California energy and Aptera

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions California energy and Aptera

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions California energy and Aptera

  • California energy and Aptera

     Alain Chuzel updated 3 weeks ago 20 Members · 61 Posts
  • Barrie Whisenant

    Member
    September 5, 2022 at 5:19 am

    With the most recent insanity in California, Aptera has an unmatched window of opportunity. Given that the power grid can’t support the daily demand, much less the excess EV load expected to come from the ICE shutdown, SEV or Amish horsepower are likely to win out. I sure hope no one in Aptera is sitting on their hands.

    This looks like an opportunity that, if exploited, could launch an industry. Step it up wherever you can.

    I figure the 400 mile model should sell quickest, that’s just about enough miles to get out of California.

  • Alain Chuzel

    Member
    September 5, 2022 at 6:42 am

    Yes, folks who don’t want to be in California should get out. It’s the “love it or leave it thing”…..

    • Mark Salyzyn

      Member
      September 5, 2022 at 7:07 am

      I asked the question, “Do any of you expect to retire in California?”. They all just laughed and laughed and laughed…

      [Tl;Dr] Doesn’t matter if you love California or not, for the metropolitan areas and the desirable greenery nearby, the only ones that can stay inherited a generational home, bought a home 4 decades ago, will be paying rent until they die, or are 0.1%ers (or 0.01%ers in Palo Alto). In the near desert of Santa Clara we had a mobile home park, and all the residents were themselves 1%ers. So many people pushed out due to gentrification. My son managed to buy a townhome built on a superfund toxic waste site right next to a 5+5 lane highway for $1.3M, a decade later still owes north of a million and property value stagnated. He has access to the best schools in the area though.

      I did the math, I retired in Orlando overlooking a downtown lake/park with an exceptional 99 walkability index and am king of the castle. We tried, but there was no way we could stay unless we moved to the desert in the middle of nowhere.

      <sad trombone sound>

      • Alain Chuzel

        Member
        September 5, 2022 at 7:12 am

        Anecdotes. Ho hum….

        • Mark Salyzyn

          Member
          September 5, 2022 at 8:50 am

          People move because of Economics, Physical Environment and Political Environment (War). Love it or Leave it is a fly speck. Who is anecdotal?

          • Alain Chuzel

            Member
            September 5, 2022 at 10:12 am

            I find it funny that you took my “love it or leave it” comment literally.

            • Mark Salyzyn

              Member
              September 6, 2022 at 11:36 am

              @Alain Chuzel “I find it funny that you took my “love it or leave it” comment literally”

              Sensitive I guess I wanted to stay, but California is impossible to retire in with a modicum of standard of living. Love it and leave it 🙁

            • Alain Chuzel

              Member
              September 8, 2022 at 6:05 am

              “Sensitive I guess I wanted to stay,…” What?

              “…but California is impossible to retire in with a modicum of standard of living.” Wrong. There are folks doing it every day. Apparently you bought into a myth.

      • Paul Kirchner

        Member
        September 5, 2022 at 8:51 am

        Yes, antidotal. I can and will retire in California. And I’m doing that from a career as an artist.

        My daughter, born and raised in San Francisco was working a $10 an hour job at 24 hour fitness ten years ago. Now a manager at Google, house overlooking Sausalito harbor. BTW. She’s at Burning Man this weekend throwing it down Cali style.

        And historically California was always a near desert environment.

    • Dennis Swaney

      Member
      September 5, 2022 at 11:56 am

      I’m a Native Californian who in the 1970s saw the way it was going downhill and did not plan on going back there when I retired from the USAF. However, when the time came, my wife’s parents had passed on but mine were still alive so I reluctantly ended up back in the CPR. After my parents had passed I started the moving process, then COVID hit; finally I was able to get out in March of ’21.

      • Alain Chuzel

        Member
        September 8, 2022 at 6:03 pm

        Yet another anecdote. Ho hum….

        CPR(?) Really(?) Give me a break….

