Safety Pilot and Driver Assist features

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Safety Pilot and Driver Assist features

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Safety Pilot and Driver Assist features

  • Safety Pilot and Driver Assist features

     George Hughes updated 2 weeks, 3 days ago 42 Members · 117 Posts
  • Khanh Nguyen

    Member
    October 9, 2021 at 12:55 pm

    Does anyone have information on what kind of driver assist features would be available with the first releases (adaptive cruise control, lane following, etc…)? Thanks!

  • Doug Happ

    Member
    October 9, 2021 at 12:55 pm

    I just read about Level 2 autonomy capability (https://tinyurl.com/4fmembx4) and have a question. Would the Level 2 autonomy be of any assistance in getting into, or out of, a tight parking spot or single car garage door?

  • kerbe2705

    Member
    October 9, 2021 at 2:03 pm

    Not by definition, no: Automated parking features are another thing, entirely. Self-parking and automated parking features have been available in many different ICE vehicles for the past decade. “Autonomy” is about vehicles traveling along roads and highways.

  • David Maddon

    Member
    October 9, 2021 at 9:24 pm

    By definition no but in reality yes, it’s called a summons feature. It allows you to do just that just can’t use it in the road system in the cars that have it.

    • kerbe2705

      Member
      October 10, 2021 at 8:56 am

      “summoning” is not part of the autonomy standard, which was the question asked. It is a feature offered on some vehicles but, as most versions require someone to be standing nearby pushing a button, it’s more of a “remote control” thing….

  • Doug Happ

    Member
    October 9, 2021 at 9:46 pm

    @David Maddon ?? I don’t understand what you wrote. ??

    Sorry

    Doug

  • Paul Evans

    Member
    October 9, 2021 at 10:08 pm

    You may have seen commercials where a person walks up to their car only to find the some jerk has parked so close to the driver’s door that impossible to get into their car. So they get their key fob, press a button, and the car slowly backs out to the point that the driver is able to get in and drive away. That’s an example of a summons capability.

    I wouldn’t expect such a feature be available in the early days of delivery but could be made available via remote update similar to those made by Tesla. I’d be delighted if it’s available by the time my number rolls around, though.

    • kerbe2705

      Member
      October 10, 2021 at 8:59 am

      Considering, though, that the body of the Aptera is narrower than its front wheels it would seem nigh on to impossible for another vehicle to park so close to an Aptera as to render its doors inaccessible…

      • Doug Happ

        Member
        October 10, 2021 at 9:11 am

        Ken,

        I’m getting a lot of good information regarding Level 2 and related technologies. All useful. The hidden agenda in my question is pulling into and pulling out of my single car garage door. As the doorway is currently constructed I will have 4 inches to play with. I have considered a possible modification to the opening moulding/weatherstripping that might get me another inch!

        Backing out seems like it will be more challenging than pulling in. I was hoping that the vehicle might provide some whiz-bang technical help.

        Doug

    • Joshua Rosen

      Member
      October 11, 2021 at 8:56 am

      I’ve used Summon for exactly this purpose. Dumb summon, as opposed to Smart Summon which requires the car to navigate through a parking lot, shouldn’t be hard to implement as it doesn’t involve any navigation ability, the person holding the phone is doing everything.

  • Anna Santos de Dios

    Member
    October 29, 2021 at 2:27 pm

    Is the Safety Pilot upgrade the only way to get cruise control? I want this feature, but don’t care if it’s the adaptive version included with Safety Pilot, along with a number of other features that aren’t important to me. If all I want is basic cruise control, will it be included without Safety Pilot?

    • Mark Salyzyn

      Member
      September 17, 2022 at 7:31 am

      Yes, basic cruise control in the base model.

  • Curtis Cibinel

    Member
    October 29, 2021 at 4:23 pm

    You will probably need to ask directly to Aptera via the contact us. It’s unlikely anyone on the forum will have any information on ye old cruise control. I expect the level 2 package is probably in most people’s reservations.

