Battery size/range selection (2)

[Greek]

Mateusz Mysiak, there is a strong chance by the time the APTERA is available for Europe that you may not receive it any earlier than the 600 mile version. Either way, you will have plenty of opportunity to make your decision by the time APTERA contacts you. When they do they will also give you an opportunity to make your decision.

[leo-shapiro]

I am jumping around, but I think 250 miles is ideal. Either I replace my current car with a hybrid car, or I just keep it and buy the 250-mile version. Why try to force a vehicle like this to do work its technology and infrastructure isn’t suited for? ICE vehicles can be used whenever an EV is either unsuitable or unavailable. At least then if I have to waste a week trying to fix it, I would still be able to commute by car.

[scott-ullerich]

Assuming the 400 mile estimate is accurate, if I’m driving at night I can go 400 miles, but during the day in full sun I’ll be able to drive 440 miles?

[raymond-green]

My understanding is solar charging will take place even while driving so, yes, under a very specific set of variables. Of course mileage for both scenarios can be significantly more or less depending on temperature, speed, driving style, how cloudy the sky is, etc..

[OZ.]

If you drive slowly enough from sunup to sundown and avoid shadowy portions on your drive, that could theoretically work.

[joshua-rosen]

400 miles is the 0-100% range, it’s not the realistic range. Charging an NMC battery to 100% degrades the battery as does discharging it to 0%. Generally you want to charge to 90% for a roadtrip and then top off at Superchargers if you need more range. You also don’t want to run the battery down to 0%, that’s going to leave you at the side of the road and unlike with gasoline AAA probably can’t bring you a can of gas (I say probably because in a couple of places in the country they do carry chargers). So right off the bat you should think of the 400 mile battery as a 320 mile battery to account for 10% margins on the top and bottom ends. The next thing to take into account is degradation, you’ll see quick degradation in the first year and then much slower after that. My 2019 Tesla with 27K miles on it has a max range of 280 miles, about 10% less than when it was new which makes my 90% range 250 miles. The next thing to take into account is the weather, if it’s raining the efficiency will drop. If it’s cold and you need the heater the range will drop by 40%. If you want to drive at 75 not 55 that will decrease your range significantly. Finally the 40 miles of solar a day, they say up to 40 miles a day, by that they mean 40 miles a day in San Diego in July. If you don’t live some place as sunny as San Diego it’s not 40 miles a day, if it’s winter when the days are shorter and the sun is low in the sky it’s not 40 miles anywhere.

The good news is that they are using the NACS connector and assuming they get an agreement with Tesla the Aptera will have access to the Supercharger network. Even with my 250 miles of range I’ve had zero problems going anywhere, there are lot’s of Supercharger sites and they are completely reliable. I do make it a point to plan all of my trips even though in a Tesla the car can do that for you. I schedule charge/bathroom stops along the way every couple of hours, the usual stop is about 15 minutes which is enough to add at least 100 miles of range and to go to the bathroom. Tesla’s can plan the stops for you, the Aptera won’t be able to do that until they add navigation (they haven’t mentioned nav and for some strange reason nobody has thought to ask them). In the Aptera you’ll have to use A Better Route Planner to plan your stops which is fine, I use it all the time.

[john-malcom]

Best discussion of real range and charging on the forum to date. Hope all forum members read and understand this post, especially those without EV driving experience to understand real world EV mileage. Assume the comes from your experience with your Tesla Model 3.

[john-malcom]

👍 All should note this post when considering the battery size/range to reserve.

[niki-moyer]

thanks for the great explanation. I had ordered the 60o mile, but am now thinking I should get the 1000-mile battery to get me from Silicon Valley to Los Angeles to visit my kids in college, maybe a trip every couple of months so the 600-mile battery will be a little short. i forgot where to find the timeline of which models will be produced. If I change to the 1000-mile battery, if I recall correctly, I will get delivery sooner the 600-mile battery? What are the pros and cons of a 1000-mile battery, particularly from the extra battery weight?

