:26 pm

              For me it was a slight obstacle going in and out. Your head gets close to the lowest point of the door. My feeling though is once you do it a few times it will be a no brainer. Feet were also something that you will also need to assort your style, 1 foot at a time in conjunction to sitting at the same time (difficult skill). Or sit first with feet outside and go over 1 at a time. As mentioned by James Gatan to have assist handles would definitely make it less of a yoga thing.

            • James Gatan

              Member
              September 11, 2022 at 6:01 pm

              I’d imagine grab handles would help me leverage to lift my butt while getting out, as well as something to grasp with my right hand securely while I maneuver my right thigh/lift right leg to get in. Quite helpful too, esp when my Aptera is parked in my one car apartment garage. I’ll surely inquire this to be added, when I finally get that order call from Aptera.

    • Scott

      Member
      September 11, 2022 at 3:37 pm

      Yeah, I was really hoping they were going to be able to figure out how to paint it, too, even as an extra cost upgrade option. Sounds like it is definitely on us to fix that after purchase. Otherwise, a mostly incredible vehicle.

      • George Hughes

        Member
        September 11, 2022 at 6:57 pm

        “Fix that?” … don’t you mean customize that. It is fine with the wrap. I suspect by 2026, there will be advertising companies willing to give you a new free wrap if they can put their ‘advertised’ stuff on your Aptera for a month.

        • Scott

          Member
          September 11, 2022 at 8:09 pm

          No, I meant fix that. There are many known longevity issues with vinyl wraps, especially for a vehicle intended to otherwise excel out in the sun. The continually increasing financial, environmental, and time/maintenance costs to owners with repeated rounds of new vinyl wraps (compared to paint) are well documented elsewhere on this forum. No need for us to go over it all again, George.

          Chris said a while back that they were going to revisit the initial wrap decision (around the time that online backlash started mounting about it), though did not commit to changing it. Apparently that went nowhere and they have re-confirmed their initial decision. Chris’ recent comments trying to act like it is a benefit that owners will have the “opportunity” to change their vehicle colors every few years was an unfortunate way to acknowledge that wraps do not last as long or as well as paint.

          If you want your vehicle to be a gaudy billboard, it is a good opportunity for you personally. I have less than zero interest in that. Since you and anyone else can do that right now with any vehicle and it is very rare to see anywhere, I expect there is extremely low broader appeal to that idea.

          • George Hughes

            Member
            September 12, 2022 at 8:44 am

            Paint, IMHO, is like makeup on a pretty, competent, intelligent, independent, self-assured person of either sex – it is expensive (regulations will kill your cost and adding in unnecessary operational capital costs to provide a rust protection to a surface that doesn’t need it simply adds to the cost of the vehicle.)

            The only time you really need it is when you’re on stage or when you’re about to resell the vehicle.

            The point is that painting is not a core competency of Aptera and considering that it is for all the steel-based manufacturing companies (they have to paint or else the vehicle rusts). Now consider the number of bad paint jobs that come from around the world from the factories.

            I can recall more than one of my vehicles paint jobs being gross … like the 84 Taurus whose clear coat on the top, back deck and hood, was popping off the clear coat blisters in an ugly mess before eight years had passed.

            It is really absurd to think that paint is that great solution when actually it opens up a whole can of worms (litigation). Click here for an example in duckduckgo (a search engine that doesn’t track you). GM, Ford, Honda, Toyota … all the biggies are sued left and right.

            There are enough class actions out there over paint to make me wonder if you’re day job is that of a lawyer.

            • Scott

              Member
              September 12, 2022 at 6:10 pm

              George, I personally believe you take selective information and create wild ideas to reinforce your belief that vinyl wraps are a good thing. Unfortunately, facts don’t support the Kool-Aid being drank there.

              Longevity differences between vinyl wraps and paint are well documented (again, reference multiple other forum posts). Your selective anecdote of one 1984 Taurus is irrelevant; imagine how many anecdotes worse than that we would have if all of the world’s vehicle manufacturers thought that vinyl wraps were a good thing and used them, which they of course don’t (and please don’t respond with some negligible corner case company). The vast majority of them do not get regularly sued for their paint. Agreed that paint apparently is not a core competency of Aptera; nonetheless, 99.9% of the world’s vehicle manufacturers have figured it out and Aptera has figured out far more difficult things than basic paint. I believe your supposition that a vehicle owner only wants a vehicle to look good when “you’re on stage or when you’re about to resell the vehicle” stands on its own as confirmation of your personal perspective which does not necessarily relate to the rest of the world and the vehicle buying public.

              You also ignore the opportunities to outsource (minimal capital investment) and the long term expanding owner costs that will be financial, environmental, and time/maintenance.