  • Joshua Rosen

    Member
    October 29, 2021 at 5:18 pm

    It would be wise for them to make Safety Pilot a standard feature rather than an option. Standard ADAS makes a big difference to a cars safety rating. They will want to get an IIHS+ rating and they can’t do that unless ADAS is standard.

    • John Malcom

      Member
      October 29, 2021 at 6:18 pm

      Can you furnish us the reference to this requirement?

      If they did, then the price of each model would go up $1,300 ????

      Don’t think we would get a $1,300 break on our insurance costs since Aptera is not a car. If licensed and insured as a motor cycle/auto cycle in states that consider it a motorcycle/autocycle you would not get a Safety Pilot discount for a motor cycle I don’t think

  • Paul Schultz

    Member
    October 30, 2021 at 8:20 am

    I assume the Aptera will come with a forward facing camera as standard whether or not a person adds Safety Pilot as part of their vehicle build. This would make sense as adding Safety Pilot could be a simple software update if purchased separately after manufacturer. With these assumptions then adaptive cruise control without the need for Safety Pilot would be trivial. The vast majority of manufacturers are going to VOACC, visual-only adaptive cruise control. The software and processing required are now cost-effective and simpler than adding a separate forward radar device. So, ACC could, and should, be a standard feature as a minimum IMO.

    Paul

    • John Malcom

      Member
      October 30, 2021 at 9:09 am

      Only standard cruise control will come without safety pilot.

    • Curtis Cibinel

      Member
      October 30, 2021 at 9:30 am

      Aptera is probably not starting from scratch. Some of the $1300 is likely hardware for processing but a good chunk is probably to pay for the license for the technology. Its good that relatively off the shelf systems exist and it lets Aptera get to feature parity without hundreds of millions (or more) in unique development thats great. I suspect the system probably is visual only but nothing specific is disclosed and if a forward radar helps get the results as a consumer most wont care. It would be really interesting to know how many people opted for safetypilot it but I suspect it will be very high (perhaps 70+%).

      The infotainment computer (discussed in other threads has a most 2x A72 and 4x A53) is definitely not up to the challenge of AI labeling video. Achieving level 2 with video will need nearly the same processing power that they have in a Tesla (just way less advanced AI). I was curious about the power draw but assuming its under 100W (almost certain) it should be less than 2% impact on range even for an Aptera.

      The price for the Aptera is very low for what they provide. Between parts and manual labor one can only speculate on their profit per unit as they scale but I think its safe to say they wont have the 30% margin of tesla. If a feature is made standard it just increases the base price.

      • Paul Schultz

        Member
        October 30, 2021 at 9:51 am

        The comma.ai comma2 uses a circa 2016 cell phone with a snapdragon 821 and does very well for level 2 functionality. Using the Tesla chip specs is not necessarily the best comparison.

        • Curtis Cibinel

          Member
          October 30, 2021 at 10:22 am

          Comma.AI also have no hardware redundancy and far slower labeling. Software and hardware continue to advance and it partially comes down to how overbuilt the hardware needs to be. I would very much like ECC and redundant processing in my safety systems. Quickly labeling and braking is kinda the main purpose of safetypilot.

          Even if Aptera is using something similar in cost to Comma.Ai a bit of profit to test and integrate it as a factory option is quite reasonable.

          Tesla HW3 has 12xA72 and 2 AI accelerators to process over 2000 fps redundantly (kinda a good thing with safety). For comparison the Aptera infotainment only has 1-2xA72 and the snapdragon 821 a quad core which is a little faster than an A72.

  • IA -1

    Member
    December 16, 2021 at 10:43 am

    I don’t need the “Level 2 Safety Pilot”, but it would be nice for me to have the Lane Keeping & Emergency Braking features. Any info if these can be ordered separately in the future? Currently there is no option to do that on the Aptera/ReserveUpgrades page and the full “Safety Pilot” option is $1,300. Thank you for any info.

