Disappointing explanation of the Yoke

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Disappointing explanation of the Yoke

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Disappointing explanation of the Yoke

  • Disappointing explanation of the Yoke

     Ray Holan updated 2 weeks, 2 days ago 27 Members · 52 Posts
  • Bob Kirchner

    Member
    June 14, 2022 at 10:26 am

    I wish Aptera could provide an explanation of how the yoke will work and their reasoning behind it. The presentation of the advantages of the yoke in the just completed webinar were muddled by DesignSpeak, but what it boils down to seems, if you read between the words, to amount to aesthetic preference, wanting to appear futuristic, and providing visibility to the rear side view screens.

    That’s well and good enough, although I could have lived without the not-so-subtle put downs of those of us who have reservations, but it offers no insight into how the Yoke will work.

    How many turns lock to lock will it require? Will the steering system have variable ratios? Will it simply be a yoke stuck on to a normal 2+turns lock to lock steering system, such as Tesla uses?

    It’s no longer a deal breaker for me, but the evasiveness on an issue of concern to many doesn’t give me confidence.

  • Jon Arryn

    Member
    June 14, 2022 at 10:28 am

    Obviously an ascetic designer.

    • Bob Kirchner

      Member
      June 14, 2022 at 10:33 am

      I’m fine with ascetic design. It just want to know how they plan to make it work. They’ve had multiple opportunities to explain, and been evasive each time.

      • kerbe2705

        Member
        June 14, 2022 at 10:59 am

        @Bob Kirchner Maybe because they haven’t yet finalized how it’s going to function? Over the past almost two years, whenever they haven’t given a “straight” answer, it’s been because the design was still in flux.

        Take, for example, cupholders…

      • Dennis Swaney

        Member
        June 14, 2022 at 12:41 pm

        They probably don’t know themselves yet. We’re all learning together here.

  • Paul Kirchner

    Member
    June 14, 2022 at 10:41 am

    I really like his DesignSpeak. He chooses his words very carefully, straddling the line between pure design and engineering. It speaks to me.

  • Jonathan Reni

    Member
    June 14, 2022 at 10:55 am

    I think he let the real answer slip, which was to allow visibility of the screen which is located just above the yoke.

  • Joel Smith

    Member
    June 14, 2022 at 11:15 am

    Not sure what the planned (?) charging segment that was all pie-in-the-sky about Tesla charging cables was all about either. That was intended to tell us what, exactly, about the Aptera?

    I was watching it at work. Maybe I missed something?

    • Curtis Cibinel

      Member
      June 14, 2022 at 12:31 pm

      Warning – Pure Speculation: I suspect they are still trying to finalize a deal to include the Tesla plug and have access to superchargers. They keep speaking very clearly of their preference and reverence for the tesla plug standard but have never announced the tesla plug actually being used. 3 months ago most people were fairly sure we would end up with CCS but given the way they are talking about it I think it is far more likely we will eventually get a tesla plug (perhaps not in initial deliveries if agreements take longer).

      • Markus Schmid

        Member
        June 14, 2022 at 12:54 pm

        My speculation on this while watching the live webinar was exactly the same.

      • Steven G. Bueche

        Member
        June 17, 2022 at 4:39 am

        I suspect that a phone in or email campaign will be called upon us to bombard Tesla to allow Aptera to be able to use the charger.

  • Jeffrey May

    Member
    June 14, 2022 at 12:13 pm

    My take: it’s for (1) visibility of the driver-centered screen and (2) cool factor / futuristic aesthetics / Tesla copycatting. I’m sympathetic to the former, but hostile to the latter.

    And while they haven’t stated so explicitly (as far as I’m aware), I’d be willing to bet the bulk of my life savings that there will be nothing unique about the steering ratios. Like you said, it’ll be just like Tesla did, slapping on a yoke onto a conventional steering column.

  • Markus Schmid

    Member
    June 14, 2022 at 12:57 pm

    Probably I should start to work on an aftermarket solution for a clamp-on round steering wheel for those who after driving 10 miles still are uncomfortable with the yoke.

    • Riley ________________________________

      Member
      June 15, 2022 at 1:58 am

      I agree a nice round and thin steering wheel to replace the yoke. Might be one of the first parts of the car I disassemble if it really bothers me.

  • Steven G. Bueche

    Member
    June 14, 2022 at 1:00 pm

    I’m sorry but the interior doesn’t scream The Future. Fabrics are for Jeeps and country wagons. Cloth on a steering wheel is just wrong all the way around.

    Bungie cords in a car that sits in the sun (as we’ve all seen on door pockets and cargo netting) will melt, become slopping looking and be useless in a short period of time.