  • Patrick Liebknecht

    Member
    September 5, 2022 at 7:19 am

    Newsome says. Do not charge your electric cars in the summer.

    Lmao

    • Alain Chuzel

      Member
      September 5, 2022 at 7:32 am

      Sure he did….Don’t let the truth get in the way of your “myth telling” though….

    • Skully –

      Member
      September 8, 2022 at 8:36 am

      They asked people to minimize power usage in the afternoon/evening. Not the drastic overstatement you apparently heard. Preferred to wait until after 10 or so to charge them if you can instead of charging up as soon as you get home from work.

      It’s feasible.

      Also, they asked people to set the temp a little higher on their thermostat, but no one seems to think that means that hvac isn’t workable.

      • Alain Chuzel

        Member
        September 8, 2022 at 6:03 pm

        👍👍👍

  • Jeffrey Parker

    Member
    September 5, 2022 at 8:22 am

    Question: How did the electric grid handle the influx of everyone getting lights, refrigerators, tvs, and AC units?

    Answer:It grew to match demand, easy. It’ll happen again. This time though, I suspect it’ll consist of more sources than just coal and natural gas.

    • Dennis Swaney

      Member
      September 5, 2022 at 12:06 pm

      California has declared that only renewable energy sources will be allowed going forward. No coal, natural gas, hydroelectric, nuclear, etc.; only solar and windpower. It must have stuck in Newsom’s craw to allow a 5 year operation extension of the last nuclear power plant when it became evident that PG&E, SoCal Edison, SDG&E couldn’t provide enough power for the state without the plant. Of course there is also the problem of those companies aging and unmaintained infrastructure can’t handle the power right now. That is why they have resorted to “Public Safety Power Shutoffs” (PSPS).

      As for how the demand increase was handled in the last century, that is easy: it grew over 100 years. If in the 1920s or 30s, the government had mandated that electrical lights, appliances, TV, lifesaving medical equipment, A/C, etc. be instituted in a 25 year span, the same problem would have happened.

      • This reply was modified 4 weeks ago by  Dennis Swaney.
      • This reply was modified 4 weeks ago by  Dennis Swaney. Reason: Corrected typo at beginning of second sentence
      • Vernon Michael Gardner

        Member
        September 8, 2022 at 8:18 pm

        Diablo nuclear power plant has been reinstated

        • Dennis Swaney

          Member
          September 8, 2022 at 8:56 pm

          Yep, and I mentioned that in another post. Gavin has really ticked of a large number of his supporters by extending it 5 years.

  • Joshua Rosen

    Member
    September 5, 2022 at 9:14 am

    To put things in perspective. A Tesla Model 3/Y is equivalent to one window air conditioner, a Ford F150 is equivalent to two ACs and an Aptera to 1/2 of an AC. I.e. on average cars drive about 40 miles a day, that’s 10KWh for a Tesla 20KWh for a Ford and 4KWh for an Aptera. The difference between an EV and an AC is that the AC runs 24/7, an EV needs about one hour of charging per day which can happen at anytime. Charging can be scheduled at off peak times which helps level out demand which is good for the grid. Eventually I expect that utilities will be able to command individual EVs to charge when they have excess capacity and not charge when the grid is under stress. Every EV on the road today and every car in the future is Internet connected so this is just a matter of software.

    Even if we could switch to 100% EVs today the grid should be able to handle it as long as we use smart charging. But of course it can’t possibly happen that fast, it takes 20 years to completely transition the fleet, plenty of time to build more capacity and to standardize on protocols that allow utilities to control EV charging.

  • Barrie Whisenant

    Member
    September 5, 2022 at 10:02 am

    Joshua Rosen i think your math is skewed when it comes to 100٪ EVs. Transitioning All ICEs, literally millions, will overwhelm production. Did you miss the part where already there is a crisis without the proposed expansion?

    • Alain Chuzel

      Member
      September 5, 2022 at 10:14 am

      To be fair, you missed considerably more than Joshua Rosen did.