    • Carl Knapp Knapp

      Member
      December 16, 2021 at 10:53 am

      Safety pilot includes “We will offer Safety Pilot with Level 2 autonomy capability, which includes facial tracking, lane keep, adaptive cruise, and emergency braking.” according to line 115 from Aptera’s FAQ spreadsheet located at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11Of3g6RYqstbXecs7j2UHHd_b8s5MebxEs-ZwkyMiiQ/edit#gid=1847163171

    • Curtis Cibinel

      Member
      December 16, 2021 at 11:03 am

      The definition of level 2 is very vague. Safety Pilot as I understand it is lane keeping, adaptive cruise control and emergency breaking only. It could actually be argued that these features could be considered level 3 since maintaining your lane and not crashing into anyone infront of you on the highway for hundreds of miles would quality as “perform all aspects of the driving task under some circumstances”. I consider this very reasonable for $1300 regardless of label. Tesla FSD is working toward level 3-5 which all bleed together in this stage of development. The levels and practical features all are very grey from 1-4; only 0 (model T) and 5 (perfect autonomous) are truly clear.

      https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/levels-of-autonomous-driving-explained

      • IA -1

        Member
        December 17, 2021 at 4:55 am

        Yes. What I was trying to say is I need Level 1, only lane keeping and emergency braking, I don’t need the car to drive me somewhere. I guess it will be either the entire “Safety Pilot” package or nothing. Lot of other cars have the lane keeping and emergency braking features included at their base packages without any additional cost.

        • Carl Knapp Knapp

          Member
          December 17, 2021 at 7:13 am

          I recently bought a new vehicle and found many with standard FCW (forward collision warning) and LDW (lane departure warning) offered in Level 1. I wanted in between Level 1 and Level 2 like you which offered AEB (automatic emergency braking) and LKA (lane-keeping assistance) which I found only as a $3000+ option or I had to go with a higher package in the car’s model offering. These two sites may help explain the difference in key active safety systems and who offers what in Level 1. https://www.consumerreports.org/car-safety/cars-with-advanced-safety-systems-a7292621135/ https://www.consumerreports.org/autonomous-driving/levels-of-car-automation/

        • kerbe2705

          Member
          December 17, 2021 at 5:41 pm

          Emergency Braking is part of the Level 0 standard – lane keep assist OR adaptive cruise control is Level 1. Level 2 is lane keep assist AND adaptive cruise control.

        • Jonah Jorgenson

          Member
          June 27, 2022 at 5:58 pm

          This is the definition of Level I ADAS.

          “This is the lowest level of automation. The vehicle features a single automated system for driver assistance, such as steering or accelerating (cruise control). Adaptive cruise control, where the vehicle can be kept at a safe distance behind the next car, qualifies as Level 1 because the human driver monitors the other aspects of driving such as steering and braking. This is the lowest level of automation.”

          With Level I you get only ONE driver assist. (Lane keeping, or Adaptive Cruise control, or emergency breaking)

          SafetyPilot will be a Level II assist (When it is implemented) Until that time Aptera comes only with standard cruise control like we have had for years on ICE vehicles.

      • Richard Harris

        Member
        September 16, 2022 at 12:08 pm

        I think $1300 is more than reasonable for those safety features, insurance savings or not. We have it on our 2018 Subaru, and it has become a natural part of our driving. I need to actively remind myself when driving my 2001 GMC Sieraa that it does NOT have ACC, or any of the other Level 2 features. In my mind, rather than making you less attentive to what’s around you, it makes your more so, since you don’t need to constantly monitor as much. My $.02.

  • Gary Greenway

    Member
    April 2, 2022 at 1:27 pm

    Right now, there’s only a wish list. After production begins, Aptera is likely to ship with whatever they have created so far with applicable hardware pre-installed for high priority features. New software features can be added over the air as they develop them.

