MemberDecember 8, 2021 at 7:25 am
Would you consider paying $1,000 extra to get your aptera early? Not faster shipping but buying your way up the order list. How about $5,000 or $10,000. it may give you a sinking feeling in your stomach but this kind of thing does happen. Demand massively outweighs supply and all to often the second hand market wreaps the rewards. Instead of paying cash would anyone be willing to sign a contract binding your purchase and making your aptera yours for 5 years without being able to sell it? Another option could be a contract for long term investment into aptera stocks. I am expecting everyone to dislike these paths but if you were contacted by aptera what would you do?
MemberDecember 8, 2021 at 8:04 am
Goodness gracious Riley! Let me be the first of “everyone to dislike these paths”! And absolutely no, I would under no circumstances take Aptera up on such an offer. What you’re proposing is that it all depends on the size of one’s resources, not on one’s legitimate place in line. In your scenario…”All is well – I can just buy my way to the top of the list”! But, whoops, turns out Joe’s pockets are even deeper than mine and now I’ve been knocked out of first place. And, whoops again, Mary’s got even deeper pockets than Joe, and down we all go another peg…ad nauseam! While we can all worry about supply chain delays/cost overruns pushing back our hoped for delivery date, let’s please at least keep this a democratic process! If Aptera wanted to fail in the most epic way possible, they should absolutely take you up on this idea!
MemberDecember 8, 2021 at 8:04 am
I have Order Number 10026; which should be the 26th produced Aptera Paradigm Edition (400 mile range).
What are you offering me to trade Order Numbers?
MemberDecember 8, 2021 at 9:33 am
Bruce, what you truly have is invoice 10026 for a Paradigm. Unless every invoice before you was for a single Paradigm you will likely be a lower number than the 26th one. (There is at least one Paradigm + with a lower number than yours, and probably some non paradigm/custom orders as well, not even touching on the possibility of any non U.S. orders. Additional variables could be multiple car orders on the same invoice.)
MemberDecember 8, 2021 at 8:11 am
Personally, I’m not willing to pay my way up the food chain, but I would respect the company for using that as a means to manage supply chain and revenue streams. Not easy being a startup and while I wouldn’t like it as a buyer, I’m ok if it helps Aptera be successful in the launch hump. I’m not clear on the wisdom of a 5 year ownership contract unless you are thinking about people “flipping” cars at a profit by depleting inventory. If that is a case, I’d be more inclined to support an order limit. If Aptera will have that kind of problem, then they would be underpricing the car. I would not be ok with an ownership duration contract. I’m equally not supportive of connecting the product purchase with investment requirements. I think Aptera already does this the right way by incentivizing a discount if you invest over $10k. Making it a requirement would not help any parties from my perspective.
MemberDecember 8, 2021 at 8:26 am
I have no moral objection to someone paying to jump ahead of me in the line, in fact I welcome it. I don’t want the first car off the line, I’d much rather wait for them to work out the major bugs before I get mine. The rule of thumb for new cars is to wait a year before you buy one, I might be willing to reduce that to six months in this case but not less than that.
As a practical matter I don’t see where it would be worth it to anyone. The reservation fee is very small which means that there are a lot of people on the list who are merely curious about the car, the actual conversion rate of reservations to purchases is likely to be only 10-20%, that’s a WAG but does anyone think it will be higher than that?. The real queue is therefore only a couple of thousand which might be a year, the time I’d like to wait anyway.
MemberApril 21, 2022 at 3:51 pm
I agree with the assessment that the actual purchase rate will be low. When Aptera calls up the preorder people, there will be a lot of “This isn’t a good time for me”, “I had to buy a new vehicle 4 months ago”, and things like that.
Initial production will most likely be very slow. Even in big auto plants like Jefferson North, they only produce a few cars/day at first. When the first Grand Cherokee was produced, they only built 1000/month or so the first 6 months. The Aptera production won’t be as complicated as the Grand Cherokee, but there will likely be only 1-2 built/day at first (or less). This will be to work out the best way to put the car together and do extensive quality control on each car built. Once these initial problems are worked out, production will increase and even if they only get to 10/day, that works out to 300/month. Everyone on the list with the 400 mile option today will likely get their car built in just a few months at such a rate.
Personally, getting one of the early ones is probably a mixed blessing. They are likely to have more issues that ones assembled once everything is running smoothly. Although companies usually make such things right, you have the time and hassle of such things. Being a little later in line will also give you time to get feedback from the early owners about the real-life experience of living with the Aptera. People paying to jump the line may be making their lives more difficult.
MemberDecember 8, 2021 at 9:11 am
id consider it.