    • Joshua Rosen

      Member
      September 5, 2022 at 10:29 am

      I was only talking about the grid. We can’t possible transition to all EVs overnight, we don’t have the battery plants or materials. Demand is much lower at night when most people charge their cars because their TVs, ovens and dryers are off and their air conditioners aren’t working as hard because the air is cooler. If the grid can power your oven at 6PM then it can easily charge your car at 2AM. Also for places that have lot’s of solar, there is an excess of power mid day, EV batteries are a good place to store that excess. We will have smart grids eventually that will be able to take advantage of EVs to balance demand. Most cars spend 95% of the time parked and when they are home plugged in which means that there is a potential for utilities to do very fine demand management, i.e. control cars on an individual basis so that they can balance demand on streets not just in large regions. When you come home at night you plug in. On average you only need an hour of charging before you need the car in the morning, as long as you have enough energy when you get in your car in the morning you don’t care when you got it. What’s more any Internet based protocol would have two way communication which would make it possible for the algorithm to distinguish between cars that need a large charge and those that need a small charge, those that need a small charge can be staggered over the night or even over a period of days, those that need a large charge would be able to charge much longer.

      My point was that I don’t think we will need much more capacity then we already have now if we have smart charging. My other point was that it takes decades to transition the fleet to full electric, that’s plenty of time to get the software working and to build out capacity.

      One final thought. Renewables will require large amount of storage to be usable, the sun only shines during the day and the wind blows when it want’s to. EV batteries can provide a significant part of that storage. EVs already have everything they need to be part of a smart grid, they are connected to the Internet, charging can already be controlled over the Internet, today it’s just through the app but exactly the same mechanism could be used by utilities.

      • Alain Chuzel

        Member
        September 5, 2022 at 10:32 am

        👍👍

  • Barrie Whisenant

    Member
    September 5, 2022 at 12:07 pm

    Your answer implies control of the EV battery as a component of the grid for balance and supplementation. That is certainly a concept that hasn’t been explored very thoroughly. I suppose that could mean that in a day of high electric demand, your EV could discharge rather than charge on the grid. That sort of activity sounds plausible. I can’t say it would make me happy though.

    The point of my initial note was that during this moment of crisis, an SEV would be ideal as it brings less stress to an ALREADY overloaded, (else no need to restrict supply) electric grid. I urge the folks at Aptera to hurry whenever they get a chance.

  • Cameron Eisner

    Member
    September 5, 2022 at 12:36 pm

    <div>This YouTube channel has a really good video on the EV grid strain. He goes into a lot of the technical details and math. </div>https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7dfyG6FXsUU

    • Kevin Bradbury

      Member
      September 5, 2022 at 1:20 pm

      Well if you look at it that way….

      Now what are all the fear mongers going to talk about….🤔😜

      • Alain Chuzel

        Member
        September 5, 2022 at 1:50 pm

        I’m sure they’ll find something. Maybe the Dow falling or 401k balances falling or EVERYTHING else going “up up and away”….. (sarcasm)

    • Francis Giroux

      Member
      September 6, 2022 at 6:59 am

      The grid already has the capacity to supply all the power we need for electric cars. The problem is the power demand is not constant and neither is the supply from solar and wind. What the grid needs is batteries to produce the power when it can and distribute the power when its needed. Electric cars have batteries. They don’t have to be a burden on the grid. They can be a resource for the grid. What is needed if for the power companies to price their power so that EV owners will benefit, maybe even make money.

      The batteries are there in the cars and if they were just hooked to the grid when needed and allowed to transfer power in both directions when needed, we could solve the problem. We want EVs to charge when the grid has extra power supply and we want EVs to supply power to the grid when the power suppliers can’t keep up with demand. One way to get these both to happen is to price energy transfer so that the source is getting paid and the destination is getting charged, and the most important part, the price is dependent on the need.