  • IA -1

    Member
    April 2, 2022 at 1:39 pm

    As per the Aptera reservation page the cost for the Safety Pilot will be $1,300:

    “Travel is easy as Aptera drives itself to your location with Level 2 autonomy capability, which includes facial tracking, lane keep, adaptive cruise, and emergency braking.”

    I have included the Safety Pilot in my reservation, I just hope they will include lane change warning, if there is a vehicle next to you. I don’t need anything additional, and the price is right.

  • Boz O’Clown

    Member
    May 6, 2022 at 12:29 pm

    I’m excited that Aptera is offering the Safety Pilot upgrade. Long trips should be a lot less monotonous with its facial tracking, lane keep, adaptive cruise and emergency braking. It remains to be seen what it will and won’t do.

    I’m thinking I may be allowed to set it and forget it on long Interstate highway travel. Personally I would have little interest in any other application.

    I ordered the 400 mile version which, at 75 mph and with A/C, should give me about 220 or so miles between recharges (recharge to 80% and then run it down to 20%). Or a little over three hours of travel, then (I’m guessing) about 30 minutes on a DC fast charger at 50 kwh.

    Call it wild speculation or an educated guess, but exciting.

    • This reply was modified 6 months, 3 weeks ago by  Boz O'Clown. Reason: Add notifications of any replies
    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.
  • Steven G. Bueche

    Member
    May 6, 2022 at 12:50 pm

    I’m not real sure if the safety pilot will be in the first run cars. They haven’t spoken much on it and have yet to fully explain some of the electronics. If fact they’re just now running the test Aptera to prove the solar capabilities. I know there are computer simulations but, the real world testing is still on going.

    • OZ (It’s OZ, Just OZ)

      Member
      May 6, 2022 at 1:05 pm

      Steven, you are correct, safety pilot will not be on the earliest vehicles, but the hardware will be in place, and it will be added with an OTA update for those that have ordered it.

      • Benjamin Dreidel

        Member
        May 6, 2022 at 8:57 pm

        Will the hardware be in all the vehicles sold or just the ones that buy the upgrade?

  • kerbe2705

    Member
    May 6, 2022 at 10:23 pm

    I’m not certain why Aptera is including facial tracking as part of Safety Pilot. Level 2 autonomous systems aren’t “self-driving” – they combine Adaptive Cruise Control with Lane Keep Assist. Most LKA systems won’t auto-negotiate more than a 10° turn, requiring the driver to steer the vehicle around the curve.

    Unless, of course, they’re planning for Safety Pilot to be a “hands-free” system with the steering yoke having neither capacitive or acceleration sensors…

    I do a great deal of Interstate driving and rely upon Honda’s Level 2 “Sensing Suite” in my Clarity PHEV to make the experience much more comfortable and stress-free. The only issue I have with vision-based LKA is that it stumbles when lane markings are indistinct, unclear or missing: In other words, it needs to see the painted lines – it can’t determine the difference between the edge of the road surface and the shoulder without them.

    • Paul Schultz

      Member
      May 7, 2022 at 12:41 pm

      Most OEM implementations of LKA and ACC don’t really qualify for full level 2 designation. They are more of a 1.5 to 1.8. Also, the difference between level 2 and 3 is a substantial hurdle. I have a comma 3 and run OpenPilot in the expressway. It stays very centered even on aggressive curves. I pass other vehicles without worry. Comma.ai calls their implementation level 2+. They are currently working on an end-to-end driving experience with recognition of traffic lights, stop signs, etc.

      If SafetyPilot ends up with a level 2+ implementation it would be well worth it. I have a 125-mile daily round trip commute with about 100 miles on the expressway. Having the comma.ai/OpenPilot really makes the drive so much more relaxing.

