Door design and info

[993cc]

As a former Ottawa resident, I can relate. Most gas strut systems work in the cold initially, but when they begin to lose pressure, cold weather is when they will fail first.

I hope that the door design positions the struts so that they have good leverage to support the door. I also hope that the design specifies a fairly commonly available strut, so that they can be easily replaced when they fail.

As for sliding doors, I think the problem would be that the necessary tracks for the door would have a huge impact on the aerodynamic drag of the car, which is the car’s secret sauce, so to speak.

For sticking weatherstripping, I have found that an annual spray-down with silicone lubricant works wonders to prevent freezing in place.

[g-johns]

Use silicone, once a month.

[kerbe2705]

At present there are only three alpha-level prototypes – essentially “proof of concept” models. They are not the actual vehicle that will eventually be built – they’re not even made of the same materials. Any testing done on them would be moot.

Vehicle designs, traditionally, go through four levels of prototyping. Right now Aptera is building the molds from which the beta prototype bodies will be pulled – and working with suppliers to create components for the vehicle that will be closer (if not identical) to those that will go into production vehicles.

Endurance testing is usually carried-out using the gamma (production intent) prototypes as they have nearly all of the finalized systems intact – although they’re still mostly hand-built. The delta (production ready) prototypes are the first to be built using the actual “assembly line”.

[peter-robbinson]

The replies have been great, thanks. With regards to the doors, I was thinking more along the lines of what’s used on an airline. The door on the Aptera certainly would be light enough to not require too heavy a hinge. If you need a cold weather tester I’m available 😉

[Dr.D]

Perhaps this is answered in some FAQ. Why gullwing doors?

Also, when the door is open and you are seated, how far up is the reach for the handle to close the door?

[len]

There is a long strap on the door to pull down

I have been in the Sol and it closes easy “ for Me”

But you can see the strap in many pictures and videos

[Riley]

I believe they selected butterfly doors due to the wheel pods. Also they look cool.

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[Pistonboy]

Regardless if the doors are gull-wing or some other design, I just hope the switch for the electric window is a mechanical switch in the door, and not a touch pad on the touch screen.

[Mr.Dude]

This may have already been addressed somewhere, but how do you get inside the vehicle (as well as open the hatch) since there are no door handles? Additionally, will there be some sort of integrated ice breaker (like that on the Tesla Model X) for those of us that deal with frozen doors in the winter?

[n-bruce-nelson]

Hayden, I have this response from Kayleigh Venne, the Community Lead at Aptera –

“The vehicle will recognize that it is you trying to open the door. We have not made a final selection on this but the Aptera will have proximity detection to unlock the doors. Such as a Bluetooth connection via smartphone, through our app, or a proximity key. Once inside, you can open the door through the center screen controls. The doors will have a manual pull handle for emergencies though.”

[kerbe2705]

“unlocking” and “opening” are two very different things…

[catahoula_dad]

Do we have any idea if knocking, (or however they decide to open the doors) will be disabled if the “key” is inside ? As an example, can somebody open your door at a stop and get in.

[kerbe2705]

At one point Founder Chris stated that there will be an exterior button, similar to that on the Ford Mach-e. The doors will have a “popper” mechanism that opens them slightly, allowing the edge to be grasped to open the door fully.

[george-hughes]

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What Kayleigh’s statement said to me is this is all part of the real source of innovation at Aptera … They say it has a proximity lock on the door because this is one of the design specifications.

The entire door mechanism is being designed for quick, efficient assembly preferably using as few parts as possible and being able to be attached to the roof structure, be opened thousands of times, be driven occasionally unlatched, contain an electric window lift and no blow away if caught by the wind awkwardly. This is precisely the type of work folks like Monro and Rousch do and I think Rousch has the door component manufacturing contract.

The really cool part of this is the doors are going to have fit random, custom formed composite chassis and shell. A design that makes it easy to attain the expected level of fit and finish is an engineering marvel as that level of finish requires precise, near perfect, tolerances and the real world is such an imperfect mess.

Everybody knows the problems that Tesla has had with fit and finish and how they’ve made large strides toward quality fit in large part by minimizing variations through mega-castings.

Think about it, Aptera is starting out with the low weight composite castings – four large pieces – that are glued together and filled with foam during the assembly process using procedures that involve the work of two men. The machines that spit out composite components don’t require the pressures of Tesla’s mega-casting machines – they are slower, less pressurized but no less precise a molding process; you’re just using ultra-lightweight fibers and composites instead of an aluminum alloy injected at high heat in a matter of seconds under intense pressure.

No welds, no super-heated alloy concoctions that have to have thousands of tons of pressure to work …I’d say Aptera’s processes are more advanced and contribute further to a sustainable footprint.

[kerbe2705]

From what I understand, the composite structures aren’t “cast” – they’re SMC (at least at present…). Some of the suspension components will be cast, though.

[george-hughes]

It is a process analogous to ‘casting’ metal but is appropriate for fiber composite construction. My limited knowledge of the process involves how you make a bass boat but the point is these composite chassis aren’t made like a flimsy gonzo “GT” body you strap on a space frame with a VW drivetrain.