[bruce-mengler]

Below are my guessimates for the various battery sizes based on the assumption of 7.33 lbs/kW

0250 mile battery = 183 lbs

0400 mile battery = 293 lbs

0600 mile battery = 440 lbs

1000 mile battery = 733 lbs

IIRC, the deployment order for the batteries is 400, 250, 600, & lastly 1000

• This reply was modified 4 months, 3 weeks ago by  BRUCE MENGLER. Reason: fixed typo

[curtis-cibinel]

That would be absurdly good battery pack weight efficiency. Just the cells I calculate as more than that and the structure of the modules, interconnects, and hardware will bring the weights way up. In my calculations I had 25% overhead for the structure for the 250 mile and as little as 12% for the 1000 to make the numbers work but honestly I would be surprised to see the overhead as less than 30% above that of the battery cells (this would already be ahead of anyone else in the industry).

For comparison the 54 kwh pack in the original 2017 model 3 weighted 1060lb.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Tuu7avKH2dS_JPk7aiP2av09a1f1WE0OvvNH6fdHpiQ/edit#gid=1285203539

• This reply was modified 4 months, 3 weeks ago by  Curtis Cibinel.

[wingsounds13]

Are you really going to make that trip non-stop? I know that I couldn’t. While I selected the 600 mile option, I would have to take at least two bio breaks over the range of that pack. Make those two short charging stops as I discharge myself and that gives me almost all the range that I can reasonably make in one day anyway – maybe add one more stop to fill out the day’s drive.

The order of delivery has been planned as 400, 250, 600 then 1000 for as long as I have been aware. I say take the 600 mile option. 🙂

[kerbe2705]

@Scott Ullerich In short, no. If parked in full, bright sun for 12 hours, Aptera’s full solar package has the ability to store up to 4kW of electricity. The panels aren’t capable of producing enough current to actually propel the vehicle directly and, in order to travel 400 miles, you’d have to be driving on a perfectly flat, perfectly dry, perfectly smooth surface with no wind at a speed of probably less than 60 mph, starting with the battery at 100% state-of-charge. As others have said, 400 miles of range is theoretically possible but highly improbable in the real world.

So, if you could drive for 12 hours in perfect solar conditions you could, potentially, add up to 40 “perfect world” miles of range to the vehicle. It is, however, unlikely.

[raymond-green]

I remember reading somebody theorizing that it may be possible to propel the Aptera from just the power generated by the solar panels. It would be at a crawl and probably couldn’t handle an incline or speedbump, but would be fun to try.

[john-malcom]

👍 Another post with more realistic thoughts on battery size/range. Hopefully all reservationists will thoroughly analyze their use cases and pick the right range. As the charging infrastructure is built out (Tesla and others) a shorter ranges becomes less of a rislk and more like looking for a gas station for an ICE vehicle. The great advantage of a vehicle as efficient as the Aptera

[ray-holan]

I read a well-researched article in the Washington Post today about ballooning battery sizes in current and upcoming EV’s from major manufacturers.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-solutions/2023/07/07/ev-range-anxiety-battery-myth/

It reminded me about why I took a pass on the LE Aptera (circa 400 mile range battery).

My wife and I are a two car household — mine a BMW i3 soon to be replaced by my Aptera and hers a trusty 2017 Subaru. Close to 99% of my trips can be done by the i3 with 130 mile range, even in Cleveland, Ohio winters. Do I really need the added expense, environmental cost, and weight penalty of the 40 kwH pack of the LE? In my case, the answer is no. Thus my order is for the 250 mile version. Yes, I’m ready for a long wait.

That said, I don’t begrudge anyone opting for the 400, 600, or even the 1,000 Aptera model if that fits your use case. The article raises the question of a city dweller hauling around much more battery weight and cost ($$ and environmental) for the 1% of their trips where a 300+ mile range is needed. Worth a think…I think.