      Example: At noon in California on a sunny day lots of solar electricity is being produced (more that needed) and if EVs are plugged into the grid, power could transfer to the batteries in the EVs at say 5 cents per kwh. The destination (EVs) pay the cheap rate. Then at 6PM when grid demand is super high and they need the power, they can draw from the EV batteries at a rate of 10 cents per kwh, and sell to demand customers at 15 cents per kwh. Then later on at 2AM when grid demand is low and nuclear power plants are producing at a constant rate and need some place to send the power, power can again transfer to the EV batteries at 5 cents per kwh. The rates for the power can adjust by scale dependent on how great the demand or excess supply is. As long as the EVs and the grid have the software and hardware to handle the transfers, both are supplied with what they need. And if pricing is right, the owners of the EVs will be compensated handsomely for the use of their battery.

      All this was explained by Tesla a couple years ago as they were figuring ways for Tesla owners to recoup the cost of their vehicles quicker. VTG (vehicle to grid) capability would have to be built into the cars and without cooperation with the grid suppliers it may not be worth the development cost for the hardware and software needed. I don’t know whether Tesla figured it out yet or gave up on the idea because of non-cooperation. But certainly it is possible scientifically, but maybe not politically.

  • Ron Glossin

    Member
    September 6, 2022 at 7:26 am

    Very toxic thread and I lived in California for 55 years. While I agree with a lot of it why do these people continue to rehash this stuff. Almost a turnoff for the Aptera. At the least I will avoid this thread.

    • Alain Chuzel

      Member
      September 6, 2022 at 7:52 am
      • John Voules

        Member
        September 6, 2022 at 8:18 am

        Envy and hate go hand in hand. Your news source has a lot to do with how you feel about someone or some place. I was in a hotel in Bulgaria in the mid 80s and the only tv programming available was an hour long loop of people being beaten on the streets of the US and images of JFK getting shot and anything else they could conjure as negative. Imagine watching that not knowing much about the US, brain washing in its simplest form. It also amazes me how we judge with out knowledge or experience.

        California in my opinion may be one of the best places to live in the world. It has something for everyone. The problem is that more people want to live there than may admit to. Because of its popularity things have become more expensive than the rest of the country. Supply and demand has made housing and just about everything else too expensive for most. Haters like to point out how many people and businesses have left the state, the reality is, most people want to live there but simply can’t afford it. As a Realtor, I often come upon clients moving from California to Chicago do to career. They go from 1 bedroom condo to 3 bedroom single family home and sometimes pocket some money to boot.

  • Barrie Whisenant

    Member
    September 6, 2022 at 9:48 am

    I can see the benefit to the grid from the batteries, but what is the benefit to the batteries? This is a loss of autonomy as well. Some of us aren’t comfortable with corporate decisions regulating personal preferences. In your calculations, have you considered the wear to the batteries and the energy inefficiencies of first rectifying and then inverting for grid compatibility? These components would be massive, if you make ALL vehicles EV.

    Again, SEV is an answer that doesn’t overburden. I like that answer. 1,000 mile battery for me.

    • Alain Chuzel

      Member
      September 6, 2022 at 10:26 am

      “Corporate decisions regulating personal preferences”(?) Give me a break.

      “Loss of autonomy”(?) Give me a break.

      Opt out of V.T.G. if it’s value proposition isn’t to your personal benefit. Big deal.

      With respect to V.T.G., where’s the “rectifying” coming into play?

      Why are the components “massive” if you make ALL vehicles EV?

      Just how “inefficient” to you think rectifying and inverting are?

    • Francis Giroux

      Member
      September 6, 2022 at 1:06 pm

      Barrie, yes in the grid tie EV system the battery owner would be compensated by buying cheap power during off peak times and selling it back at a profit at high peak times (all controlled by your computer programing). But you are right the EVs would have to have an inverter which Aptera has planned on including at 1500 watts. VTG (vehicle to grid) would benefit more with a higher capacity than that (not much extra cost or weight). And yes converting the power twice will lose 20% of the power but we are talking about power that is effectively wasted now. And yes, when you are purchasing and selling power to/from the grid there is that much more data they can collect on you. But unless you are off grid now, they are already able to collect data on your power purchase/use.