      • John Malcom

        Member
        May 7, 2022 at 3:29 pm

        It has not been announced who the safety pilot supplier will be. I am sure a major selection criteria for it will be the ease of integration into the Aptera software and hardware architecture and compatibility with the cameras selected for Aptera as we do understand that it will be visual based and not sensor based.

        I believe that Open Pilot requires a piece of proprietary hardware to be installed. It’s extra weight and cost may disqualify it from consideration.

        OZ has posted that it will not be a part of early production Aptera but an after purchase OTA implementation.

        • This reply was modified 6 months, 3 weeks ago by  John Malcom. Reason: Correct spelling
        • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.
        • OZ (It’s OZ, Just OZ)

          Member
          May 7, 2022 at 3:49 pm

          You know I’m trying to remember/find the video where this was mentioned.. The first one I looked at (That I thought it was in.) was referring to a “sentry mode” instead. I’m almost positive they covered the safety pilot as well at some point. (Gotta organize my notes.)

          • kerbe2705

            Member
            May 7, 2022 at 9:01 pm

            At one point, very early-on, Chris and Steve said that Aptera was working with a “developer in Japan” to create the Safety Pilot software.

      • kerbe2705

        Member
        May 7, 2022 at 9:09 pm

        @Paul Schultz Except that, according to the SAE standards, there are no “intermediate” levels: A vehicle meets a standard or it doesn’t – there’s no “almost”. If a company chooses to claim otherwise, well, it’s just marketing lingo.

        • Paul Schultz

          Member
          May 8, 2022 at 5:10 am

          No company makes the claim of being between levels. But, instead of claiming of achieving level 3 as I believe Tesla has hinted in some of their marketing, comma.ai is more realistic in stating that the implementations comma.ai and Tesla will achieve is more in a “2 plus” realm. No one was changing the SAE standard. I appreciate that comma is not overhyping their hardware/software. Comma has stated that its goal is to maximize the level 2 experience. Level 3 is technically much harder to achieve while maintaining a required high level of safety. Any claims of achieving level 3 (Tesla?) should be considered as the marketing hype at this stage of ADAS development.

          I have over 60K miles of driving on my comma/OP set up with my Chevy Volt. It has worked very well for me. I will get SafetyPilot as I want an integrated solution for my Aptera. I hope that they can achieve the same level of comfort and safety that my comma/OP has provided.

          One area I hope would be borrowed by SafetyPilot from comma/OP is the driver monitoring as it is very good. But, this requires an interior camera facing the driver. I don’t recall seeing that as a plan in any Aptera specs. Did I miss it?

  • Norman Roberts

    Moderator
    May 7, 2022 at 7:03 pm

    I am thinking Aptera may use Auto/Safety Pilot from Chery Automotive. Their agreement which was completed in Jan 2022 requires Aptera to pay $2,000,000 and then 258.00 royalty for each vehicle that uses their tech or parts ??

    Chery has the hardware and software

    • Curtis Cibinel

      Member
      May 7, 2022 at 8:34 pm

      Good insight. I’ll definitely be looking into the specifics. Here is a video (animation) of some of the Chery ADAS technologies. If we get all of these features I would be thrilled (in addition to the fairly typical virtual top down view for parking – no idea what that feature is generally called but I love it).

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_PXqTTG714

      Note: The Chery Tiggo 8 Pro is similar so reviews of this implementation would be the best real world example of what we might be able to expect if the Aptera is using essentially the same platform; unfortunately the most in depth seem to be in Chinese and Hindi.

      • John Malcom

        Member
        May 8, 2022 at 6:17 am

        Comprehensive!

        Looks like it relies on sensors that Aptera may not have if Aptera is camera only based. Similar to functionality in my Model 3

        • Curtis Cibinel

          Member
          May 8, 2022 at 10:26 am

          Did anyone from Aptera ever say Aptera ADAS (SafetyPilot) would be vision only like Tesla? It seems a radar makes some of these features far simpler. I seem to recall it being fairly clearly said that anything past level 2 isn’t in the plan (cant remember when) so if that is the case Aptera has no need for advanced AI neural nets like Tesla FSD; each of the features is relatively simple from a sensor data to action perspective (unlike building an AI to drive with super advanced image processing). The sign recognizing and lane assist are the only vision based feature and is very simple compared to recognizing literally every other possible thing a car could encounter.

