Cold Weather Performance?

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Cold Weather Performance?

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Cold Weather Performance?

  • Cold Weather Performance?

  • DON RASKY

    Member
    July 29, 2022 at 6:20 pm

    I may retire to cold country, i.e., areas of the USA that routinely see winter temperatures in the -40 to -65 F. What effects will extreme cold have on the Aptera? NOTE: I have to assume that I will not always have the vehicle garaged in such winter conditions.

  • Curtis Cibinel

    Member
    July 29, 2022 at 6:37 pm

    Wow your nuts. I’m Canadian, grew up on ski hills and rarely see 0F (-18c).

    • Dennis Swaney

      Member
      July 29, 2022 at 6:54 pm

      Maybe he’s in Alaska!

    • DON RASKY

      Member
      July 29, 2022 at 8:49 pm

      Not nuts, I just don’t want to waste money on a purchase that cannot perform wherever I choose to retire in the United States. If my $900.00 ’75 Pontiac could hack such weather, it would be pretty pathetic if a $30 to $40k electric failed to be useable to a reasonable degree in such weather. While my old Pontiac’s fuel economy likely dropped by 30 to40% in such conditions initially, once it warmed up it was right back to its 15 mpg after it warmed up. While weather patterns are cyclical and folks seem to be counting on global climate change to prevent such temperatures, I assure you that I was out delivering papers as a paper boy in minus 30 to minus 40F as a young man. Today I suppose that would be considered child abuse. When I was young, folks just called it work.

  • John Malcom

    Member
    July 29, 2022 at 8:08 pm

    Aptera is engineered for a temperature range of from -20F to 125F. An environment outside of that range will significantly degrade performance. If You actually plan to live in such an environment, I would not recommend an Aptera. Perhaps a rain deer …..Or even better a dog sled

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 2 days ago by  John Malcom.
    • DON RASKY

      Member
      July 29, 2022 at 8:41 pm

      Oh you are a funny one…. I grew up in Milwaukee Wisconsin as a young man. I’ve seen minus 40 to minus 65 in the city two city blocks from the Great Lake Michigan. I have seen and have worked in minus 100F at Fort McCoy in the interior of Wisconsin. Before you suspect that the temperatures to which I refer are influenced by wind chill, I assure you that these were actual F temperatures reported directly by the national weather service for Milwaukee Wisconsin (-40F to -65F) and the -100F was read directly from a thermometer at Ft. McCoy when I served there in the United States Army recovering heavy equipment, i.e., M60 A3 tanks, 2-1/2 ton and 5 ton trucks. I was asking a serious question regarding the vehicle and its durability Yours was not a serious answer. If I purchase an Aptera, I want to know that even if I have to park it in extreme conditions that it will not fail simply for getting cold. My $900.00 ’75 Pontiac Lemans not only started in -65 and -100F (without windchill), it performed wonderfully. For $30k to $40k+ I expect no less from an electric vehicle without needing to pamper it. Vehicles are for me tools and transportation and not toys or lifestyle choices.

      • Harry Parker

        Moderator
        July 29, 2022 at 8:55 pm

        That’s surprising. I remember XC skiing in northern Vermont. One morning it was -40 degrees, the one temperature that is the same in F and C. The only people who could start their caars that morning either had crank case oil heaters and maybe battery heaters plugged in, or had brought their 12 volt battery brought inside for the night to stay warm.

        Perhaps your ’75 Pontiac was similarly plugged in?

        If an EV was plugged in, it too would keep itself warm that night, although the cabin heat might be less than you’d like. EV batteries need to be above freezing to charge, so they have heaters.

        • DON RASKY

          Member
          July 29, 2022 at 9:03 pm

          As the token mechanic in the family, I was responsible for taking the batteries inside the house when extreme cold was forecast. I also bought the biggest and the best brand new battery prior to each winter or every other winter, I forget which now. It was really funny too since when we hit that extreme cold snap I had been razzed by my relatives and neighbors just what a jalopy my car was because I was always fixing it and repairing it. I also ran much thinner oil in the winter than in the summer. At Ft. McCoy, it started (I think) without taking the battery in though I might have taken it in to the barracks. It’s been roughly 40 years since I was a track and wheel mechanic in the Army. It did start though and in those conditions you’d be luck to get 2-3 10-second starting attempts. Also, if you didn’t get your car to start each and every day in those conditions you had to have it towed or jumped by AAA.