  • Russell Fauver

    Member
    September 6, 2022 at 11:25 am

    This thread is an interesting look into my personal decision making. When I see something spilled on the sidewalk I have a couple options, step over it and continue on with my day, or step in it where it can get splashed on me or maybe get stuck on my shoe then spend my time cleaning myself up while complaining about the mess. Today I choose to step over the spill. On another day I might choose to stop and roll in it like a dog rolls in mud right after he’s been given a bath 🙂 but today I’m stepping over.

  • Barrie Whisenant

    Member
    September 6, 2022 at 11:51 am

    Umm. You must rectify to put DC into batteries, and you must invert to put AC on the grid. They are not compatible otherwise. These operations are not 100٪ efficient. As to opting out, I hadn’t heard it was an option. I figured it would be legislated like so many other ADLs.

    • Francis Giroux

      Member
      September 6, 2022 at 1:18 pm

      Its not an option yet. Tesla only proposed it a couple years ago (when Cybertruck was introduced). They even ran numbers for a long range cybertruck and showed how the system could pay for the truck in something like 2-3 years. But unless someone (corporate or political) does the footwork to see if power companies and/or EV manufacturers are even agreeable to the plan, its a waste of time to engineer the equipment and program required. But then again, if California has peak and off peak electric rates and the ability to sell power to the grid at a good price at peak demand (unlike New York where I am) all you should need is a grid tie inverter to get started right now.

    • Alain Chuzel

      Member
      September 6, 2022 at 1:28 pm

      Umm. I know that “you must rectify to put DC into batteries” but within the context you stated it’s not involved.

      “These operations are not 100% efficient”. Umm, duh. But restating it doesn’t answer the question now does it?

      “Opting out” is always an option. (psst! unplug the car)

      ADLs(?)

      “Massive” components?

      Consider hitting reply within the comment you’re replying to. Be warned, however, it doesn’t always work….

  • Patrick Liebknecht

    Member
    September 7, 2022 at 12:53 pm

    Aptera isn’t in a position to capitalize on anything.

    Even if they started production right now at 100% capacity they would produce maybe 10,000 cars

    California has roughly 30 million registered cars and trucks. Do the math.

  • Skully –

    Member
    September 7, 2022 at 4:10 pm

    There’s enough hate between the states in other places online. I could do without it here.

    • Patrick Liebknecht

      Member
      September 7, 2022 at 10:13 pm

      Skully,

      unfortunately this is what happens on “Public” Boards, you get a handful of bullies who lambaste anyone that doesn’t share their mindset.

      Heaven forbid we have a difference of opinion.

      • Alain Chuzel

        Member
        September 8, 2022 at 5:51 am

        So much irony…..

        Thanks for putting in print.

        • Skully –

          Member
          September 8, 2022 at 8:33 am

          It’s even a conversation I’d be interested in, but not with someone who seems combative about the entire concept.

          FWIW, I’ve seen a fair amount of ink looking into it. I think it’s something that California is directly looking to assess and address, though the impact is relatively small, and thankfully flexible for timing which makes a big difference.

  • Glen Flint

    Member
    September 8, 2022 at 7:22 am
    • Alain Chuzel

      Member
      September 8, 2022 at 7:55 am

      Not sure I understand why you mean by “protection” but…

      A brief reading of the two articles you linked to suggest nothing unreasonable or unexpected happened so what’s your point?

      • Kevin Bradbury

        Member
        September 8, 2022 at 8:43 am

        Yeah @Alain Chuzel, you remember several posts ago on this thread when I asked what will they talk about and you said, “They’ll find something.” Well, they found something. That first one talks about an extreme event, the first in 6 years that inconvenieced some folks with 88 degrees instead of letting the whole system crash so everyone’s house got into the 90’s. The second is obvious click bait as you had to scroll through a million ads to read it one line at a time to find out it is much ado about nuffin.