[bruce-mengler]

According to what I found online 2170 cells have an energy density of 300 WATTS/KG or 7.33 lbs per 1kW

If I did the math correctly, then the 250 mile battery pack weighs about 183 lbs & 400 pack weights about 293 lbs; or about 110 pounds heavier.

I am willing to incur the minimal performance penalty for the additional 150 miles in range.

HTH & YMMV.

• This reply was modified 4 months, 3 weeks ago by  BRUCE MENGLER. Reason: fixed TYPO & THANKS for the correction

[CGSMT]

The Launch edition battery is essentially the same size as the BMW i3.

[ray-holan]

Yes, almost. The i3 battery is 33 kwH I believe. 94 amp hrs.

[jens-klaus]

I did not go with the launch edition either but with the 600 mile range version.

One reason is that I intend to travel a lot long distance with the vehicle, but that’s not the main reason. That’s battery life.

A lithium battery will live a lot longer if it is used somewhere between 40% charge and 70% charge most of the time. Every charge to 90 or even 100% takes disproportionately more life away from the battery as do discharges below 20%.
Fast charging also cuts battery life more than slow charging, which means mostly charging at home will again extend battery life.

The 600 mile version gives me a 180 mile range between charges if I want to stay within those parameters. While home that will be 99% of daily use and even when traveling probably 80%.

The traveling part might be of a lot less interest for most (i.e. most people won’t travel long distance several months a year), but the battery life part concerns everybody.

• This reply was modified 4 months, 3 weeks ago by  Jens Klaus.

[john-trotter]

These discussions of range-vs-current-use often seem to forget the “current” aspect. Apteras should last a long time, longer than one’s current driving pattern and the country’s current charging infrastructure. I opted for the 400mile option because it’s more than current use, but flexible if situations change. That said, 250 miles would probably have been adequate, considering current driving and improved public charging. However, racking my brain, I can not find any current or future use that makes 600 or 1,000 miles make sense. (Current road trips of several thousand miles are in a Model Y(P) with under 300 miles range and never a real problem.)

[JRWiley]

So I would assume a road trip of several thousand miles would probably necessitate topping up the battery at least once daily with FC. How much degradation would the battery suffer? I think I want to go with the 400kw battery but am concerned about how much I would degrade my battery on road trips going 5-6 hundred miles a day for several days, stopping once each day for a FC to 80%. Any thoughts on this?

[bruce-mengler]

I bought my 2018 Chevy Volt in December 2017. It gets plugged in nightly to FULLY recharge since it has no ability to stop charging at 80%. Realize that this is AC “slow” recharging & NOT DC Fast charging. During the warm summer months, the car gets charged to 55 miles of range just as it did when it was brand new. During the cooler months it charges to around 52 miles of range. This has been the consistent pattern over the 5.5 years I’ve owned it.

Below is purely as an arbitrary example. Let’s assume a 2170 cell degrades 0.001% after being DCFC to 100% FULL. This means that after 1000 DCFC sessions, that the battery will lose 1% of its initial capacity. An Aptera with a 40 kWh battery will lose about 4 miles of range after 1000 DCFC sessions. If an Aptera owner takes 6 long road trips a year & recharges to 100% FULL once a day while traveling, it will be YEARS before there will be a measurable decline in the Aptera’s range. The 2170 degradation from charging past 80% is real. The 2170 cells don’t fall off a cliff & stop working due to DCFC. The owner will see the maximum range will slowly decline when using DCFC past 80%, but this is measured in months or years.

[JRWiley]

Bruce – this is so helpful to me. Thank you very much. I’m going to stay with the 400kw battery. I’m guessing I might have to DCFC to 100% a dozen times a year at the most. The rest of the time I will level 1 charge to 80% at home. Sounds like I shouldn’t worry about degradation.