          • DON RASKY

            Member
            July 29, 2022 at 9:06 pm

            It was so cold once that the pads for the rear drum brakes actually froze to the drums. When they finally came loose, the noise from the release was so loud that I thought I had shattered or cracked the drums. Luckily, the drums were intact. I even recall that before I had AAA I had a flat in Illinois during cold weather and needed my propane torch to loosen the lug nuts. Again, not nuts just young.

            • Dennis Swaney

              Member
              July 30, 2022 at 9:21 am

              That happened to me a couple of times when I set the parking brake in the winter after driving in rain. I no longer set parking brakes in the winter!

        • DON RASKY

          Member
          July 29, 2022 at 9:14 pm

          Another reason I wondered about the Aptera in extreme cold is that when things get really really cold and you can’t do much of anything else, ice fishing is really popular. If you can bring a light weight vehicle onto the ice vs. a traditional ICE vehicle, you can fish a lot more places and do so without fear of your vehicle and yourself plunging into bitter cold waters. When the waters are at freezing and the air temperature is bitter cold, you have minutes to extricate yourself from the waters and the ice and to get to shelter. Going through the ice was never a big item on my bucket list. I have been camping on frozen lakes in single to digits down to 0F. Never camped on ice below that temperature.

      • John Malcom

        Member
        July 29, 2022 at 9:14 pm

        It was not a flippant answer.

        The operating temperature range is -20F to 125F. You can find those numbers in the vehicle description on the site. There is no plan to engineer or test outside of those ranges.

        The coldest temperature ever officially recorded in the lower 48 states was -69.7°F reported from Rogers Pass, Montana on January 20, 1954.

        Another interesting piece of information. Motor working oil (10W30) freezes at –20°F, but from 50°F, to 0F the viscosity of the oil becomes more and more difficult to handle.

        When I was stationed at FT Wainwright we always equiped our vehicles with electric engine oil pan heaters to keep the oil warm so the vehicle would start.

        • This reply was modified 1 week, 2 days ago by  John Malcom.
        • DON RASKY

          Member
          July 29, 2022 at 9:18 pm

          I was there. I lived through and worked in those temperatures in Wisconsin. Your data is askew or in error. And yes, your dog sled and reindeer comments were flippant. Those are not serious answers. You and I really do not need to discuss this further. By the way did you read the part where I wrote that I used much much thinner oil in the winter and I took the batteries inside during extreme cold. Please no more tying to justify sarcasm.

          • John Malcom

            Member
            July 29, 2022 at 9:26 pm

            Hard to dispute official records. Data is accurate.

          • John Malcom

            Member
            July 29, 2022 at 9:31 pm

            Hard to dispute official records as not being correct. But what ever you say

            • DON RASKY

              Member
              July 30, 2022 at 12:13 pm

              You were not there. You are here however and seem to be more concerned with you personally proving a point that does not relate to a sincere inquiry. If you think I’m wrong, mistaken, or BS-ING, please don’t waste your time responding to me. You are accomplishing no good thing.

          • kerbe2705

            Member
            July 29, 2022 at 11:03 pm

            @DON RASKY Here’s one reputable source – the list is created from NOAA’s National Weather Service. Perhaps the temperatures you’ve listed are Wind Chill Factors?

            https://weather.com/news/climate/news/coldest-temperature-recorded-50-states

            • DON RASKY

              Member
              July 30, 2022 at 12:10 pm

              Not wind chill temps. No one who has ever lived and worked and spent times in the outdoors really counts wind chill temps. These were thermometer temps. When I lived in Milwaukee, our “official” temps were measured at the Milwaukee airport which was not always the same temperature everywhere else in the city. Again, these were thermometer temps. Officially measured temperatures does not mean that it wasn’t colder somewhere else regionally. Finally, the point of my inquiry was the potential durability and survivability of the Aptera. Have you ever chopped an ice fishing hole through 4 feet of ice? Well, I have. You do not get 4 feet of ice in milder temps.