MemberDecember 8, 2021 at 9:22 am
I figure if you invest $1,000,000 or more you could probably get an early copy.
MemberDecember 8, 2021 at 9:56 am
If Aptera were to contact me with an offer like one of these, it would definitely leave a very sour taste in my mouth — it’s almost a bait-and-switch tactic. If there’s a way they can do it without others’ places in line dropping, then maybe that’d be okay. For example, if #156 cancels their reservation, then maybe Aptera could offer the #156 spot for a premium. But I would rather see everyone else just move up in the line.
MemberDecember 8, 2021 at 11:07 am
This is a hard decision. On the one hand I want it sooner and I don’t mind paying for it, but I don’t want to jump the line. Maybe if there’s a cancelled order or something that they are offering I could see the justification there… I think it makes more sense to just buy it then resell it for more on the used market. Then Joe and Mary with the $$$$$$$$ can get the Aptera sooner and we don’t technically do any queue cheating. Although if said Aptera went to the next person in line then we’d all get it sooner.
MemberDecember 8, 2021 at 11:51 am
I absolutely dislike companies and people who change the rules of the game once the game has started. If Aptera came up with that idea of charching money in order to climb up in the delivery list (I can not imagine they would, as far as I understand such a business model is just not part of their mindset), I certainly would walk away and look for a less efficient but still affordable EV. Simple like that.
MemberDecember 8, 2021 at 1:09 pm
WOW, I think you’ve touched a nerve here???? They have no dealerships that may be likely to add large markups, and would most likely lose a great deal of credibility and trust if they tried to do it of their own volition so it’s unlikely anything like that would happen. I can only hope Joshua’s guess as to the purchase conversion percentage is close as I was late to the party. I am starting to have dreams about having my car…I can’t wait!
MemberDecember 13, 2021 at 5:51 am
This is one of the things that have turned me off on Archimoto and their FUV. I did a preorder for their vehicle and was well aware that they were going to deliver vehicles not only on order sequence but also by territories. The started out in their area and would expand from there. That seemed fair and understandable and knowing that I was located far from their headquarters I knew I and many others would have to wait for them to expand into my area. Then we get news that they are delivering groups of vehicles to rental companies far from their facility. I feel like I have been passed over because I only ordered one. Will not be getting a FUV and will be cancelling my order. For a company or an individual to not keep their word and just chase the money over prior commitments is a sign that they are not true and honest and makes you wonder what else they are not telling the truth about. When I placed an order for an Aptera and was given an order number with an estimated production date I expect them to fulfill their promise to me and not just kick me to the curb because some one with more money is willing to pay more for what I ordered and waited for.
MemberDecember 13, 2021 at 8:53 pm
I don’t think Riley even has a reservation. His questions are pointless. I believe he is posing these questions to simply stir things up.
MemberDecember 13, 2021 at 9:46 pm
I agree, seems to be a troll. Just ignore him, last thing you want is to acknowledge people like that. 😉
MemberDecember 14, 2021 at 9:47 am
Cone on Riley, we’ve seen you under that bridge so many times…????
MemberDecember 13, 2021 at 11:46 pm
It has been stated that the first production units will all be the 40 KW versions, so if you want to have a chance to get one in 2022 or even early 2023 this is what you need to order. Also it makes sense that the Ambassadors who are eager to let people see, touch, ride in and possibly test drive there Aptera, should be the best way to get more people interested in Aptera. So it would make sense that they would be given some priority. I am sure there will be some reasons for a few others to receive priority.
It is good that Aptera is being fairly open about these things. As I was frustrated with GM’s hidden agenda’s on where Volts were sent to. They prioritized deliveries of fully equipped units and those for the east and west coast’s. I was unable to purchase one in Michigan (where they were made) without paying $2,000 to $4,000 over ticker price. So I had to purchase from a dealer in New York, to get one at list price.
MemberDecember 14, 2021 at 1:10 am
The first production units are the Paradigm and Paradigm +. These are 40KW vehicles.
Other than these “Special” vehicles we don’t know what the plan for production distribution is. Speculating about it is counter productive as it gives the forum members what amounts to false information which generates false expectations. The best approach is to wait until the Aptera production plan is completed and announced.
Aptera has given no indication that “Extra” money will buy the way up a waiting list nor has Aptera given any indication of favoritism in the distribution of vehicles during production. We can be assured that when Aptera has figured out the best and most equitable way to distribute vehicles that they will publish that to us.
There are just too many unknowns at this time. Our own logic without all of the “Facts” is not sufficient to figure out what the distribution plan will be.