          Obviously use of Chery ADAS technology is speculation but given they have no signs of vision only technology and that animation is very new I don’t think we can assume a vision only approach.

          • John Malcom

            Member
            May 8, 2022 at 10:40 am

            A fair question.

            I remember the statement from the old forum days that the SafetyPilot would be camera based. That was a year and four months ago maybe before they really knew what they wanted to do. I have asked a SafetyPilot question directly to Aptera recently and have not received a reply for some time. Mostly I get responses quickly. So either they don’t know at this time or don’t wish to share what they know. I think radar sensors are essential for some of the common Level II features, but I certainly am far from knowledgeable. that is why I was interested in your views

          • kerbe2705

            Member
            May 8, 2022 at 2:42 pm

            Yes – Chris said more than one time that Aptera would have a vision-only system: I recall one statement during a webinar and another in a video interview.

            • Curtis Cibinel

              Member
              May 8, 2022 at 3:02 pm

              If that is the case it is likely Chery has nothing to do with SafetyPilot and they have another vendor in mind. Alternatively Chery may have vision only tech they haven’t incorporated into a released vehicle yet but it seems more likely to have nothing to do with the Royalty / Payments Norman identified. Chery must be providing something significant to justify a Royalty that large.

            • Paul Schultz

              Member
              May 8, 2022 at 5:36 pm

              Vendors are going to vision-only as it can perform better than radar and reduces complexity/price by eliminating the forward long radar unit that needs to be behind a radar compatible grill/face. Once the image processing firmware is in place a vehicle can have several ADAS features with the already-in-place front-facing camera.

    • John Malcom

      Member
      May 7, 2022 at 9:00 pm

      This makes a lot of sense. They have a mature system that works well and is well regarded in their vehicles. Not sure how compatible it would be with Aptera HW and SW architecture and how it would fit with the $1,300 charge on the configuration app.

      Curtis, with his expertise, can investigate and report for us if Aptera does not want to weigh in

      • This reply was modified 6 months, 3 weeks ago by  John Malcom. Reason: Correct spelling
      • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.
    • kerbe2705

      Member
      May 7, 2022 at 9:03 pm

      Can you quote chapter and verse on this information? I’ve never seen it mentioned anywhere before…

  • Thomas French

    Member
    May 8, 2022 at 6:33 am

    I hope this can be part of the first orders, if they put in the cameras, then later add the electronics.

    My Tesla model S 2013 had OP, and I made pedal pcb’s with smd tech, for the community to use the OP. I have to say the OP device handled curves much better than the Model Y 2022 Tesla I had. Waiting for the Aptera to become the next best thing.

    • Paul Kirchner

      Member
      May 8, 2022 at 7:41 am

      Ok.

      What’s OP?

      What’s pedal pcb’s?

      What’s smd tech?

      • Paul Schultz

        Member
        May 8, 2022 at 9:11 am

        OP = OpenPilot: an opensource advanced driver assist system produced by comma.ai

        Pedal PCBs = An add-on small device to allow control of acceleration/deceleration by OpenPilot. This is not needed by all vehicles, only some.

        SMD = service mount device. A method for soldering small IC chip components to a circuit board.

        • Hale Marine

          Member
          May 8, 2022 at 3:52 pm

          Open Pilot would be great option for Aperta

  • John Malcom

    Member
    May 11, 2022 at 5:44 pm

    A lot of good discussion on this topic in this thread. I asked Aptera directly and this is the response I received:

    Hi John!