            • Joshua Rosen

              Member
              August 1, 2022 at 2:08 pm

              Nobody is disputing that it can get extremely cold in Wisconsin, the only dispute is with the -100F figure. It’s not possible, it had to be a mistake when reading the thermometer or a defect with the thermometer. I grant you that it can be colder than the official readings at the airport but not 45F colder, 5 or 10 degrees maybe 15 but not 45. The record for the US is -80F and that was in Alaska, in the lower 48 it was -70F in Montana.

              You are right to be concerned about how well it will handle the worst day of the winter, nobody here can answer those questions. EVs can function in extremely cold temperature, there are lots of Tesla’s in Wisconsin, Minnesota and Canada and if there was a problem we would have heard about it. The Aptera has wheel motors instead of conventional motors, will the seals on the wheel motors have a problem, maybe, hope not. Will the composite structure become brittle, probably not but it would be nice if someone from Aptera would say that.

      • Francis Giroux

        Member
        July 31, 2022 at 4:35 pm

        The lowest temperature ever recorded in Sparta, Wisconsin was -48 °F which occurred on January 30, 1951: https://www.extremeweatherwatch.com/cities/sparta

      • Joshua Rosen

        Member
        August 1, 2022 at 10:53 am

        Here is a map of the lowest temperatures ever recorded in the US.

        https://weather.com/news/climate/news/coldest-temperature-recorded-50-states

        Wisconsin can get pretty damn cold, -55F is the record, but there is no place in North America that has ever been down to -100F, if you saw that on a thermometer then it was defective, if you are talking about wind chill that only applies to people not machines. The record for Alaska is -80F. The coldest place on Earth is Vostok Antarctica which got down to -127F.

        -40 does happen, I’ve experienced that in Appleton Wisc, so it’s important that the car be able to survive temperatures like that without damage and I’m pretty sure it will. If I still lived in Wisconsin that would be my only concern, when it gets that cold I’d just stay home.

        • This reply was modified 6 days, 22 hours ago by  Joshua Rosen.
        • This reply was modified 6 days, 22 hours ago by  Joshua Rosen.
      • Paul Hackett

        Member
        August 2, 2022 at 12:45 pm

        Deep slow breaths. Keep the big picture in focus. You’re right Don.

  • Vernon SINNOTT

    Member
    July 29, 2022 at 8:44 pm

    I am surprised Aptera hasn’t tested @ -40. Are there any plans to do so? Last winter Southern Alberta had a month straight of -30 C.

    • kerbe2705

      Member
      July 29, 2022 at 11:15 pm

      @Vernon SINNOTT Aptera hasn’t done ANY weather testing yet – they’re working from simulations as they haven’t yet built an actual production-spec vehicle. It does no good to test unfinished products IRL situations because the actual results will vary.

      By general design, electric motors are typically designed for an ambient temperature range of 40C (100F) to about -20C (-4F). Below -25C (-13F), you must consider the lubrication and material being used in the manufacturing of the motor.

      • Vernon SINNOTT

        Member
        July 30, 2022 at 7:41 am

        It is a good thing I have an underground parking stall. I tend to hibernate at -30.

        • Jonah Jorgenson

          Member
          July 30, 2022 at 8:14 am

          I do MUCH before that. I am a FL wimp and stay inside as much as possible after +40F

      • Dennis Swaney

        Member
        July 30, 2022 at 9:26 am

        If they haven’t, then they should not be selling any vehicles until they are fully tested, preferably in a climate chamber.

      • John Malcom

        Member
        July 30, 2022 at 10:44 am

        It is true that Aptera has done no cold weather testing of the vehicle as a whole because they are still building prototypes and this kind of testing should be done on the final version of the vehicle.