MemberDecember 14, 2021 at 9:45 am
John/David (Edit), Yeah, this is my opinion, but it does make a lot of sense. Aptera described the first four production runs as 400-250-600-1.000. Anyone who thinks they will be producing every preorder up to and including current date, in that order, is living in a dreamland. They have not stated the size of the first production runs, but I find it unlikely for them to be greater than 200 each, if that much. If you are reserving now choose what you like, the battery size is very unlikely to effect your delivery date in any way that we could surmise. John, Paradigm Plusses are 1,000 range and all of the info they have sent to me on it, when stated, says the fourth production run. (Since they also have sent me info stating I will be one the first, I feel this supports my belief in fairly small first production runs.
MemberDecember 14, 2021 at 1:52 am
If you invest, say $100,000. into shares then moving up the line doesn’t offend me in such a circumstance, offering or instance.
I could buy into the logic.
Buy two or more Aptera and also move up. ????????
Priority to all fully loaded, fully optioned & accessorized versions too.
YES, I’m stoking the fire in this thread.
Oh, that AND… first priority to ALL Canadian preorders regardless of everything else as well. ???? Bonus points just because we’re “good people”, eh?!
Then I woke up; tears on my pillow.
MemberDecember 14, 2021 at 10:53 am
First priority has to be to Aptera employees followed by people who are close to San Diego. The first cars off the line are going to be buggy, being able to bring it to the plant when something goes wrong is important. After that I’d suggest a beta program. People who are willing to be beta testers should go to the head of the line. Not everyone should be accepted as a beta tester. Beta testers will need to demonstrate that they have some level of technical expertise and that they understand that their vehicle will have faults and that it’s their job to report those problems.
MemberDecember 14, 2021 at 11:51 am
I like this idea a lot! Thanks for describing my perspective on automobiles!
MemberApril 20, 2022 at 10:59 am
Isn’t capitalism wonderful!
Good discussion of the potential market dynamics following the start of production. Sounds like coming from someone with experience. Maybe I should get my ducks in order to selloff my early reservation number.😉
MemberJanuary 4, 2022 at 7:44 pm
You are absolutely right. The company will have some priorities to place the available vehicles in places they can maximize their marketing impact.
The conflicts explored are inevitable with any product that will be in demand during times of scarcity … it is called the free market and in that marketplace, people seek to be wheeler-dealers. It is human nature.
That someone gains access to early reservations that were made it will be because the person who might choose not to make the purchase actually makes the purchase at a third party’s behest – there being an exchange of funding above what Aptera charged for the vehicle occurring at a time when Aptera no longer has an ownership interest in the purchased vehicle, the amount additional is simply none of their business.
As you look forward you need to know that in any market where there is a product being produced for sale at sometime in the future, the basics for a futures market by definition exists.
Oh, and if you have that futures market and the deliveries and sales are made at the stated list prices, then I suspect such a futures market will arise and those who hold reservations will see the value of those reservations fluctuate from roughly $70-100 (the cost of the reservation) to a figures somewhat higher based on the date of earliest delivery which will likely value by region.
Because of the reservation is an obligation of Aptera and maintaining its integrity, Aptera, as stated above has the legitimate option to produce and distribute Aptera for the reservation holding audience until such time all reservations have either been converted to sales or the funds returned. That said, they would be able to exempt specific VINs to internal marketing efforts.
Then there are the other exceptions. I know it is pretty easy to incorporate a poll into a website forum so imagine twenty reservation holders – and to keep interest booming, ten Aptera deliveries are offered to the community to assign delivery of those making their case to the ‘community.’
All the guys on the forum with high reservation numbers will come on and plea with everyone else to ‘vote for them to get an early delivery.’ Yep, three or four of the folks pleading are oldies like me saying, “hey man, we’re short … give us a break.’ Another four will feature reasoning like I want to sell for a big profit and I need the money, then a likely winner shows saying I need it now so I can take my fiancée on a camping honeymoon after my wedding next month, and on and on with much better narratives. That happening in public, transparently is the type of story the morning shows doing a business segment will eat up.
Bottom line, a product restricted market is inevitable and anytime demand exceeds supply, there will opportunities for those who have the product that is in demand. I suspect if Aptera were to put out a paper that emphasizes that existing reservations are the only path to get a ‘new one’ from Aptera.
That white paper may speculate as to production and greater roll out by establishing regional and even International pools. Say the pool in the southeast (ATL) on 1/1/22 had 790 reservations. The SCAL plant will ship only x cars to the SE but will, once there are 5000 reservations in the region, initiate the regional assembly plant which will begin delivering Aptera in the region on a reservation position basis (within the realm of reason … i.e. a run of 40kw models followed by …) Oh, and it would be sooooo cool if the reservations lists and production dates were public.