              I suggest that you go to a Corvette owners club and see how many of them are painted versus wrapped, even though it is not a metal-bodied car. And even if you find some outlier wrapped Corvette to provide a coveted minor anecdote, did it come wrapped from the factory? What is underneath that wrap?

              We will agree to disagree. I will be wanting to fix this flaw in an otherwise generally terrific vehicle.

            • V Pilot

              Member
              September 13, 2022 at 9:38 am

              Original paint on my Subaru. Oh yeah it’s a ’97 and not a garage queen. I just dug it out of the side yard and washed it, because winter’s coming and don’t trust my truck to make my delivery date. New battery, tires, brakes, and other items to recommission to make road worthy. I doubt wrap would tolerate that kind of neglect. It’s a NY car it’s entire life. She’s got some rust because I don’t wash or wax it.

              • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 6 days ago by  V Pilot.
            • Dan Roberts

              Member
              September 17, 2022 at 10:57 pm

              Scott, It is a cost thing. You don’t want to have a paint booth and all that entails. Wraps are lighter and cheaper. If you don’t like the wrap you can take it off and paint or go natural. It would require just that much more time to get it into production not to mention the extraordinary cost of the paint shop.

            • Curtis Cibinel

              Member
              September 17, 2022 at 11:23 pm

              Cosmetic ppf might be a good option; similar application to vinyl but more expensive. Aptera is small so material cost difference isn’t huge. Thicker and more durable. Warranties are up to 10 years (common for paint is generally 3). It is possible it could be as durable as paint.

            • Dennis Swaney

              Member
              September 18, 2022 at 4:00 pm

              You can’t see the PPF on my Miata unless you lay down on the pavement as it is bolted to both the transmission and the differential. 😉

            • Scott

              Member
              September 18, 2022 at 9:45 am

              Dan, painting can be outsourced. Aptera does not need to own or invest in the “paint booth.” Then the capital cost is on someone else and the in-line manufacturing is actually potentially simplified (no manual labor wrapping needed).

            • Curtis Cibinel

              Member
              September 18, 2022 at 10:02 am

              Outsourcing painting means you are paying for the outsource company profit, labour, facility costs, and administration. At 40 per day this will greatly exceed capacity of a single oneoff shop and be quite expensive. Aptera has very aggressive pricing and paying $3000+ per vehicle to be painted is likely more than their current profit margin. It must also be said that arguments of environmental impact still apply regardless of if the painting occurs in Aptera’s facilities or not.

              Regarding arguments against vinyl specifically:

              • Aptera will take roughly 12 square meters of wrap since it is quite small and the top isnt wrapped. Wrap is 50 microns thick
              • Each square meter of vinyl wrap is ~150g. A LP record is ~130g. 14 LP records could wrap an aptera (my friend has 6000 of them)
              • The environmental impact of LP records is 12x worse than CDs (vinyl is kinda nasty)
              • The environmental impact of the vinyl wrap for an Aptera is equivalent to 168 CDs or 6 lb of plastic. The body of the Aptera is probably the equivalent of 50-100x worse being polycarbonate and likely 300-500lb
              • Overall this is a drop in the bucket in the lifecycle of the vehicle even if vinyl is reapplied several times.
            • John Voules

              Member
              September 18, 2022 at 10:17 am

              Curtis, you maybe way off on your painting cost for each vehicle. Painting 6 separate body panels prior to install and let’s say painting 60 panels at a time (10 vehicles) the same color will not cost 30k.

              Yes businesses are created to make a profit but at the same time APTERA will not be investing 10s of millions for a painting facility.

              Yes our first produced vehicles will be wrapped…no doubt.

              I do see a future where APTERA will either subcontract out painting or develop a paint center once they have 3 factories running in the US with a centrally located paint shop that will supply all three factories. Once painting becomes a reality, I don’t expect many orders for a wrapped vehicle.

            • Scott

              Member
              September 18, 2022 at 10:28 am

              Curtis, I agree with you that there are larger environmental concerns in the production of any vehicle, including Aptera. I was just responding to your own comment saying that paint was environmentally bad (wraps definitely are environmentally bad too, and actually appear worse). They are of course already outsourcing many other parts of the Aptera. It is not as if everything else is manufactured in-house.

              Regarding paint costs: There will also be all of those same categories of costs for Aptera to manually add wraps to every vehicle. Pre-painted body parts could actually help expedite production and potentially enable more vehicles to be produced each day. The “surface coating” work would be done offsite and not slow down the onsite manufacturing process flow like wraps will. They would need to be more careful in the transportation of the body parts to the Aptera factory, however.