    Thanks for asking about this! We plan to offer Safety Pilot with Level 2 autonomy capability, which includes facial tracking, lane keep, adaptive cruise, and emergency braking. We have not yet announced what will be available in the first production vehicles. Aptera is working towards a full self-driving model, although those capabilities will be released in stages. As we continue to move toward production, we will be sure to share this information with you on our website! Thank you for asking.

    We are talking with several different partners about what form of autopilot we will use and we have some base hardware to work from now. The team is looking to make a decision after testing over the next few months. If you have any questions, please let me know!

    What this says to me:

    – Boiler plate for configuration tool for a description

    – Haven’t picked a vendor yet still looking

    – Not sure what (If any functionality) will be in first production

    – They have some hardware which constrains the solution depending on what that hardware is

    Implied message: don’t call us we will call you😉

  • Hale Marine

    Member
    May 13, 2022 at 4:27 am

    Will Aperta be compatible with Comma.ai’s OPEN PILOT?

    With both companies being from Southern California, I’m thinking it would be a great opportunity for both companies.

  • John Malcom

    Member
    May 13, 2022 at 4:50 am

    The answer is we don’t know.

    Aptera has not chosen a Safety Pilot partner yet. We know that Aptera has made the decision that Safety Pilot will be camera based and that they have some hardware they will be assessing and working with during their process of vendor evaluation.

    Deleted part of original post after examining their sight. The current SW is free. Open Pilot does require some additional hardware that would need to be modified to work in an Aptera. Possible candidate. Keep your fingers crossed?

    • This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by  John Malcom.
    • This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by  John Malcom. Reason: Restructured
    • This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by  John Malcom.
    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.
  • my_discord_number_is_0328 bloody stupid

    Member
    May 13, 2022 at 6:52 am

    even if its not on, maybe comma ai can learn from human driving in aptera, it doesnt need to track location to learn. when self driving becomes a thing, if they can identify a political target in a car i wouldnt be suprised if they would do things to people, blame it on them wanting to drive manually bc distrust or he likes driving +drunk. other spyware could be checked for too.

  • Paul Schultz

    Member
    May 13, 2022 at 6:17 pm

    If the Aptera comes with lane keep assist, and has electronic steering _AND_ they allow access to the CAN bus without adding a security gateway to block access to some of the steering and braking CAN bus commands then yes. The comma hardware is not vehicle specific. A port of the OpenPilot software would need to be done with a tuning of the driving parameters (steering, braking) for the Aptera. The open-source community working on OpenPilot has supported many car makes/models.

    I expect someone to port OpenPilot for the Aptera. Then, having comma hardware would be an alternative to purchasing Aptera’s Safety Pilot. As a reference, some Tesla owners opt to run comma/OP instead of buying the Tesla FSD. Yep, there is an OP port for Tesla.

    The original iterations of the comma hardware, EON, EON Gold, and the comma2 were built using a Chinese cell phone (LeEco Le Pro 3). The current version of the hardware, comma3, is built using a complete in-house hardware design without a cell phone as a base. It has 2 forward-facing cameras and one fisheye 360 rearward facing camera. With one small internal device mounted at the center of the windshield, they achieve a 360 view around the vehicle.

    The comma hardware simply has a mount at the center of the windshield. I expect an Aptera port to happen. I have 3 iterations of the comma hardware. I am currently using the comma3 in my Chevy Volt and have a 125-mile daily round-trip commute. It is amazing what comma.ai has accomplished considering they achieved an ‘above level 2 ADAS’ using a cell phone!

    Paul

    • Hale Marine

      Member
      May 13, 2022 at 6:27 pm

      Thanks Paul, lots of good information. We own a Model Y and I wasn’t aware open pilot was compatible with Tesla.

