Battery pack upgrade

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Battery pack upgrade

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Battery pack upgrade

  • Battery pack upgrade

     Curtis Cibinel updated 1 month, 2 weeks ago 65 Members · 176 Posts
  • Vernon Sinnott

    Member
    July 6, 2022 at 10:17 am

    My preorder includes the 400 mile range. It would be amazing if the 600 & 1000 mile range batteries could be swapped in like in the City One EV. https://acm.city/home/ My preorder includes the 400 mile range. It would be amazing if the 600 & 1000 mile range batteries could be swapped in like in the City One EV. https://acm.city/home/ What do you think?

    • Jonah Jorgenson

      Member
      July 22, 2022 at 8:45 am

      So….Three ID from the same person?? (Updates to the same message)

  • Markus Schmid

    Member
    July 6, 2022 at 3:09 pm

    The batteries won’t be swappable. They also would be a wee bit heavier to haul around than the four 2.5 kWh babies of the City One EV that already weigh more than 10 kg each.

  • Jeffrey Parker

    Member
    July 6, 2022 at 3:24 pm

    Having modules of batteries that are at different voltages is no good for the health of the batteries. Battery modules are built with individual cells that are tested and verified to be within a small voltage tolerance. When there is a large voltage difference between modules/cells charging and discharging is limited to the highest and lowest voltage module/cell. And battery balancing can only do so much.

    It’s best to have the module/s start, maintain, and end its life at a state of equilibrium.

  • Curtis Cibinel

    Member
    July 6, 2022 at 3:32 pm

    Swapping anything less than the entire battery isn’t practical. The Chinese have battery swap stations and its a viable concept but the vehicle needs to be specifically engineered and have swap stations costing millions need to be build to work. These aren’t Duracell batteries.

    • Markus Schmid

      Member
      July 6, 2022 at 4:01 pm

      Facing the tightening o raw materials for batteries and therefore of course battery supply, even NIO’s battery swap concept will become unpalatable before it even starts to fly. Under such constraints producing more batteries than EVs is a bad idea. Leave alone the infrastructure of not only the swap stations but also the storage of the swap batteries and transporting swap batteries between swap stations (think of shopping carts in a shopping mall, just much bigger).

    • Fanfare 100

      Member
      July 6, 2022 at 5:24 pm

      It would be easy to include a power conditioner which would prefer the fuller battery until it reaches the charge of the emptier one before switching them to togetherness mode. And that way you will always be balanced. For an electric engineer, that would be a very easy circuit that would not even require computer logic.

  • John Voules

    Member
    July 6, 2022 at 3:33 pm

    Swappable batteries will be passé…battery tech is on a continuous growth span. No one will want to go through the trouble. Maybe for space travel if I am in a cryogenic state. 😇

  • kerbe2705

    Member
    July 6, 2022 at 3:58 pm

    @Vernon SINNOTT Aptera’s batteries are buried inside the vehicle, above the radiant-cooling belly pan – to make the battery swappable you’d need to dismantle multiple systems. In most other EVs the battery pack resides under the floor of the vehicle and is accessible from the outside.

    Plus the cost: The 400 costs $3900 more than the 250, the 600 $8700 more and the 1000 $19000 more. Using those figures, the 250 probably costs $2438 (62.5% of $3900) so you’d be buying extra battery packs for swapping at $6338, $11,138 or $21,348. In addition, battery packs are SERIOUSLY heavy…

  • Vernon Sinnott

    Member
    July 6, 2022 at 4:06 pm

    I knew about the additional costs for the 600 mile range & 1000 mile range. I didn’t consider the weight but I am a senior and my condo has underground parking. It would be a nice option to have an additional compatible battery pack that could be plugged in after charging on 110 voltage in my condo apartment.

  • Lane Costilow

    Member
    July 6, 2022 at 7:23 pm

    My worry relates to the battery pack size also. If climate change has a serious effect on our country’s electrical grid, I want to know that I can go as far as possible on all the Deming NM sunshine I can absorb, or feed my house and devices if necessary. I can afford models of all ranges, but I don’t want to stress my finances when the cost gets to $45,000. If I can’t upgrade, I would have to start out buying the long-distance battery pack.

  • Sam Adams

    Member
    July 7, 2022 at 6:39 am

    Adding to a 250, 400, or 600 to make 1000 could be possible in the future according to the FAQs.