        A component that is particularly susceptible to extreme cold are the in wheel motors. The Elaphe motors in the Aaptera have been successfully tested in temperatures down to -40C/F (Same temp on both scales at -40) as far back as 2017.

        I particularly like this video where the testing is done in China on a frozen lake using real cars (SUV and Sedan) and over many types of road hazards. That was back in 2017. Think about how more reliable these motors are now with all of the improvements in the last few years.

        Aptera is using the M700 motors with some customization. I thinks they will be one of the most reliable components of the car under all conditions but especially in really cold weather.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlzDE-0TMrUhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlzDE-0TMrUhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlzDE-0TMrUhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlzDE-0TMrU

        • DON RASKY

          Member
          July 30, 2022 at 12:03 pm

          Thank you. This helps. Much appreciated.

  • Gary McLaughlin

    Member
    July 30, 2022 at 4:47 am

    I was born to cold country. Winter temperatures can drop to minus 30 Celsius (-22 F) and below. I currently have a Honda CR-V and a G1 Insight, neither of which require a block heater. I was thinking that the Aptera would be able to replace both of my ICE vehicles. I might have to reconsider that so I’m not left immobile during cold snaps. I did not place my pre-order until April of this year, and I’m hoping there will be some owner feedback on winter performance before my turn in the queue is up.

    • Mark Salyzyn

      Member
      July 30, 2022 at 7:24 am

      Tesla’s battery warranty is void if the vehicle is left _unplugged_ for 24 hours at temperatures below -30oF. I expect IMHO the same of Aptera, maybe hedging a bit at -20oF given their stated operating temperatures. Please, just make arrangements to bring a level 1 plug to your car wherever it is parked, especially for those days that reach below -20oF for more than an hour or two.

      My Assumption:

      – For my reservation, I am assuming that Aptera will have but a 90 day warranty, with some manufacturer good will attached where they have a chance to convert a disgruntled customer into an astounded customer. That is the value proposition of owning the first production solar car.

      – Operating temperatures != outside temperature though, so once moving you should be ok for the even lower outside temperatures. I assume Aptera will provide you details on their GUI regarding critical issues.

      – Their battery will self-heat using their reserve energy when not plugged in for those times you forget. An occasional overnight should not be a problem, but do not expect your hub-motors to be happy, take it easy. Hopefully Aptera will run current through the windings under these conditions to get them warmed up to operating temperatures.

      – I live in Florida, I am retired in Florida, but have lived in Northern Alberta for 30 years, and have worked as far north as Uranium City (which is 100% populated by divorced men trying to escape spousal support, truly out of reach of civilization). We place garbage can lids with burning coals in them underneath our cars to keep them warm. Trust me, I know what real cold is …

      • DON RASKY

        Member
        July 30, 2022 at 11:59 am

        This sounds right. I recall folks using pans of hot coals to keep the oil pans warm. Fun memories from a distance. As much as I love warm weather, been in So Cal. since my 20’s but in retirement really could live anywhere as cold never really bothered me. Moved where I am today because in the late 80’s work was still sparse in Milwaukee. Retired, I’m thinking about everything from desert plot to north woods interior cabin. Keeping it plugged in on 110v makes a lot of sense. So long as the cabin windows can remain clear in extreme cold, I could see some aggressive tires making for a lot of fun even on frozen gravel/dirt roads and frozen lakes and streams. Used to wear snowmobile suits in the car until the heater kicked in. We also used to just dress for the weather rather than always assuming a running car with a working heater. Too many people died each winter from assuming their car would always run and the heater would always work. Knowing the basic machine can be kept healthy with minimal measures like just plugging it in during extreme cold is reassuring to me.

  • Dan Kerpe

    Member
    July 30, 2022 at 10:22 am

    I’m just going to chime in that of my 42 years on this planet, all but 5 of them have been in Sheboygan, just 45 miles away from Don. Never in my life have I seen those extreme temps. I’m thinking someone’s embellishing just a touch.

