Battery size/range selection

[bojan-majdandzic]

I wonder if the mentioned ranges for the battery packs is a theoretical range with battery charge of 100% to 0% or the practical 80% to 20%.

[joshua-rosen]

It’s 0-100, EPA numbers are always 0-100. Real world range should always start with 80% of the EPA number to leave room at the top to protect the battery and at the bottom to give you some margin for getting to your destination. You should then derate that number for speed and temperature. They haven’t said if they will have a heat pump so I’d assume that they won’t which means that in winter the range will drop by as much as 40% if you have the heat on. Speed also matters, the range at 75 will be less than the EPA number, if you are on a back road on a perfect day you can beat the EPA number. For example yesterday I did a 100 mile round trip to Jaffery NH in my Model 3, I averaged 199Wh/mile, the EPA number for the 2019 AWD Model 3 is 234. The temperature was 75 so no effort was needed by the AC and I was entirely on back roads which meant that my speeds were between 30 and 45 MPH.

[OZ.]

I’m not going to weigh in on the range issue, everyone has their ideas on what’s best, and I’ll do what I feel is best for me. However, as I recall, the solar panels are supposed to charge at all times. (At least when they’re getting solar radiation.) The only exception being when the car is being charged with a D/C Charger.

[harry-parker]

Here are some factors to consider:

1. The mileage is an estimate based on the US standard combined city and highway driving cycle of the EPA. It’s top speed is something like 70 mph and its average speed is much less, something like 47 mph. (Don’t quote me because I don’t have the numbers at hand.) So . . .

2. Your mileage may vary. ???? In particular,

3. Your high speed mileage WILL be less.

4. Your uphill mileage will be less. (And downhill will be more. ????)

5. Your mileage with the heat on will be less.

6. Your mileage with the AC on will be less.

7. Your mileage in rain and snow and headwinds will be less.

On the other hand, driving with a tailwind and your stop & go city driving and backroad driving on a nice cool day will be MORE. ????

8. You won’t want to go to 0% charge so subtract at least 5 or 10% to your distance between charges for that as well.

9. That “40 (or 46) miles per day” from the sun is in OPTIMUM conditions: Summer Sun on a dry cool day. See the solar calculator for YOUR particular average summer and winter day in YOUR location. Here in NJ I’ll be lucky to get 3/4th of that.

The really good news as far as I’m concerned is that Tesla recently announced they were opening their Supercharging network to all brands of EVs, starting next year. That means you’ll have access to the world’s largest network of high speed chargers wherever you go.

[george-hughes]

I too selected the 400 mile ~40kw battery package. I’ve got an EVSE so I could get by easily with the smaller battery.

First, I’m retired and there are a lot of roads I’ve never explored. I want a car that will let me listen to an audio book in one trip. The 400-mile Aptera is good for a full day trip lasting at least 10 hours on the backwoods roads. I figure most of my trips will be more modest – 150 mile round trip but I don’t want to worry about it.

But rather than get confused by the ‘mileage’ potential of the Aptera, consider that in today’s market a 40kw battery is on the low side. My Spark EV had about a 22kw battery and it’s EPA was 82 miles. That implies that 40kw would move a small EV 164 miles on the EPA cycle. Aptera’s 400 miles range comes more from the efficiency of Aptera than it does buying some massive battery pack.

People who are really off-grid and need the 100kw battery for V2H is one reasonable use. Another is when the Aptera has V2V charging and, because of its operating efficiency, it is the vehicle recommended for the first call for road service at service stations everywhere.

[joshua-rosen]

For someone who only does one road trip a year 400 miles will be plenty. 400 EPA miles will translate into about 300 miles of real world driving. For trips around your metropolitan area and even for trips to nearby cities you’ll be able to do them with no charging. As an example we went to Portland Maine from Massachusetts for dinner yesterday. I have a Model 3, I charged it to 90% before leaving and we did the 233 mile trip without charging, I got home with 13% in the battery. When new my Model 3 had 310 miles of range, as far as I can tell it’s 293 now, so a 400 mile car would have zero problem with a trip like that. For your 375 trip you’ll have to charge. If I were you I’d look at a map of the chargers along your route. Aptera hasn’t given a final determination of which standard they will use, they’ve teased a Tesla plug and that would be fantastic if that’s the way they go but I’d give it a 90% chance that they will use CCS. So look at the CCS chargers along your route, you’ll only need one but it should be a reliable so Electrify America is preferred because they have multiple chargers at each location, only half as many as Tesla but still more than one which is the case for most CCS locations at the moment. If there are CCS chargers along your route then the 400 mile version will be fine. If not order the 600 mile version, it will do that trip without the need for fast charging.

