Battery fires

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Battery fires

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Battery fires

  • Battery fires

     Leo Shapiro updated 1 month, 2 weeks ago 13 Members · 18 Posts
  • Pistonboy Delux

    Member
    August 8, 2022 at 10:52 pm

    Are EV battery fires a thing of the past? I don’t hear about of them in the media. Perhaps the media found other things to hype about. Cell phones formerly had fires in the past but they do not anymore. This is the only reason I have reservations about the NMC cell chemistry.

  • Vernon Michael Gardner

    Member
    August 8, 2022 at 11:29 pm

    Those phone and battery vehicle fires were used as scare and ratings tactics. Battery fires in vehicles were found to be 0.05%.

  • kerbe2705

    Member
    August 8, 2022 at 11:38 pm

    @Pistonboy Delux The truth is about numbers – but numbers and truth don’t sell advertising on TV news. In the US in 2021 there were fewer than one EV fire per week but there were over 3800 ICE fires per week. We are so used to burning fuel-powered cars that they’re no longer considered “news”.

    Remember the massive Chevy Bolt recall to replace all the batteries in 141,000 Bolts because a total of 16 cars caught fire?

    The NMC 811 cells Aptera has chosen are each encased in a steel tube – to date this type of cell (similar to those used in Tesla vehicles) have ignited only when they were seriously damaged in some way. The majority of EV makers, though, use “pouch” cells: Soft foil packets that are racked into metal boxes. It seems that the majority of “pouch cell” fires have been due to manufacturing defects.

    So, if you’re going to worry about your vehicle’s power source going up in flames, worry most about the vehicle that’s filled with explosively flammable liquid.

    • Pistonboy Delux

      Member
      August 9, 2022 at 12:15 am

      Yes, I know there are far fewer battery fires than gasoline fires. However, most gasoline fires happen in the open, not inside the garage.

      • Markus Schmid

        Member
        August 9, 2022 at 12:46 am

        If the reverse conclusion (that most battery fires were in garages), then it might help to park the Aptera outside. 😜

        As it had been said, the infamous Chevy Bolt has (or used to have?) pouch cells which are way more prone to ignite. Furthermore I totally trust the Aptera team to come up with a way more than just “good enough” battery managment system, and I also am optimisttic that also other car manufacturers will pay much more attention to this by the media overblown issue, so that spontaneous battery fires soon might be a thing of a remote but never forgotten past.

      • Chris Merriott

        Member
        August 11, 2022 at 9:57 am

        Not sure what makes you assume that ICE car fires don’t happen in garages. As I firefighter, I can tell you that plenty of car fires happen in or very near garages.

  • Paul Carlucci

    Member
    August 9, 2022 at 4:40 am

    Almost all the EV battery fires involved LG pouch cells, and to the best of my knowledge all the EV models that used LG pouch cells in the US as well as the LG RESU home batteries all experienced fires. The Bolt got the headlines because of its popularity but for example the 2017-2018 Pacifica Hybrid has had at last check 15 fires out of a population of only 19K vans which is a ratio far higher than the Bolt while having a battery pack less than one third the capacity.

    Unlike the Bolt which would flambé while driving the Pacifica Hybrid tends more towards going off during or after charging, which generally means parked in a driveway or garage, taking the house with it. The RESU is particularly nasty since they’re permanently installed in a house and some of them were installed inside the living space as advertised.

  • Pistonboy Delux

    Member
    August 9, 2022 at 7:01 am

    Is it unreasonable to be concerned about EV battery fires? No, it is not unreasonable. It is rare for houses to burn down, but we all have home owners insurance, don’t we?

    EV battery fires appears to be one more of those chances in life we have to “get use to”. I suspect with time we, as EV owners, will forget about it and life will go on.

    • Dean McManis McManis

      Member
      August 9, 2022 at 11:59 am

      You pretty much dismissed the major point that gas vehicle fires are 10 times as common as EV fires, per mile driven. So my question to you is if you are this concerned with battery fires, which are extremely rare, why aren’t you horribly worried about gas vehicle fires, which happen 10 times as much? The answer is the internet influence, which ignores all gas vehicle fires, and sensationalizes the rare EV fires, because those stories get clicks.