              And, as I have frequently said, I and others appear willing to pay for any extra cost that paint may entail. Aptera should make this an option that provides MORE profit and does not reduce profit. Then people who want a cheap, short life-span product can have it and other people who actually want a more robust, “multi-generational”, solar-exposure-ready vehicle can get that too (at additional cost/profit).

            • Sam Adams

              Member
              September 18, 2022 at 10:57 am

              Scott, how could anyone debate against paint with all you said there??? It’s a win win win!!!

            • Curtis Cibinel

              Member
              September 18, 2022 at 12:48 pm

              Chris was very clear the vehicle will be wrapped with “film” at Fully Charged. Cosmetic PPF may actually be longer lasting than paint (longer warranties and is self healing when heated). Since Aptera will have processes and staff for wrapping use of Cosmetic PPF is a far smaller change. I agree with you that vinyl will not last as long as people would want for “multi-generational” vehicles especially with UV exposure. If the cost is perhaps $2000-2500 for cosmetic PPF (vs $1500 for a custom color in vinyl) it would be a better option given longevity and cool color shift materials.

            • LoveAptera YokeDealbreaker

              Member
              September 12, 2022 at 6:18 pm

              Here, here, for a fellow DuckDuckGo user! 🍻

        • Sam Adams

          Member
          September 12, 2022 at 3:40 am

          Wrap is not fine at all, it’s for the aftermarket. OEM should always be paint that last for generations. I highly doubt Chris wrapped his boats.

          • John Trotter

            Moderator
            September 15, 2022 at 5:12 pm

            Actually, he said it was an option on his boats and at least a third of the owners preferred it.

            • Sam Adams

              Member
              September 16, 2022 at 11:45 am

              Sure would like to know what that 1/3 think about their wrap now.

    • Lauren Brimmer Brimmer

      Member
      September 12, 2022 at 8:24 pm

      And Chris also said how incredibly costly paint is from a manufacturing standpoint… paint-shop setup is something like 35% of the cost of a production line. After seeing gorgeous wrapped Teslas at the show, I think I agree with the wrap in concept, though I’m still understanding the details.

      • Scott

        Member
        September 12, 2022 at 11:33 pm

        Lauren, that goes on the assumption of Aptera painting in-house. And remember that those eye candy wrapped Teslas are brand new, not several+ years old after sitting out charging in the sun.

        Aptera is already outsourcing in many areas, and this could include painting, too. Then they do not need to invest in any paint shop setup at all and they can provide an upgrade option at additional cost (and profit) for those who do not want cheap vinyl wraps. Every customer gets what they want and Aptera makes more money for their efforts.

        Absolutely, there are additional manufacturing / logistics details to make that happen. Just like there are additional details to changing battery pack sizes, and FWD vs. AWD, and etc. I would recommend limiting it at first to just the current 3 base colors without other paint color options, so as to reduce inventory and complexity. Perhaps batch manufacture specific colors all together at repeating occasional intervals so that there is no inline back and forth on the assembly line between pre-painted body sections and “naked” body sections that are still to be manually wrapped. They could expand the paint color palette over time, if there is sufficient demand (likely).

        A lot of the things the Aptera team has already figured out is more impressive “rocket science” than paint… Nonetheless, vinyl wrap is the plan. Hopefully, addressing this issue is on their longer term product improvement roadmap.

        • John Voules

          Member
          September 13, 2022 at 6:58 am

          As far as I know most auto manufacturers paint the whole car with automated heavy industrial equipment. Why not just paint the parts as individual pieces prior to assembly. With having just a few pieces to actually assemble, I can’t imagine that would be overly costly. Don’t need to do it in-house, there are paint specialist out there that can handle painting individual panels. Yes it will cost more than wrapping but wrapping is also labor intensive and the added cost of painting shouldn’t be that much more if parts are painted individually in a wholesale setting. Maybe paint 40 panels or so at a time prior to assembly. I predict that the first 1000 or so California bound APTERAs will be wrapped, I hope by then they will find a way to ship painted cars across the country. The vast majority of Americans don’t have any experience with wrapped vehicles and APTERA itself may find that they will be limiting their market by not painting. Typically when the market demands something the sellers need to react or loose possible sales.

  • Joshua Rosen

    Member
    September 12, 2022 at 6:54 am

    The most exposed surfaces are covered with solar cells, unless they use a transparent wrap you can’t cover those with vinyl. It’s only the wheel cowlings and doors that are going to be wrapped, those surfaces aren’t in direct sunlight.

    • Scott

      Member
      September 12, 2022 at 6:18 pm

      The tops of the wheel pants are upward facing to direct sunlight. The front nose above the headlights is upward facing to direct sunlight. The sides and aft perimeter around the back hatch are upward facing to direct sunlight. The sides of doors, body, and wheel pants will be receiving angled sunlight and sometimes direct sunlight depending upon orientation.