    • Joshua Rosen

      Member
      July 30, 2022 at 11:31 am

      Looks like we have a Sheboygan club. My mother grew up in Sheboygan, I went there frequently when my grandparents were alive. There are several generations of my family buried in the Sheboygan Hebrew Cemetery in Kohler. My experience with -40 temperature comes from going to college in Appleton, it wasn’t pleasant.

      • This reply was modified 1 week, 1 day ago by  Joshua Rosen.
    • DON RASKY

      Member
      July 30, 2022 at 11:49 am

      Pal, before you call me a liar. Live my life. I’m nearly 60. You’re just a kid to me.

      • John Hermann

        Member
        July 30, 2022 at 12:04 pm
        • DON RASKY

          Member
          July 30, 2022 at 12:43 pm

          Again, you were not there. I know what the temperatures were where I lived and I worked when in Wisconsin. Because some official somewhere didn’t record it in an official record does not mean the temperature didn’t happen. Ever have a wrench freeze to your hand while working on an open driveway in Wisconsin? I have. I trust what I saw with my own eyes and what the temperature read at Ft. McCoy when we had to go out and recover the vehicles we buried the day before the bottom dropped out of the thermometer. So… if an official isn’t there when the temperature falls, did it really happen? Yes. Again, the real point of the inquiry is will the Aptera be damaged by extreme cold and how to prevent it. Until it can do better than my used $900.00 ’75 Pontiac Lemans Sport Coupe, it isn’t worth the money yet. Even if my ICE cars needed a tow some days or a jump, The basic machines were rarely damaged by the extreme cold, though one window shattered on simply closing the door to the family car and the diaphragm failed in my Pontiac’s fuel pump and began to mist out of the weep hole due to the extreme cold. Again, you were not there staring at the thermometer.

          • John Hermann

            Member
            July 30, 2022 at 1:14 pm

            Yeah, I’m sure every weather station and news outlet in the state managed to overlook a localized temporary phenomenon that happened to be a full 40-degrees lower than anything ever recorded in the history of the state.

            Regardless, I can personally attest to Tesla’s working just fine at -30F albeit with a minor reduction in range due to the cost of temperature management systems for the battery. I’m sure Aptera will be fine as well.

          • Robert Acevedo

            Member
            July 31, 2022 at 4:12 pm

            Where do you get a thermometer that goes to -100f? A Mercury thermometer tops off at -40f at which point it becomes a solid, but with additives can be lowered to around -60f. Also why would you have equipment that measures down to -100f?

      • Dan Kerpe

        Member
        July 31, 2022 at 9:35 am

        Don, you specifically said it happens routinely. That simply isn’t true. NOAA records temps once an hour, every single day. They have multiple weather stations in Milwaukee. So far I’ve only found one day in the last ten years that exceeded the limits of an Aptera, and that was by 2 degrees.

        • Dennis Swaney

          Member
          August 2, 2022 at 7:21 pm

          Guess you’ve never heard of microclimates, Dan. NOAA can’t measure the the temperatures EVERYWHERE so they pick certain places for their “OFFICIAL” readings. One place that is always chosen is, if there is one, the local airport. Then the MIGHT pick another one (or more) in the region depending on how urbanized it is; the more urbanized, the more sensors. Sensor elevation is also a player, as is forestation. I live in Prescott, AZ and my home is at 5,300 feet elevation; the “OFFICIAL” weather measurement is out at the airport 300 feet lower elevation and at least 4 miles away.

  • John Malcom

    Member
    July 30, 2022 at 2:03 pm

    Well, I think we are through with this. We can be confident that Aptera will have a thorough testing plan and will publish the results in the production version performance parameters. We will see these and have a chance to review and assess against our use cases before making a purchase decision.

  • Vernon SINNOTT

    Member
    July 30, 2022 at 5:47 pm

    uLyaaZay uLyaaZay

  • cody dahl

    Member
    July 31, 2022 at 9:43 am

    All electric vehicles suffer a lot in cold weather, I live in MN where -20F is common in the coldest part of winter. I currently own a Chevy Volt, I typically see my range go from 50 miles on electric to as low as 22 miles in winter. I have also read that Chevy bolts can loose up to 50% range in these conditions if there stored outside. So I’m still planning on getting the Aptera while still dealing with -20F or colder weather in winter but I’m just expecting to loose around 50% of the range which is why I went with the 400 mile version.