    • Jeffrey Parker

      Member
      July 7, 2022 at 7:31 am

      From FAQ

      Can I upgrade my battery pack at a later date?

      You can upgrade your battery pack any time prior to delivery once logged into your http://www.aptera.us account and upon confirmation of the final configuration of your Aptera. However, currently, we are not planning to have the battery upgradable in segments. If you want a bigger pack you would have to replace the whole battery pack. This could be an option in the future! Our goal is to build this vehicle in a very modular fashion to keep the cost low and to hopefully help us scale really quickly.

      Aptera

  • Sam Adams

    Member
    July 7, 2022 at 8:49 am

    Check the FAQs, it may be in the future.

    • John Voules

      Member
      July 7, 2022 at 9:02 am

      Personally I wouldn’t bet on it. Once this vehicle s fully developed, APTARA would need to put there focus on a 4-5 passenger vehicle. You truly can’t be all things to all people. We are throwing questions and suggestions like we are ordering at a restaurant. I did see the post that it might be in the future…if it is, it will be an expensive proposition.

  • Fiona McLean

    Member
    July 21, 2022 at 1:43 pm

    If one orders a 400 mile range Aptera, can an extra battery be added at a future date for additional range?

    • Jonah Jorgenson

      Member
      July 22, 2022 at 8:51 am

      No. As mentioned in Ray’s post there would be significant suspension changes. Additionally, battery packs have different control/charging electronics which would have to be accommodated. Possible other changes as well

      • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by  Jonah Jorgenson. Reason: correct spelling
  • Ray Holan

    Moderator
    July 21, 2022 at 1:54 pm

    Hello, Fiona. Hard to get a definitive answer on this question, especially prior to final production design. Informed opinion (and I emphasize it is opinion, not fact) is that bumping up your 400 mile range Aptera battery pack to 600 mile or above would not be possible. One reason is that there are suspension changes required to accommodate the added weight of the 600 and 1,000 mile packs. Taking the 250 mile pack to 400 mile pack size MIGHT be more possible, but is not assured. Not quite as simple as adding AA batteries to a flashlight;)

  • Jeffrey Parker

    Member
    July 21, 2022 at 1:57 pm

    Aptera.us/faq

    Can I upgrade my battery pack at a later date?

    At this time, we are not planning to have the battery upgradable in segments. Our goal is to build this vehicle modularly to keep the cost low and hopefully help us scale quickly. This could be a possibility in the future!

    You may choose to upgrade your battery through the Aptera dashboard prior to the delivery and purchase time once signed into your account.

    Also, adding a new battery pack to a degraded group will degrade the new pack and old pack at an accelerated rate due to voltage/capacity differences. You’d be better off replacing the small/old pack with a newer pack.

    • Harry Parker

      Moderator
      July 22, 2022 at 9:30 am

      What you wrote about mixing old and new batteries makes perfect sense. This is never a good idea, whether we are talking about EVs or flashlights.

  • Fiona McLean

    Member
    July 21, 2022 at 2:01 pm

    It’s too bad it’s not “plug and play”. It would be so efficient to have one suspension (the highest rated) and the ability to add batteries as one’s needs changed.

    • Riley …

      Member
      July 21, 2022 at 2:53 pm

      The problem with having the suspension tuned for the heavier 100kwh battery pack would make the lighter cars have a harsher ride and potentially less safe handling. If I wanted to upgrade to a larger battery 5-10 years from now I would hope that the battery technology has improved enough to fit a 60kwh into the available space/weight of the 40kwh.

      • John Voules

        Member
        July 22, 2022 at 5:55 am

        Riley, 5-10 years from now I would think battery packs will be lighter and denser. You will more than likely be able to get more miles from the same size pack.

  • Curtis Cibinel

    Member
    July 21, 2022 at 2:12 pm

    Making batteries truely module is impractical. This would require balancing the cells and a practical way to put hundreds of pounds of batteries into the vehicle. As @ray said its not a flashlight

  • Sam Adams

    Member
    July 22, 2022 at 4:50 pm

    Check out the battery in the NIO ET7 with energy density of 360 Wh/kg. I can’t wait for delivery of my Aptera but this thing even has battery swap stations where it’s done while you wait in less than 5 minutes.