[kerbe2705]

In perfect, cloudless weather conditions with a full-solar Aptera sitting in direct sunlight over the course of an 8-hour day, the vehicle will store 4 kWh in its battery (unless some of that solar power is drawn-off to run the flow-through ventilation system). If the vehicle uses 1 kWh to travel 10 miles, that’s the “40 miles of solar range”.

A FWD Aptera will have two 50 kW motors – the equivalent of one 100 kW motor. I found some figures from an EV with a 64 kW motor: When accelerating from a full stop, the motor draws 50+ kW from the battery. Traveling at 70 mph on a flat highway in clear weather with no considerable wind it draws a continuous 15-20 kW. So, even though an Aptera’s solar cells will to generate power in the presence of light, they will not generate enough power to seriously affect the vehicle’s performance or range while it is being driven.

Another thing to consider is that all we really know about range at speed comes from vehicles that are not nearly so light and aerodynamic as Aptera: CTO Nathan has said that the aero benefit kicks-in at speeds above 45 mph – so, for all we know, Apteras may not see a significant difference in range between city and highway driving. The big difference – with all current EVs – is that highway driving (using CC or ACC) involves very little regeneration while stop-and-go city driving reaps the benefit thereof.

[robert-klasson]

Well, 15-20 kW in another EV would translate to 6-8 kW for the Aptera. Full solar at 700 W would translate into a 10% range increase in optimum conditions.

Efficient aerodynamics helps most at high speeds because that’s where the aerodynamic drag is the dominating force. The aerodynamic drag probably decrease just as much at low speeds, but at low speed, other forces are a larger part of the total, so aerodynamic drag is less of an issue.

I wouldn’t be surprised if someone light footed and good at hypermiling would get 1000 miles of range out of a 400 mile variant, even without solar.

[robert-horton]

For the algorithm that estimates the range when various options are enabled or disabled. Does it also take into account the predicted weather along the route, estimated day/night time, and therefore the amount of sunlight contributing to the range from the solar cells?

[vincent-rodgers]

This is what I’ve been wondering. 1,000 mile range. Is that in city driving only? I’d love to know what REAL WORLD range is (combined city & hwy driving) for each of the battery sizes so I can decide which one to get when I place my order. I don’t want to spend more than I’ll ever use & don’t want to carry around excess weight baggage of an oversized battery pack that I’ll never need to use. Does anyone have any solid info on this? I don’t mind buying the 1k range battery if I’m going to need it for regular everyday use. I previously looked at the Zero electric motorcycle and learned that it’s range dropped quite a lot at hwy speeds.

[len]

The old info I have is OLD and everything has to be validated anyway

~ 10% range hit for AWD

~ 1% range hit for every 30#, but I don’t the wait of an off wheel package, etc

I understand, for battery healthy “ routinely” people don’t charge much more than 85% of battery

I am sure you know cold and heat will impact and speeds over -65mph and inclines too.. like any EV

Then there is the payload capacity of 500# but that is more a suspension/ride concern

[peter-jorgensen]

Give it 6 months.

Real world range varies drastically for no good reason across EV brands. Teslas struggle to reach their rating. The Kia Niro EV on the other hand gets a good 35% more range than it’s EPA rating.

Like any EV, if you plan for 50% you should be fine in the snow on the interstate. So if you need to drive 4 hours at 70 between towns (280 miles) double it (560) and buy the 600 mile version and you’ll be super safe on trips.

In my experience “300” miles of ideal range is enough for road trips in the lower 48 but more would be nice for fewer stops and longer legs. I’d get the 600 if you take a lot of road trips in the west, otherwise 400 is plenty for most.

[john-malcom]

Battery range is of great interest as it is a key feature of Aptera. Until the final prototype version of the Aptera undergoes testing to include battery range we will not know the answer to range questions. Most of what we know now is based on engineering estimates and simulation. I am sure pretty close but certainly not official and nothing I would use to plan with.

Remember, you don’t need to make a decision on the configuration of your vehicle until your number comes up on the reservation list. By that point all performance information from testing will have been available and you can make an informed choice.