    • John Malcom

      Member
      May 13, 2022 at 8:04 pm

      I think the issue with comma3, the current version vs. Aptera will be the price. The comma3 hardware starts at $1999. Apteras’s safety pilot is priced around $1300 (Current pricing)

      • Paul Schultz

        Member
        May 13, 2022 at 8:24 pm

        comma.ai is currently working on another comma3 model with a reduced cost. They definitely went over the top on high-end components with the comma3, particularly the high-cost OLED display. The “comma 3S” as it has been dubbed will probably be competitive with the OEM cost of Safety Pilot. And, if comma2 level hardware is sufficient, there is Chinese clone hardware that gets OP running for ~$300-400 (Mr. One shop on Aliexpress). At this moment the function of OP on a comma2 is basically identical to the comma3.

        comma.ai is continuing all OP development work with the comma3 platform. They will no longer be enhancing the functionality of the comma2. The comma2 doesn’t have the CPU power nor the 360 view that the c3 has. Any further OP enhancements beyond the current version will be focused on comma3 capabilities. So, the official comma2 branch of OP will only get minor bug fixes from this point forward. I suspect the open-source OP community will continue to provide some of the new features from future OP updates for the comma2 platform.

        • This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by  Paul Schultz.
        • John Malcom

          Member
          May 14, 2022 at 6:06 am

          Thanks for the additional information!

          I am sure Aptera engineering knows the specifics of the solutions they are evaluating and will pick the one that provides the best value. Rather than adding an additional piece of processing hardware, I believe their intent would be to use the processing already available in the Aptera architecture and display controls/ feedback on the existing UI screen if possible.

          A big advantage of the comma.ai product is you do not need to have your hands on the wheel all of the time like in my Tesla Model 3.

  • Konijnerd the Great

    Member
    June 14, 2022 at 10:42 am

    According to the AMA, l2 functionality is not going to happen in the first production vehicles.

    That’s really sad as l2 is nowadays basic functionality available on entry level cars. Distance-set cruise control, automatic parking, lane assist… These are then not happening anymore?

    Watch this part of the AMA:

  • Jonathan Reni

    Member
    June 14, 2022 at 10:56 am

    I think its possible that he was referring to the first 1,000 vehicles here.

    • Jeff

      Member
      June 14, 2022 at 12:07 pm

      Yeah, I think he was pretty clear that they don’t intend to have it ready by launch, but they do intend to offer it *eventually*.

      I doubt they even know at this point what the timing would be on that.

    • Curtis Cibinel

      Member
      June 14, 2022 at 12:25 pm

      They also said it was an addon. This may just be a classification, but it is also possible that they can addon the feature to an existing delivered vehicle. I’m hoping they can also do similar with the sound upgrade and others since my referrals will obviously get delivery after me and I have no need for several dozen tee-shirts.

    • Jonah Jorgenson

      Member
      June 16, 2022 at 9:33 am

      As usual lots of speculation. But, no official announcements. I am sure when it is sorted out they will let us know. Since there is still a lot of development to be done before production, no need to worry about it.

      I am sure, that when it is finished and available, all will be offered the opportunity to get it and that it will work fine as they are taking the time to get it right no matter what the solution turns out to be.

      I believe the only thing we know (Not believe or speculate) is that it will be camera based. Pretty common approach and used on Tesla vehicles. Although I do not have Self Drive activated on my Model 3, I do have the hardware for it if I want to pay the 12K to use it.

      The NHSA has started investigating the large number of accidents with self driving technology enabled now so we do want Aptera to take the time for it to work well/Safely even if it is delivered post production to the owners that want it. Also, we don’t a lot of liability cases for Aptera to address if their ADAS Level II is defective in any way.

      Not having SafetyPilot at the time of delivery does not at all detract from the great efficiency features of the vehicle, the ones I consider most important and the reasons I reserved the Aptera in the first place. I did order it. But, I like to drive and believe driving an Aptera will be a lot of fun so am having second thoughts about using it if it is installed on my Aptera.

      • This reply was modified 5 months, 2 weeks ago by  Jonah Jorgenson. Reason: removed format markings
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