      • Joshua Rosen

        Member
        August 9, 2022 at 12:32 pm

        One in a thousand ICEVs catch fire every year, one in 10,000 EVs catch fire every year. That’s why you don’t worry about fires. Insurance companies aren’t that worried about it either, accidents are orders of magnitude more likely than a fire.

  • Joshua Rosen

    Member
    August 9, 2022 at 7:24 am

    An iPace caught fire last week, it uses the same LG cells as the Bolt, Hyundai and VW which have all had fires. There was a Plaid fire on one of the very first Plaids to be released that happened within a week or two of the Plaid’s release, that seems to be a one off. Tesla fires are mostly the result of high speed crashes.

    LFP batteries are much safer than NMC or NMA batteries. CATL is now releasing LMFP batteries which add manganese to the LFP formula, haven’t seen anything about their safety. Solid state batteries are supposed to be immune from fires, however since there are a lot of different SS batteries being developed and none of them are on the market yet it remains to be seen it that claim is true.

    The figure that Tesla has bandied about is that EVs are only 10% as likely to catch fire as an ICEV.

    • Pistonboy Delux

      Member
      August 9, 2022 at 8:22 am

      Interesting. You mentioned solid state batteries. I have not heard much about them lately. Maybe we will be hearing more about them when it is a slow day in the news room.

      • Dennis Swaney

        Member
        August 9, 2022 at 8:30 am

        Probably not unless someone is killed or severely injured by them. Remember the driving credo of the media is: “If it bleeds, it leads!”

      • Joshua Rosen

        Member
        August 9, 2022 at 9:26 am

        It will be a business story not a general interest story. By the time SS batteries hit the market it will just be a question of whether they can compete with whatever the mainstream batteries are available at the time. It won’t be enough to have higher energy densities, range is already getting close to good enough, or better life expectancy, NMCs are good enough already and LFPs last several times as long as necessary. It will all be about cost and that’s a moving target. To put this in perspective CATL is going to start shipping their LMFPs at the end of this year. They are claiming an energy density of 230Wh/Kg vs about 170KWh/Kg for standard LFPs and 270Wh/Kg for NMAs. That’s this year, by the time SS batteries hit the market in 2025 or so where will the costs and density of mainstream batteries be? That’s why I say it will only be a story on the business pages. Consumer’s won’t be worrying about the type of battery is in their car because they will all be good enough, they will only be concerned about the price of the car.

      • James Gatan

        Member
        August 10, 2022 at 12:53 pm

        Toyota has the most patents on Solid State batteries (1,331). They are SLOW as molasses in the BEV realm concurrently. But knowing the Japanese..conservative Toyota will eventually come out with a BANG.

        https://www.thedrive.com/tech/toyota-has-twice-as-many-solid-state-battery-patents-than-anyone-else

  • Qiang Fu

    Member
    August 10, 2022 at 11:27 am

    Nonflammable and low-temperature performance sodium-ion battery is on the horizon:

    https://electrek.co/2022/07/14/sodium-ion-battery-breakthrough/https://electrek.co/2022/07/14/sodium-ion-battery-breakthrough/

    • John Malcom

      Member
      August 10, 2022 at 12:27 pm

      Battery Tech Is accelerating at a rapid pace. Aptera has put their stake in the ground for iteration one of their production vehicle and hinted at the follow on battery. Joshua Rosen is spot on with his post. it is hard to predict what the next great battery thing will be, but it is a business decision with a number of factors in the value proposition. Certainly cost being a major factor.

      The battery terms and conditions of the incentive legislation will be a consideration for the chemistry of battery tech. Eventually the tech will migrate from needing lithium, nickel, and cobalt and the Chinese advantage will start to dissipate.

  • Leo Shapiro

    Member
    August 12, 2022 at 2:51 pm

    Battery fires will always be a risk. You can’t get away from the fact batteries contain energy, EV batteries contain a ton of it. There are still risks of ICE car fires from poor maintenance or damage.

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