If you are down the list somewhat you will also have real world experience from owners to draw on as well.

Don’t worry be happy, as the song says.????

And yes, the 500lb load limit includes passengers. I am sure you could carry more just like you can overload any car or truck, but then you will not get the advertised performance.

[ray-holan]

Vince, you may also want to consider the impact on acceleration of the larger battery packs. Of course, taking a passenger with you will slow you down and reduce your range somewhat.

Aptera lists curb weight of the vehicle without driver or passenger as 1,800-2,000 lbs.

However, if you figure the 25kWh pack configuration is 1,800 lbs. and gets you about 250 miles of range, going to the 1,000 mile max pack will likely add much more than an additional 200 lbs. (the difference between 1,800 and 2,000 lb. curb weight as listed in the current Aptera brochure I’ve seen).

As others have stated, we can only speculate at this stage of Aptera development about the range you and I can actually achieve with the various battery packs they will offer. For whatever battery pack size you decide upon, the weight of the vehicle, how flat or hilly your route is, how heavy you are on the accelerator — these will impact your Aptera’s range in the same way they affect an ICE vehicle’s MPG.

[bruce-mengler]

I may be incorrect. I calculated the 25kW pack weighs 220lbs (100KG) & 100kW weighs 880lbs.
This was just for the batter cells & did not include any container or any interconnection wiring

[joshua-rosen]

The prototypes are all 400 mile versions, they haven’t built anything bigger or smaller yet so there is no data on true ranges of the other variants. The additional weight of the 60KWh pack and especially for the 100KWh pack has to have an effect on efficiency and certainly on handling. I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for the 100KWh variant, that’s at least 500lbs heavier than the 40KWh version, they will have to modify the suspension to handle that.

The range numbers right now are just estimates, until they do actual range tests they won’t have real numbers. For now I have the 600 mile version reserved, I’ll make my final determination when they have real numbers.

When actual range numbers are available I’d calculate the usable range as (.8 * EPA range) -40 and that’s on a good day, i.e. 70F and no rain. The .8 assumes that you charge to no more than 90% and that there is 10% battery degradation. I have a two year old Model 3, it’s current range is 280 miles vs 310 when new, lithium batteries degrade over time so you should take that into account. The -40 is the amount of range you would like to have left when you reach your destination, you don’t want any doubt about being able to get home. For the 600 mile version that would equate 440 miles of real range on a nice day and you drive with a light foot, if you are doing 75 or 80 it will be less. If it’s raining that could be 15-20% less and if you need heat, and they use a resistance heater, it will be 40% less. If they use a heat pump the hit from heat will be less than it is for resistance heat but I don’t have a number for that, my Model 3 has a resistance heater and it’s awful.

I’m hoping that the 600 mile version stays at that range when they get to production, that’s a magic number for me. I don’t commute, I just do long day trips. A car with > 400 miles of range will cover virtually all of my day trips without needing to charge. Not needing to charge is a game changer, it means that your itinerary can be flexible. With the Tesla I can go anywhere because the Supercharger network has a pretty good footprint and it’s absolutely reliable. However I have to plan my trips with ABRP and I can’t deviate from the plan. Usually that’s not a problem but last Saturday it was. We went to North Conway NH in the White Mountains, we wanted to double back to a place that looked interesting but I didn’t feel I could because of range limitations. In a couple of weeks that particular trip would have been easier because they are building a new Supercharger in North Conway which should be up and running in a week or two, but that option wasn’t available last Saturday. The Aptera is using CCS which is at least two years behind Tesla in terms of it’s footprint and even more importantly the CCS network is unreliable. While I’ve never seen a Supercharger with less than 8 chargers all of the CCS locations that I’ve seen only have one charger. Chargers break, even Superchargers, but in Tesla’s case there is quadruple redundancy (V2 chargers share cabinets so one broken cabinet will bring down two chargers, but that leaves 6 good ones). If a CCS charger breaks you’ll be SOL. The Aptera, and only the Aptera, gets around this problem by having so much range that DC charging won’t be necessary or in the rare cases that it is necessary you’ll have enough range that you can give yourself multiple charging options.