      • Dennis Swaney

        Member
        September 8, 2022 at 11:34 am

        Alain, he probably means something like the “Public Safety Power Shutoffs” (PSPS) in California. After PG&E was convicted of their second felony for the deaths of 86 people due to the utility company’s failure to maintain their infrastructure (and ordered to repair an maintain it properly), they started doing PSPS operations. When it looks like their rickety failing infrastructure might cause more massive fires do to weather conditions, they just shut off the power for hours on end. Do they care about people who need the power to run life saving medical equipment, do they reimburse everyone for all the food that has to be thrown away due to no power? Nope, it would hurt their massive profits and payments to the officers and upper management (same reason they had slashed maintenance originally). I went through several of those PSPS but fortunately I was able to drive to the nearest area where there wasn’t a PSPS to eat and stay cool/warm. I also kept very little in the refrigerator and the freezer closed. Thank God I’m out of there now.

        • Alain Chuzel

          Member
          September 8, 2022 at 6:14 pm

          Great argument for why electric generation and distribution shouldn’t be in the hands of “for profit” entities. Also, I’m sure California’s glad your gone too. 😉

          • Dennis Swaney

            Member
            September 8, 2022 at 9:00 pm

            You’re probably right: one less believer in the U.S. Constitution to get in the way of their Dear and Glorious Leader and Party.

            • Alain Chuzel

              Member
              September 11, 2022 at 5:48 pm

              The irony of your express “belief” and reverence for a two century+ old document written by seriously flawed old men and subsequent invective of “Dear and Glorious Leader” is rich beyond, well, belief.

              Especially, by the way, in light of the following:

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFQyfe6NH7Yhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFQyfe6NH7Y

            • Kevin Bradbury

              Member
              September 12, 2022 at 5:23 pm

              Thanks @Alain Chuzel for posting that link, now I have to go wash my eyeballs.😖

              I recall seeing a movie that showed bad things happening to some other folks who worshipped another golden bovine.🤣

            • Alain Chuzel

              Member
              September 12, 2022 at 7:32 pm

              Sorry ‘bout the link….

              “Golden bovine” 🤣

  • Chris Hale

    Member
    September 8, 2022 at 3:12 pm

    How did this thread get from hoping Aptera can capitalize on the electricity demand in California to lambasting the living condition of California? Aptera is a solution that the general public needs to embrace. Just think that if the EV’s in California were Apteras instead of Teslas then the governor wouldn’t need to be asking anyone to hold off charging their vehicles because Apteras don’t need to be plugged in. In addition, you can buy two or three or four Apteras for the price of a Tesla being sold which are half as efficient as the Aptera. The general public needs to think about economizing energy rather than demanding more of it. There is speculation that the electricity grids across this nation can’t handle the influx of EV’s. If that is true Aptera then is a solution that more people need to be aware of especially the politicians. I think this was the intended message that Barrie was wanting to say. Go Barrie. Tax credits ought to be given to those who deliver the most efficient vehicles not to those luxury electric guzzlers out there.

    • Lane Costilow

      Member
      September 8, 2022 at 9:09 pm

      We all have political opinions and they all stink. Some bozos just can’t stop inserting extraneous crap into these discussions.

  • Leo Shapiro

    Member
    September 12, 2022 at 2:13 pm

    Adding my 2 cents to the discussion as a native Californian who left recently.

    Lots of people are leaving due to the fact many don’t have family money or got lucky with crypto, real estate, or stocks. Too much money is being distributed in an extremely skewed fashion. This destroys living standards for locals and has been for decades(AKA nothing really new to a native). Its just never been so bad the “losers” like me outnumbered the “dreamers” coming in.

    Yes California isn’t being particularly smart with their energy infrastructure. They never have been. Now they have so little wiggle room anymore really poor decisions will impact everyone reliant on the grid.

    I hope they figure out the smart decision isn’t always fund raising for more inefficient energy sources.

    Which is pretty good for aptera actually if California fails to manage their grid. Since this vehicle is the only one with practical off grid charging built in.

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