      So, even if only the wheel pants, nose, and back top perimeter of the vehicle quickly degrades faster than the sides, those top areas are highly visible parts of the vehicle which will make the whole vehicle look shabby if they look shabby.

  • Sam Adams

    Member
    September 12, 2022 at 11:08 am

    Well, I appreciate being given the opportunity to share my thoughts on paint. It is what it is and people are people. I’ve no control over any of it.

    • Bob Kirchner

      Member
      September 12, 2022 at 2:26 pm

      At this stage my plan is to live with the wrap, then when it inevitably fails have my Aptera painted at a body shop.

      It least the quality of the finish isn’t critical for rust resistance, so a cheap “re-spray” will be good enough for me. If the person who gets it after die wants better…

      maybe they can have it wrapped?

      • John Voules

        Member
        September 12, 2022 at 8:25 pm

        Possibility if the wrap lasts me 5 years or so in Chicago that there may be a leap in evolution for wrapping technology. Something that may last considerably longer and also repel anything that comes in contact with, like a strong wax. I know I’m reaching here, at the end if it doesn’t happen I will definitely paint.

  • Bryan Hendricks

    Member
    September 12, 2022 at 8:09 pm

    I liked the lenses on the rear lights. I was surprised to see how smoothly the solar cells lay on the hood panel. The Elaphe motors were smaller than I expected. The fabric surface on the center console did not lay as uniformly as I expected. The rear of the trunk was narrower than I expected (but I should have expected that). The rear hatch sets into a trough in the body, but I didn’t see a way for water to get out of the trough. I didn’t see anything to scare me away. In fact, I’m more excited about it than when I boarded a plane to San Diego that morning.

    • Russell Fauver

      Member
      September 16, 2022 at 9:50 am

      @Bryan, funny you mention the possibility of trapped water at the rear hatch. That’s the first thing I thought of when I saw it! But again, this is just a Gamma vehicle, I’m sure the production car will have a drain back there.

  • Bryan Hendricks

    Member
    September 13, 2022 at 6:13 am

    There is a piece of metal (that appears to be aluminum) connecting the body to the front wheel. Below that is another, darker thing connecting the body to the wheel. It has a lightly textured finish and appears to be a folded piece of rigid plastic. I suspect that plastic is used to cover the tubes and the lower connector in a way that is more aerodynamic.

    • Harry Parker

      Moderator
      September 15, 2022 at 11:22 am

      I saw in show videos with employee interviews at the show that the bottom connector holds the cables and cooling lines. Also the lower cover will be different — probably with a snapped on cover piece more like the top piece. Only about 80% of the what you see in Gamma is production intent. Lots of little things will change based on testing.

  • Francis Giroux

    Member
    September 15, 2022 at 4:50 pm

    With all the talk here about paint vs wrap, I have one question I have asked before but still have no answer for. Maybe now that many of you have seen and sat in the Gamma, maybe you can answer this question: The parts of the upper half of the vehicle that are black (like the A pillar, the B pillar, the hatch, the nose cone, the side windows separators), are these vinyl wrapped or are they painted or are they black composite? I think wrapping them would be lots of work, and painting then makes sense, but I haven’t seen the car. Which is it?

    • Curtis Cibinel

      Member
      September 16, 2022 at 10:02 am

      I’m choosing to believe that the fact Chris called it film means cosmetic paint protection film (ppf) since the term film isn’t generally used for vinyl wrap. It is similarly applied, costs more and lasts way longer. I’d gladly pay a premium for cosmetic ppf rather than vinyl if needed. Cosmetic Ppf has warrenties up to 10 years so it will probably last as well as paint. Unlike vinyl the material isn’t readily available to consumers so it kills the idea of a diy job but if it’s done in the factory initially and lasts I don’t care.

      • Romeo Salcedo

        Member
        September 16, 2022 at 11:14 am

        would like my aptera without the wheel covers on all wheels. how much do i lose in efeciency?

        • Harry Parker

          Moderator
          September 17, 2022 at 3:07 pm

          You would also lose the ability to drive your fenderless vehicle on public roads legally. It’s OK to do that for offroad use with no one around. The problem is that without fenders stones can be kicked up by the tires and thrown in all directions doing damage or injury to those nearby.

          • Dennis Swaney

            Member
            September 17, 2022 at 3:45 pm

            Nah, just put a couple of motorcycle style ones on the top arc.

            But on the other hand, aren’t the front turn indicators on the front of the wheel shrouds?

            I’d probably replace the on-road shrouds with the off-road ones or at least cutoff the lower third of the shrouds, keeping the turn indicators.

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