[don-rasky]

I would like to know what the range reduction might be for an Aptera at 500 lbs rated capacity at highway speeds of 60 to 80 mph on relatively level to mountainous roads. While traffic jams slow things down during a commute, long stretches at 70 to 80 mph are routine where I live. Country roads in my region are below 60 mph but can require climbing several thousand feet in elevation. Not sure really whether to order a 400 or 600 mile range Aptera with front or all wheel drive. I am also recalling that any smallish vehicles moving in the 55 to 60 mph range do not fare well on the interstate, even in the slow lane. I’m thinking all wheel drive and the ability to zip away from the usual rude dump trucks and semis in the slow lanes might be a much needed advantage even if it costs me range.

[curtis-cibinel]

Range definitely drops with speed but since the vehicle is light and very aerodynamic it isnt as bad as most. From these physics calculations the Aptera basically achieves similar functional range at all speeds with the base model to the model 3 using a battery of less than half the size.

Unlike range with stop city driving the calculation is very much basic physics calculations. The exact usable battery size, frontal area, weight and rolling drag are estimates but these numbers should give a general idea of how speed impacts range. I also included calculations for the model 3 and base 250 mile Aptera so you can see the the general idea. Based on these calculations the base Aptera and model 3 should have nearly identical degredation (note: exact usable battery might be off by 5-10% – this is about trending with speed not absolute values).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Tuu7avKH2dS_JPk7aiP2av09a1f1WE0OvvNH6fdHpiQ/edit#gid=0

[steve-lee]

Curtis,

Could I use your google spreadsheet in a youtube video? How would you like me to credit you?

[curtis-cibinel]

Go nuts obviously you know my name. Please link it in description. Please note some details like frontal area and weight may not be accurate (likely +- 10%)

[Unknown Member]

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[Unknown Member]

This content has been hidden as the member is suspended.

[BigSky]

Curtis,

Thanks for the data! Very helpful. I went with the 60 KWh battery and FWD (may switch to AWD if I understand the range tradeoff). My thinking here was twofold. First, this may be the EV that I can truly travel long distance without sitting around waiting for charging. Second, I was thinking that I’d much rather manage the battery in the 20-80% range so I’m thinking 600 miles is really 480 at 80% and leaving me room for degradation. Is that crazy?

[kerbe2705]

You should also consider the range reduction caused by cold or inclement weather. Aptera has estimated that AWD will reduce range by about 10% – so 600 miles would be 540 with 80% at 432. If the winter reduction is 20%, you’re at 345 – if it’s 30%, you’re at 302.

The closest DC charging station in the direction I’m most likely to travel is 297 miles from my home – so you can see why I selected the 600 mile Aptera. Crazy? Crazy like a FOX!

[richard-palmisano]

I opted for the 400 mile range battery for the following reasons:

– This will be a daily commuter, with an average round trip of 60 miles. (60mi x 5 = 300 mi).

– I live in “The Sunshine State” Florida. I expect at min 10-20 mi of solar charging daily to suppement range (Full Solar Package Option).

– The pack is smaller, less wieght, so my thoughts are best power to wieght ratio (tri motor configuration for me).

All said…we really don’t know what the final product will achieve, but if they can get close to their stated goals of efficiency and price point, then all is well.

[Stuppie]

This is only a rough estimate adjusted with various factors.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/140dSlIAp1O3uRkPcBZs-fhZ8c4Au1h4i/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=108252208261256232701&rtpof=true&sd=true

[curtis-cibinel]

Just a reminder that this sheet (i’m the original author) is based on estimated values for many details and does not account for auxiliary power usage (infotainment, heating etc). Frontal area, rolling resistance, battery size, powertrain efficiency and weight are all unofficial estimates.

Europe might need substantial changes to narrow (comply with regional rules) for European roads which could end up being a very different vehicle (ie less battery, worse aerodynamics, narrower, no center console)

[John Higgison]

I’m wondering how much the resistave heating will take from range? Sine the car is so efficient it needs a battery 1/4 the size.. makes sense and I think they said they can maintain hwy speeds with 1500 watts… if that is that case then what happens if you have to have the heater on in winter and it’s drawing a load of watts too? I imagine it’d be a minimum of 700 watts to keep the inside of the car warm, basically a hair dryer on medium. Will that kill the range by a sizable mount since its a small battery?

[OZ.]

Without regard to the exact method that will be used (Seat/Fan/Whatever), the thick composite body should offer excellent insulative properties, when a temperature is achieved, by whatever means, much less energy should be required to maintain it.

• This reply was modified 2 years, 1 month ago by  OZ (It's OZ, Just OZ).
• This reply was modified 1 year, 8 months ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.