[Mike-Mars]

Look at the green line (representing DCFC) in figure 8 of this article

https://www.geotab.com/blog/ev-battery-health/#heading-17

[JRWiley]

This article was very informative. Thanks, Mike.

[Mike-Mars]

> Let’s assume a 2170 cell degrades 0.001% after being DCFC to 100% FULL.

Did some number crunching on the data in the article. Keep in mind that my figures here are very approximate – it’s probably about 0.1% degradation when charging to 80% (not 100%) via DCFC, versus 0.05% via level 2 charging, in a hot climate. In a colder climate, the loss is about 1/3 of that. There are lots of other factors, battery chemistry, battery cooling, reserve margins, etc.

• This reply was modified 4 months, 3 weeks ago by  Michael Marsden.
• This reply was modified 4 months, 3 weeks ago by  Michael Marsden.
• This reply was modified 4 months, 3 weeks ago by  Michael Marsden.

[Shawgrin]

Considering how far my wife and I drive before taking a break or change drivers is about 2 to 3 hours and the 250 mile range works very well for us. 70 miles an hour after 3 hours is only 210 miles. Having such a small battery that charges so quickly is great for most trips we take. Our most common trips is 408 miles, when we go and visit our son and family.

[BigSky]

At 70mph, I am not sure you will actually get 210 miles out of a 25KWH battery. On your specification of use, 40 is probably better. Let’s see what the real range turns out to be, but I would carefully look into the results for highway speeds before locking in on that battery size. You may find yourself needing to charge during those trips.

[john-malcom]

👍

[Mike-Mars]

If the “charge at 20%, up to 80%” rule (which is recommended for DC fast charging) is followed, each leg would be around 150 miles, and that’s ignoring the range penalty of going at 70 (at least 15% I guess, compared to 60? Not sure of the numbers).

[ray-holan]

For sure, speed will affect range even though Aptera is much more aerodynamic than most. I consistently drive my old school BMW i3 at a steady 60 mph on interstates. Perhaps 80% of my driving is of this type. I show efficiency of 5.2 miles / 1kWh on the dash computer display. It will be interesting to get real-world data for different types and speeds of driving once the Aptera is rolling out of Carlsbad. Computer simulations only go so far.

One more fascinating factoid: the i3 estimates 165 miles of range when I’m noodling along at 40 mph vs. the stated 125 mile range of the EPA rating for my 2018 model. Yep, your mileage will vary;)

[john-malcom]

Many other factors affect range. Some in addition to speed are terrain, altitude, temperature, vehicle load, tire pressure, driving technique, weather conditions/climate. And over time battery degradation. As stated, each driver’s experience will be different. Certainly not wise to select battery size based on engineering simulation estimates. It is not advisable to select battery size/range based only on battery estimated range per charge without actual performance testing data, at a minimum EPA cycle testing. Be wise, safe side by going up one batter size until the testing data is available, remember, you will probably own your Aptera for a long time. You will have plenty of time to change before contracting for purchase if necessary. You also want your Apteral to be competitive with the increasing mileage of other EVs over the years should you want to sell it.

Be wise look at the long game.

[Shawgrin]

Big, you are reading to much into Maximum ranges. My wife and I do not drive that far before taking a break. 180-210 miles is 3 or more hours of driving and raises the possibility of blood clots, the older we get and are still driving the chance of getting blood clots gets higher. The longer you drive with out a break takes more out of you . At age of 25 I could drive 24 hours straight with only fuel, food and potty stops. Now if we change drivers every 1.5-2 hours, we arrive at our destinations feeling more refreshed. We noticed this with long drives between northern and southern California. Makes vacations more fun for all.

Logically miles drive and battery size you realistically only need about 250miles of range to go or do nearly any trip in North America. Worst case scenario could be driving through areas with poor charging infrastructure.

• This reply was modified 4 months, 3 weeks ago by  Vernon Michael Gardner.

[ray-holan]

Then too, taking a break every hour or so is said to increase our alertness behind the wheel.