The point is if you are coordinating the manufacturing process with the plan being to bring components in for final assembly from independent contractors, you best plan carefully for it by employing processes that can minimize variation.

The composite monocoque has to be of a precise dimension as does the door if the two items, completed as a component in different locations have to be able to work together.

Frankly, of all the aspects of Aptera, the one I’ve not seen explored adequately is how the monocoque ‘parts’ are fabricated, rate of production or precision. I just have faith that the technology here is up to the task because it could be a disaster otherwise.

[kerbe2705]

At present they are fiberglass, laid-up in molds – exactly like a bass boat. You can see the assembling of structural body pieces in the video about the building of the Beta. The pieces are fitted into assembly bucks and then the various parts are connected to one another with adhesives.

So far as I know, fiberglass doesn’t shrink, expand or distort in its manufacturing process: Tesla’s “panel gap” woes have been about steel and aluminum sheet metal doing just that. Moving from the Model 3’s 30-part trunk structure to the Model Y’s 3 (and now 2) part structure as a result of employing cast framing components makes a lot of difference

[jonah-jorgenson]

George has the most recent official statement about door unlock/lock mechanisms from an official Aptera source. As expected and noted, things can change as development proceeds. We should always check on the latest response to a question as earlier responses may have been supplanted by more recent development.

[john-malcom]

We don’t know the specifics of the Aptera documented assembly process to the level that George discusses. (unless George has a reference he can share with us) as to the number of people that will work at a body assembly station. Also I know of no reference to filling an assembled carbon body with foam. We expect the fit and finish to be good. Certainly better than the door on the gamma, that in videos from Switzerland, showed an ill fitting door. As to the pressure needed to form the carbon bodies, CPC has presses ranging from 300 to 5,000 tons. Like the process and staffing, we don’t know which press or presses will be used for Aptera parts. Even a 300 ton press is quite a lot. We understand that Aptera is sufficiently conscientious about quality that members of the Aptera team are onsite at CPC to insure uniform quality of Aptera bodies Constructed/assembled there. <div>

A comparison of the Aptera carbon fiber pressing and assembly to the Tesla gigs press process is apples to oranges as both are from different philosophical foundations for vehicle manufacturing. The Aptera process would not work for Tesla (Small comparative volume) and the Tesla approach would not work for Aptera. (Vertical integration and capital cost)

The quality of the Aptera end product is yet to be determined. The quality of the Tesla end product is demonstrably poor but widely successful in the market place.

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[george-hughes]

John:

I’m sure a lot of folks don’t see things quite as I see them but the logical requirements of the body making process for Aptera using composites would require the type of precision described to work.

The date on the posts above predate the CPC announcement by at least eight to ten months although I think I described accurately the precision of the CF-SMC panels that CPC will apparently employ. It is the precision of the CPC processes that make them work … and the inability to get the foam-filled composite tub process to be produced with the required minimal variation in volume is why they abandoned the composite approach initially planned. I wrote back then (3/30/22):

Frankly, of all the aspects of Aptera, the one I’ve not seen explored adequately is how the monocoque ‘parts’ are fabricated, rate of production or precision. I just have faith that the technology here is up to the task because it could be a disaster otherwise.

That seems rather prescient.

I think the approach that Aptera, through CPC has adopted, from the injection of color into the exterior presenting SCM panels to the use of pressure, heat and finishing CPC uses to form the six panels used to make the Aptera body. As Monro stated in that video noting the partnership with CPC – one of the few if not only company on the planet capable of profitably producing these CF bodies – everything will fit precisely and that is important to volume production with minimal downtime making things fit or fixing them when they don’t.

• This reply was modified 6 months, 1 week ago by  George Hughes.

[john-malcom]

Actually, neither you nor I have any understanding of Aptera’s production plans, processes or procedures. There is no logic than can be applied unless the author has had experience with Sandy Munro’s lean production process modified by Pablo. I have not had any experience with either. But, I have about 50 years of production process experience in the automotive and product industry and from that experience I can say you are off base with your production musing.

But have fun!

[Pistonboy]

I thought Chris had said in a video, the door would have a thumb print reader on the outside of the door. The driver would place their thumb on the reader and the vehicle would recognize the driver that way.

If I walk out of my house to get something out of my vehicle, do I have to take the phone with me? While at home, I do not carry the phone with me.

How would someone like a repair mechanic be able to enter the vehicle. He will not have our app on his phone. Would this require a key of some type? Electronic key fob?

Oh the headaches of being chic and trendy!

[elysianite]

Now, having finally gotten to sit in an Aptera in Long Beach, I began to wonder why the doors weren’t more of a scissor (think Lamborghini) design, as it seems rather intrusive as is. People were very commonly hitting their head (gently, but still), or really bending back to get away from it while entering. Anyway, hopefully a little tweaking is still feasible and won’t hinder any other beneficial design features.

[harry-parker]

They have modified the door design to allow easier access. What you sat in was the earlier Alpha design prototype. It has been modified since they built that. Also the passengers will have more headroom.

[kerbe2705]

@Harry Parker As I recall from one of the ambassador webinars, the shape of the doors was changed to create a larger open area at the drivers’ and passengers’ hips and the hinges were relocated and reengineers to allow the doors to open slightly more “up” than “out”.