    The yoke I can adopt to. It has a function to enable clear vision regardless of height to view your screens.

    • Jonah Jorgenson

      Member
      June 14, 2022 at 1:19 pm

      I have to say I agree with you on the choice of materials for the interior.

      I am buying the Aptera for its efficiency, but the currently designed interior is off putting. This reminds me of the Fisker model, where design is preeminent rather than engineering efficiency

      • Steven G. Bueche

        Member
        June 14, 2022 at 1:34 pm

        Bob, remember when you first saw the Aptera and you said, “Wow, that’s cool!”

        I still feel that when I look at the design as it progress’s through it’s prototypes. But I’m bummed when I see the interior now. This is the same stuff in my 96 Jeep Cherokee. Another bad idea for the folks off-roading is cloth. Where are the flowing lines that reflect the outter shape, the movement through air or the future? I’ve seen concept cars reflect future design but this just says, “It’ll do”

        Heck my M3 says more future than this.

        I’ve never heard of Pineapple Leather so I’ll have to research that one. I laughed when I first heard him use that term. I thought he was making up marketing or Save The Planet stuff at first.

        If it turns out to be durable, cover the seats with it. (and the yoke)

        Here’s a link to Pinatex a pineapple manufacturer of pineapple leather. It seems pretty sweat.

        https://www.ananas-anam.com/https://www.ananas-anam.com/

        • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 5 days ago by  Steven G. Bueche. Reason: Additional information
        • Dennis Swaney

          Member
          June 14, 2022 at 2:03 pm

          Sweaty interior materials are not normally the way to go; on the other hand you’ll have a nice pineapple scented interior!

        • Paul Kirchner

          Member
          June 14, 2022 at 2:21 pm

          The link is a 404.

    • M T

      Member
      June 16, 2022 at 7:50 am

      I don’t need “futuristic fabric” (black is fine, no white thank you), but I hope I misread when I saw someone talking about a cloth covered wheel/yoke. That is just plain wrong. Only way to make it worse is to make the fabric white, so everyone has a beige steering wheel 1 year in. There is a reason no one puts cloth on steering wheels…

      • Steven G. Bueche

        Member
        June 17, 2022 at 4:43 am

        My M3 has synthetic leather in white. In the 8 months I’ve had it there’s been no problems. Cleaning is done with baby wipes. They breath and are not prone to the traditional leather sweaty butt in long trips.

    • Jon Arryn

      Member
      June 17, 2022 at 6:58 am

      If you’re worried about the cup holder bungees, what about that 3M vinyl wrap? It doesn’t last in the sun. That’s why 3M doesn’t warranty their wrap product anywhere in southwest. That includes AZ, NM, NV, and parts of Cali. I don’t need a molting vehicle. Re-wrapping every couple of years eliminates any “fuel” savings in these environments.

  • Peter Dezendorf

    Member
    June 14, 2022 at 1:30 pm

    However, they do have an actual stalk for the turn signals.

    • Bob Kirchner

      Member
      June 14, 2022 at 6:04 pm

      Hallelujah and Amen!

      And gesundheit.

  • Paul Schultz

    Member
    June 14, 2022 at 5:07 pm

    I can get by with a yoke. But, not one made of cloth and that looks like a smiling emoji. I agree with others that the materials need to change and my preference is to avoid the 2 tone approach that makes it look more like an emoji!

    • Dennis Swaney

      Member
      June 14, 2022 at 7:01 pm

      In the video where they were showing the “breadboarding” of the cables and different controllers, the squared off steering wheel looked better than the Gamma yoke.

      • Ray Holan

        Moderator
        June 17, 2022 at 5:25 am

        I agree, Bob. This would give you a clear view of the screens and still look cool without the polarizing effect of using a yoke instead. I suppose if you really want to split hairs, you could argue that the yoke will be lighter and use less material?

  • Juan 911

    Member
    June 14, 2022 at 5:36 pm

    I missed the webinar, but I could’ve sworn that I had heard the dash and a lot of the interior was going to be modular. So why install a yoke for an issue with viewing the screens when it’s going to be modular anyway? Unless it’s all going to be permanently fixed. I may be completely mistaken though.

  • seth feldman

    Member
    June 14, 2022 at 10:57 pm

    They have some very very obvious tesla fanboyism. I’m pretty sure that’s 90% of the actual reason for the yoke, and the screen viewing excuse is just a plausible rationale. I highly suggest people pay attention to their hand positions and whether they actually find the 3/9 hand position comfortable on long drives, because some of the custom tesla steering wheels that required swapping internals from the stock were over $1k. if a standard $50 wheel actually fits without losing half of the vehicle controls it’ll be a moot point, which is what I’m hoping for.