    • John Voules

      Member
      July 31, 2022 at 3:15 pm

      I suffer not as much…preconditioning my i3 battery truly helps to extend its winter battery range.

  • Ron sssss

    Member
    August 1, 2022 at 9:48 am

    Don asked a reasonable question. All he has gotten is grief.

    Great, we know spec says -20F. We already knew that, that is why we are asking the question.

    Would the company consider testing to lower temps, to be able to work in similar temp ranges as gas/diesel? Maybe do the lower temp testing later, after you get the production rate up to expand your sales range.

    I live in a similar temp range. We live where we live so don’t call us crazy. I could say crazy is living in L.A. on known fault lines. Crazy is living in “tornado alley”, especially in trailer parks. Crazy is living in hurricane zone like Florida, Texas, or LA. We all accommodate risks where live.

    We want to know if Aptera is even a remote possibility where we live. Cody is only one who provided a useful answer. His Chevy Volt got half range at -20F. OK, so my 400mi battery would get something less than 200 miles. How much less for the extra 20F lower? Maybe there could be an extra plug in battery warmer option separate from charging.

    I worked in a logging camp. It took us half a day to start of the heavy logging equipment if someone forgot to plug them in over night. The camp foreman bought a new 1985 EFI pickup, and forgot to plug it in. Everyone watched expectantly to see if it would start. It did, no problem, Yay! But, he got a big round of applause when the glued on door trim fell off his brand new truck.

    So, at -45F is there something that will “fall off” the Aptera? Will the electric motor work? Will there be excessive wear on some part since electric does not use motor oil for lubrication?

    I like the concept of the vehicle. I too am retired. I don’t do much milage, especially in the winter. But it might still be workable. If it works at all …

    We need a response from the company or an EV owner, no more trolls.

    • Michael Kahlow

      Member
      August 1, 2022 at 12:18 pm

      Agree completely. I live near Minneapolis/St. Paul, grew up near where the OP talks about. It’s not THAT cold, but we get a night at -20 F or below about every year or so, -30 F would be exceptional, but not out of the question. For those who haven’t experienced this – you go outside into the bright sunshine and the first breath of air burns your lungs. When planes fly overhead, they make a noise like you’re tearing fabric. Walking more than two blocks with bare skin is inviting frostbite, especially if there’s a wind.

      Frankly, many people just stay home when it gets this cold – but you never know if you might need the car that day.

      I get the current Aptera strategy – sun, sun, sun. The banner above the community page has a young woman carrying a surfboard. They could probably limit sales to California, Arizona, and Nevada and still make a profit. I get it.

      But for those of us in the more northern climes, there are questions about whether the vehicle design and testing includes cold, ice, and snow. Those questions are best answered by someone from the company. Otherwise, I could wait until others in The Land of Ice and Snow get their cars delivered, and get their opinions… but I’d prefer the testing be done pre-release rather than relying on customers as test drivers.

    • Jonah Jorgenson

      Member
      August 1, 2022 at 1:47 pm

      I can understand the concern from people living in “Northern climes”, but think asking questions about cold climate performance is not productive at this time. Aptera is still in the prototype stage and there is no real world performance data on any of the subsystems with the possible exception of the in wheel motors.

      I can not fault Aptera for initially focusing on a market that doesn’t have such sever conditions as they are a startup and need to get production vehicles into the market and generate sales revenue to sustain operations.

      I agree that these questions can only be answered by someone from Atera engineering as any response form a forum person is only unsubstantiated speculation.

      I disagree though that vehicle testing results from engineering testing is better than observations of new owners with the Aptera in real world conditions. Not matter how thorough engineering testing is it can not replicate testing by real drivers in the varied conditions encountered in real world driving.

      A good example of that is the issues Tesla has with cold weather performance experienced by their driver/owners. The Tesla vehicles went through cold weather testing and then, when driven by owners in cold weather conditions, had real problems.