[NorthernSouler]

Does anyone have any guesses how this system will work in climates that have freezing rain &/or mixed rain and snow in a freeze/thaw cycle?

I’ve had enough experience using hair dryers and brute force to open frozen car doors that I’m trying to figure out how you’d pull that stunt off without door handles. (I guess crawling through the trunk to get to the front seat, then wait for the heater to kick in and thaw the ice out of the jambs?)

[OZ.]

You should be able to activate the climate control remotely through the App.

[mihir-sanghavi]

Automatic doors, do we know if only the opening is automated, or also the closing? Apologize if this was already answered.

[Sam]

The opening is not automated. You unlatch the door and the struts lift it open. You will have to pull it closed.

[stanart]

Something that has bothered me about the doors on the gamma is that they don’t seem to fit as well as the doors on the alpha models. They appear to be slightly misaligned when closed and don’t seem to fit flush with the body. You can see this also on the brief video of the gamma in the “wild”. Hopefully this just needs some small adjustment.

[ROMAD]

Probably a result of their slap-dash rush to meet an arbitrary deadline last month. It is also evident in the solar cells on the roof. Hopefully they will be more careful about quality workmanship on the Delta vehicle.

[dirk-engel]

Hello, greetings from Germany on several videos you can see that the doors get stuck on the wheel arch i hope that’s because it’s a prototype.Hello, greetings from Germany on several videos you can see that the doors get stuck on the wheel arch i hope that’s because it’s a prototype.

[Russell]

Yes, that has been fixed

[randy-j]

Magna put out this release today:

Magna’s SmartAccess Power Door System Hits the Market in Style

Complete power door system with first-to-market Haptronik^TM motion control

Market debut on Ferrari Purosangue

Redefines the consumer access experience

AURORA, Ontario, March 07, 2023 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) — Magna is revolutionizing vehicle access experiences with the launch of its SmartAccess power door system on the opposing rear doors of the Ferrari Purosangue. The complete system includes Magna’s power door drive unit, SmartLatch with cinch actuator and first-to-market integrated Haptronik software.

Haptronik is an innovative motion control software that enhances the tactile feel of door movement, enabling effortless opening and closing. It can detect when the vehicle is parked on a curb or a hill and automatically adapts the gravitational force so that opening and closing remains smooth in these conditions. It also includes anti-slam and wind catch features.

“As an industry leader in advanced mechatronic systems, we are excited to bring one of our most innovative solutions to market,” said Jeff Hunt, President of Magna Mechatronics, Mirrors and Lighting. “By combining our mechanical expertise with our advanced software capabilities, we have been able to reimagine traditional vehicle access and offer a unique and more luxurious experience when entering the Purosangue.”

The system will launch with several other Asian and North American automakers in 2023. SmartAccess can also offer a host of additional consumer-related features including:

Ability to customize the door feel to specific consumer desires,

Gesture control allowing the wave of a hand to open or close the side door,

Non-contact obstacle detection where the side doors can sense a post or adjacent vehicle and stop the door in a controlled manner, and

Keypad for seamless keyless entry.

[joshua-caldwell]

Aptera folk are all about the only thing you have to do is tap the Aptera logo and the doors will open. In Tesla’s, the handles retract.

I would like way to AVOID the freezing problem that Tesla’s are infamous for in the winter. Cars where the doors cannot be opened when frozen seriously suck! I’m in North Carolina now, but I used to be in Pennsylvania where a hair dryer would sometimes have to be run around the edges of the door and use muscle power on the handle to get the ice cracked and the door opened, but this doesn’t even work with Tesla’s and I would like to avoid this in the Aptera!

[craig-merrow]

I was thinking a nylon strap that could be hooked to the armrest and dangle outside of the car when the door is shut. That would give you something to pull on if there is a lot of frost or ice buildup on/around the door.

[joshua-caldwell]

I thank you both for those suggestions in case I ever move back north where it’s not so horribly hot, humid, and windless.

[Biker]

Aptera posted about the door design on the socials: Inside the doors you’ll find engineering for safety. Composite and metallic elements provide safety and strength while remaining lightweight.

We are not just making parts, we are analyzing each step of the way and validating them against rigorous standards and metrics. We will be sharing updates on our structure and safety approach in the coming weeks

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/apteramotors_accelerateaptera-activity-7042910154945687552-jkTp?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop

[john-malcom]

Thanks for posting on the forum for all. Substantive information on side impact safety. Something all should be interested in while looking forward to safety testing results

• This reply was modified 6 months, 1 week ago by  John Malcom. Reason: Corrected spelling

[ROMAD]

So they won’t need the steel side impact beams used in current vehicles?

[Greek]

Aren’t there 2 intersections beams towards the end of the video?

[ROMAD]

I hadn’t seen the video; I’ll check YouTube. If there are, are they steel or aluminum?

[Greek]

They are referred to as metallic elements.

[ROMAD]

Ah, very light weight ALCOA Wrap! 😆

[wingsounds13]

I believe that they recently said steel beams in the doors for side impact protection.