  • my_discord_number_is_0328 bloody stupid

    Member
    June 14, 2022 at 11:51 pm

    its probably going to be same as mainstream companies doing it, why any different? so its less output turning per amount of steering wheel turning, but that output increases as you turn the wheel more, so u forced to be more careful with slight movement on the wheel when turning a sharper turn, but for lesser turns your not forced to be so careful. it maybe not annoying to use depending on wether your ok with being forced to pay more attention that much more, youll have to drive it to know that for your self. it is like playing a video game, so not much phsycal feedback from the steering wheel if any.

    not sure if this is more effceont than hydrallic lotus elise kind of steering rack, because electric energy is being used to move the wheels for the user more instead of simply assisting the users phsycal input. hydrallic would force user to pay more attention with feedbakc and bumps on road causing car to move around a little, so user has to stay focused enough to keep car form moving around, and when turning, wheel will give phsycal feedback naturally, and its more fun to drive that way.

  • my_discord_number_is_0328 bloody stupid

    Member
    June 14, 2022 at 11:54 pm

    i designed a wheel on here and on the apteras owners club discord forum server

  • IA -1

    Member
    June 15, 2022 at 10:49 am

    The webinar question was “Can you give us more details about the benefits of the yoke“. The answer that was given (“The benefits are optimizing for the ergonomics, both in the hand feel and also for the vision system“) was not an explanation, but an excuse for a poor design. The real answer would be “No, the yoke doesn’t offer any benefits”.

    I prefer the original Aptera design that you can still see at the online configurator. Round steering wheel, 2 separate screens for the side cameras.

    Lightyear 0 is doing the smart thing with the steering wheel and the side camera screens. Their next solar car Lightyear 2 should be priced $30k-$40k, which should be a big concern for Aptera.

    • Jonah Jorgenson

      Member
      June 17, 2022 at 7:18 am

      Hmmmmm Light Year 0 cost how much??? When will Light Year X be available in the market, especially North America(NA)? How much will it cost then? By that time Aptera will be established in the NA market and can easily compete assuming there is anything to compete with. I think the same in the EU market either with the current variant in 2024 or their follow on variant.

      What Light Year needs to worry about will be the flood of cheap Chinese built EV coming to the EU market, assuming Light Year can stay solvent trying to sell a Light Year 0 in the market until they can market a cheaper alternative.

  • Johnny Acree Acree

    Member
    June 15, 2022 at 3:15 pm

    When a company executive does not tell you something, it’s usually because he can’t. Due to many possible reasons.

    He does say this is the best course for the company, and driver experience.

    That’s good enough for me, for now.

    • Curtis Cibinel

      Member
      June 15, 2022 at 3:35 pm

      While I am 100% good with the yoke and tesla or css plugs I do think that the criticisms around the handling of the questions are valid. Aptera completely controlled the message and what questions were handled in the webinar; they undoubtedly planned exactly what details to include. Both of these topics sidestepped the question people wanted answers to. If they didn’t have something meaningful to say they didn’t need to devote substantial time to the charge plug standards or yoke/wheel; undoubtedly plenty of other potential topics could have been discussed.

      Note: The interior console sections look like they are designed to be easily removed/cleaned. Essentially they designed a modular center console. This is a really unique feature

      PS: I want access to VR view gamma. That would be an amazing tool to enable sharing the vision of Aptera

    • Jonah Jorgenson

      Member
      June 17, 2022 at 7:10 am

      👍👍

  • Francis Giroux

    Member
    June 15, 2022 at 4:21 pm

    Does anybody know whether the steering will be mechanical (like the alphas) or electronic (like the Tesla). If its mechanical, level two self driving is out. If its electronic and most yokes (electronic) are a small number of turns (lock to lock) instead of what you are all used to with most cars with round steering wheels (around 1260 degrees lock to lock on my cars, 3 1/2 turns), don’t you think that the yoke is not going to be a problem if you are not turning it all the way around? Sure Tesla electronic steering is 2.3 turns lock to lock (828 degrees) which some articles say is crap for in city and parking lots, but not on the road. But formula one steering yokes usually turn 360 degrees lock to lock and have an electronic adjustment on the wheel itself. So maximum turn of the wheel (yoke) is 180 degrees in each direction so the driver never has to let go with either hand. Just because Tesla has installed a yoke on a steering system that should use less turns (lock to lock) that doesn’t mean Aptera has to make the same mistake. In fact there should be an adjustment on every yoke so the driver can determine how many turns it takes to go from full left to full right. I assume Tesla could fix their “mistake” with a software update that gives the driver this adjustment. Aptera should too, assuming we have electronic steering.