      For context, I am a space systems engineer and drive a Tesla Model 3.

      One last thing. Cody did not drive an Aptera in cold weather so his response is an apples to oranges comparison as the vehicles were of a different design and differently engineered with different battery chemistry.

      • This reply was modified 6 days, 19 hours ago by  Jonah Jorgenson. Reason: update content
      • Mark Salyzyn

        Member
        August 1, 2022 at 2:46 pm

        Agree, but my reasons differ from yours.

        When I design a product, I always keep my eye on the future. Alas doing could indefinitely delay delivery timelines in the extremes. Your design will always fail on the weakest link, and scaling all the weakest links will always cost you more than covering, or planning them right from the start. We call these countless failures bleeding to death from a thousand papercuts.

        Entrepreneurs have to think this way too, they have to imagine their company at scale, and work like it is already at that scale until it happens.

        Aptera, the car or the company or their partners, if they wish to function in winter, have to design a foundation that has already designed it in today. You can not fix it later without heavy costs. Elon Musk, for example demanded scale and future for his companies, cars, rockets, moles, flamethrowers and ultimately the problems they had were, from the perspective of engineers, all easy fixes to simple slips in oversight in the end as the entire scale, the entire future, was demanded and delivered. Although Aptera stating -20oF, does inspire confidence that Aptera has been thinking this way, the vehicle will sink or swim on weather(sic) they stuck to their guns when designing for the future or not.

        Young engineers actually fail on this point a lot, always looking for the easy or simplest way out. KISS has its place, but never at the corner cases. There are precious few old timer engineers in Aptera to impart this IMHO, but they do have a set of leaders at the helm that had tasted failure and learned from it.

        I agree, until Gamma/Delta/Production happens, we will not know.

        • Paul Schultz

          Member
          August 1, 2022 at 3:59 pm

          FWIW, elaphe has a picture of their motor with a -40C graphic overlaid on the pic. Also, they have videos of it being tested in conditions where ice is frozen over the motor. I don’t recall if that video indicates what temps the motors were tested at.

          It is the motor that is unproven in the real world. I believe that elaphe has shown that they have tested in fairly extreme cold weather. Lithium battery tech using liquid temperature control exists in many other vehicles out on the road right now. It is well documented that cold weather provides a hit on useable electric mileage. But, they do work. I know with my Volt (heaven forbid, another apples-to-oranges) I see a 20-25% hit in electric miles in the Michigan winters. I’d imagine some type of similar hit for the Aptera in cold climates. Order battery size accordingly and all should be good.

          The question is whether the belly pan cooling system is not just for cooling under hot conditions but does it provide temperature control to maintain the battery within an operating temperature range? If the later, then simply pre-condition your Aptera while plugged in to get the battery temp up and then unplug and drive… and enjoy your Aptera in the bitter cold… with somewhat less range.

          https://in-wheel.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/testing-40C.jpg

    • Dan Kerpe

      Member
      August 2, 2022 at 11:23 am

      Ron, I’ll just assume you considered me one of the trolls. That was never my intent. Living in the same area as Don, I fully understand how some days feel like it’s about sixty below zero when the wind comes screaming off the lake, but cars don’t really care about that. The engineer in me doesn’t mind correcting factual errors if there’s hard data to support it. It was in no way an attack on Don. The reason I chimed in so strongly is because misinformation on the internet seems to live on forever. I’d hate to have one misinformed post hurt Wisconsin sales. I don’t think I’d buy one in Northern Wisconsin, it gets cold up there.

      • Ron sssss

        Member
        August 2, 2022 at 2:02 pm

        Part of it is a generational / age thing (I’m a boomer too). Long long ago when I was a kid (and the dinosaurs roamed) we often had snow by mid November, definitely by the first week of December, and once on Halloween. This was substantial snow, enough to be plowed and shovelled. Now, we are really lucky if we get a sprinkle for Christmas.

        So if Don says he encountered a lower than “record” temp at some remote location, I have no problem believing.

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