    • Dennis Swaney

      Member
      July 22, 2022 at 9:30 pm

      For the price of one of them, you can buy at least TWO Apteras! Plus the NIO is made in Red China while the Aptera will supposedly be made in these United States.

  • V Pilot

    Member
    July 26, 2022 at 10:34 am

    Let’s not forget the power distribution unit will be an integral part of the battery pack as stated in the battery update video. They may be designed to work with the specific pack sizes produced. There is also the battery management systems to take into account, which may also be pack size specific

  • Frank Brants

    Member
    August 16, 2022 at 8:45 am

    Can anybody confirm whether or not the Aptera battery pack with be upgradable?

    There’s a “new battery chemistry that will change everything!!” announcement seemingly every day now, as there are a LOT of people working on the problem, but this one (Graphene (derived from natural gas) Aluminum Ion) looks extremely promising. They’re still a few years out until mass global production begins:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxhjHSJ_55c

    Franko

  • Jeffrey Parker

    Member
    August 16, 2022 at 8:52 am

    Asked and answered frequently, see FAQ

    Can I upgrade my battery pack at a later date?

    At this time, we are not planning to have the battery upgradable in segments. Our goal is to build this vehicle modularly to keep the cost low and hopefully help us scale quickly. This could be a possibility in the future!

    You may choose to upgrade your battery through the Aptera dashboard prior to the delivery and purchase time once signed into your account.

    Now it’s unknown if Aptera plans to have a swappable battery pack when newer/better chemistries come available.

    • Frank Brants

      Member
      August 16, 2022 at 9:02 am

      Thanks Jeffrey, hopefully this pushes them in the “yes, we will have upgradable battery packs” direction.

      Franko

    • Frank Brants

      Member
      August 16, 2022 at 9:17 am

      I believe they’re actually referring to “upgrading a 600 mile vehicle to a 1,000 mile vehicle” in that FAQ, but I believe this FAQ addresses the question:

      “How often should I expect to replace the battery pack?

      Many cells can fail in our pack design before things need to be replaced, and if replacement is needed, you would only need to replace the pack itself. We expect to offer a 10-year warranty on the high-voltage battery pack. The replacement costs will vary, but they should be far less than any other EV, as our packs are smaller for a given range.

      We will have exact answers regarding our battery warranty and repair/replacement cost and plan as we get closer to production time.”

      So, the pack IS replaceable, so hopefully they will be able to build a replacement pack when newer chemistries become available that offer a significant advantage over the old chemistry.

  • Joshua Rosen

    Member
    August 16, 2022 at 10:24 am

    It doesn’t matter if future batteries are better than the batteries in your car the only thing that matters is if your car’s battery is good enough for your needs. Just choose the battery size that fits your requirements or your projected requirements. Batteries are going to get better in the future but so will charging infrastructure. Five years from now nobody is going to be worrying about range, you’ll be able to go anywhere even with a 200 mile battery. Aptera is offering 400, 600 and 1000 mile batteries, the 400 is good enough to go most places even with today’s charging infrastructure. The 600 mile will go all day without having to fast charge at all. That’s as good as it ever needs to be.

    Today’s batteries are good for at least a couple of hundred thousand miles, once again that’s as good as they need to be. Future batteries will be good for a million miles, that’s not really any better because it would take you about 80 years to drive a million miles.

    Future batteries will charge faster than current batteries but that’s only useful if the car is designed to charge faster. The Aptera is a 350V system and it relies on skin cooling to dump heat, that limits the charging speeds. Just because the individual cells can charge faster doesn’t mean that the system is capable of charging faster.

    Future batteries will be safer. That’s great but today’s EVs are only 10% as likely to catch on fire as an ICEV. Do you worry about gasoline fires? No, nobody does. If gasoline is safe enough then NMC batteries, which are 10X as safe as gasoline, aren’t a reason to worry either.

    • Curtis Cibinel

      Member
      August 16, 2022 at 10:47 am

      A 400 mile aptera will likely last 25 years / 400,000+ miles if 2170 pack degradation is similar to tesla. The LFP based pack in collaboration with the Taiwanese company could potentially last 3-6x as long (aka way longer than is practical). Either way the battery is just not a big bottleneck and the odds that other failures or a crash in that time kill the vehicle is quite high.

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