    • Gabriel Kemeny

      Member
      June 16, 2022 at 5:31 am

      @Francis Giroux autonomous driving systems don’t care if the steering is “mechanical” or “electronic”, it just needs to be remotely controllable and eventually Aptera will have that. The lock to lock amount will likely be fixed, we just don’t know what the amount is or will be.

      • Francis Giroux

        Member
        June 17, 2022 at 9:24 am

        Gabriel Kemeny, how is a mechanical steering system controllable if its not by electronically controlled?

    • Gary Greenway

      Member
      June 16, 2022 at 7:14 am

      The June webinar showed a steering column with an electric assist motor. This can be used to steer the car with the differing autonomous options. However, since it rotates the steering wheel, it is not a true steer by wire system so the lock to lock ratio will not be variable.

      • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 3 days ago by  Gary Greenway.
  • Ray Holan

    Moderator
    June 17, 2022 at 5:11 am

    Hi, Bob. I too have had reservations about the yoke choice. I would have welcomed a more in-depth explanation of the yoke, but given the small number of questions addressed in the Q&A section of the livestream, I’m glad we got what we did from Jason H.

    Like you, a key question I have is how many turns lock-to-lock the yoke will require. I’ll get used to the yoke, but a variable steering ratio would make the yoke medicine go down more easily. A quicker rather than slower steering ratio would be an attractive feature in my book. I suspect that the final decision on whether it’s going to be variable ratio vs. “straight” steering like Tesla has not yet been made, despite Gary’s sharp-eyed observation about how the steering breadboarding appeared in the video that was shown during the recent livestream. I presume that is why we haven’t heard anything definitive or detailed yet. Kerbe2705 suggested this earlier in this thread.

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 2 days ago by  Ray Holan.
    • Bob Kirchner

      Member
      June 17, 2022 at 5:48 am

      There’s so much about Aptera that corresponds perfectly with my core values that I’ve pretty much reconciled myself to whatever misguided design decisions they make. I will accept a yoke, but if it’s screwed onto a steering column with more that 180 degrees of rotation I expect it to be a possible annoyance at best, a hazard at worst.

      It is also possible that the decision was not misguided but forced: that the essential feature of Aptera’s efficiency, low aerodynamic drag, backed them into a corner. Low drag requires video based side view mirrors, and those require screens. Maybe the shape of the fuselage limited the possible locations for the screens, and the only way to make the screens visible was to cut off the top of the steering wheel?

      I could support the decision it that was the reasoning behind it, but if that’s the case, I’d rather they just say so, rather than appealing to the alleged emotional superiority of the yoke “experience”.

  • Joshua Rosen

    Member
    June 17, 2022 at 7:15 am

    The yoke looks like it’s just squared off at the top, there is still something to grip. I suspect that it will be workable. Turning radius is more important in parking lots, I’m hoping for a tight radius but until someone drives the Gamma we won’t know.

    • Ray Holan

      Moderator
      June 17, 2022 at 9:22 am

      Good point about the turning radius, Joshua. In my use case, turning radius is very important.

    • Francis Giroux

      Member
      June 17, 2022 at 12:37 pm

      If the yoke is just the interface to a new steering system like the one described below, I think you’ll be amazed and pleased. If its just a yoke on a mechanical steering system i don’t blame everybody for complaining.

      https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2023-lexus-rz450e-steer-by-wire-yoke-review/

      • Ray Holan

        Moderator
        June 17, 2022 at 1:29 pm

        Thanks a heap for the reference to the Motor Trend article. VERY informative. Sure hope Aptera can implement the yoke in a similar fashion. I was especially excited when I hit this part of the article:

        “Lexus’ system has no user-selectable modes, instead varying the steering ratio in response to conditions. Parking-lot speeds require lots of steering lock but little movement of the yoke, while higher speeds require less response to given inputs. The system is set up so the yoke’s entire range of motion is a mere 300 degrees lock-to-lock, which is why it works where Tesla’s doesn’t: Hand-over-hand motion isn’t necessary (or even possible). If you want, say, full left lock, your right hand never rotates much past the 10 o’clock position. Naturally, that much steering angle with so little steering input would be a disaster at high speeds, hence Steer-by-Wire’s ability—nay, need—to alter the steering ratio infinitely and instantly.”

        I have no idea how feasible or costly this approach would be for Aptera to implement. If they don’t do something similar, I’m still an Aptera fanboy. But it would sure be sweet if their yoke was set up like this Lexus system;)

  • Jon Arryn

    Member
    June 17, 2022 at 9:36 am

    Blerg

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