If you could ‘manage’ the reservation list – say allowing me to trade my high # reservation with someone with a lot lower number.
The one thing folks should know for sure is if there is a market for early reservations, the conversion rate will rise and the popularity of the vehicle will take off, resulting in more and more reservations.
Let’s be clear.
Aptera and Ford are both manufacturing companies who sell cars to their direct customers for prices based on SMRP … which the manufacturer’s estimate and marketing judgment of what the car (or truck) should sell for in competition with other manufacturers. These manufacturers will sell for that price.
The difference is that Ford’s direct customers are its dealer network which like most such dealer networks are on a never-ending quest for more profit and get it through fees, special fees and whatever they can get from the people buying their product.
Aptera can treat each of its customers with the same respect FMC pays their dealers and if there are profits to be made, those profits go to the customer.
When consumers figure that out, they’ll understand it up to them to do what is right for them and that is a public good.
MemberApril 20, 2022 at 10:47 am
I agree that the first vehicles will be buggy and that employees should be first on the list, but as beta testers. Delivery around SD/LA good for the reason you state.
I would oppose early deliveries to paying customers for beta testing. Aptera does not use potential customers as beta testers now and should not start that practice. Exposes to many potential defects to the public needlessly.
Retail delivery should be fully tested and debugged vehicles. Yes they still may have defects but that can be handled through the warranty system. The warranty system will report bugs to engineering and like GM, could maintain/conduct Failure Modes Effects Analysis (FMEA).
MemberJanuary 4, 2022 at 11:39 am
look at the Ford dealers: charging you up till $30.000 if you want to stay in the line for the F150 E..Hopefully this will not happen with the aptera. Hope they do it the way Tesla does it…
MemberJanuary 4, 2022 at 1:17 pm
It can’t happen with Aptera, they have no dealers. I fully expect them to raise their prices over what’s on the website now, Tesla has raised their prices by over 20% this year, but it can’t be anything as extreme as the F150 markups. Aptera can’t afford to alienate anyone, clearly there are car dealers who’s long term perspective doesn’t look past the end of the quarter but no manufacturer can take that view and that’s triplely so for a startup which has no existing customer base.
MemberJanuary 7, 2022 at 12:05 pm
It’s not like selling water to disaster victims for $100 a liter but it is in the same vein. The Aptera company leadership I have come to know would never consider that approach to sales. It is an unethical practice. I could see a scenario where, due to inflation, all reservation prices might increase due to increased production costs.
MemberApril 20, 2022 at 6:54 am
Definitely not. I’m number 50 trillion in line for the Cybertruck and would be furious if someone could buy a spot and knock me down further. No idea what number inline I am for my Aptera.
MemberApril 20, 2022 at 11:21 am
Click “My Accountt” then “Review Orders” and then look for “OrderID”.
If your OrderID begins with a “1” you are in the first 10,000 orders. If it begins with a “2” you are in the second 10,000 orders. For example, I’m OrderID 12705 – which means I’m #2705 in line.
MemberApril 20, 2022 at 7:24 am
Tesla is effectively doing this. If you buy FSD you can get a car in a couple of months instead of next year. FSD is $12,000 for a feature that doesn’t exist yet, I have it and in it’s present state I value it at $0 so this is just a way of buying your way up the line. Aptera could do something like this by prioritizing the more expensive versions. In the long run it makes sense to do this but for engineering reasons they are prioritizing the 400 mile FSD version. Until they have all variants in production there isn’t anything they can do about changing the production order.
I have no problem with them offering early delivery for a premium. They are running on a shoestring budget and this is a way to get money in the door faster. As an alternative that might also consider early delivery for investors that hold at least a certain amount of stock, $10,000 for example. I’m not an investor but I might consider a $10K investment if I can get the car six months earlier.
MemberApril 20, 2022 at 11:13 am
An ethical position worth reconsidering. Paying your way up the line or give preferential treatment to those with money. Might work in a third world country
MemberApril 20, 2022 at 1:35 pm
Offer canceled spots in line for a 5K premium. The money to be used to hire extra workers, pay premiums to vendors whose production is lagging and slowing down the production of vehicles, or use the money to forestall price increases. This way you get your Aptera sooner or cheaper or both.
- This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by larry kaiser.
MemberApril 20, 2022 at 4:25 pm
I understand companies prioritizing fully loaded vehicles for earlier deliveries, it makes good business sense. As for allowing wealthier buyers to be able to jump to the front of the line…that’s a different story! Most vehicles sold through dealerships keep the extra markup for themselves…those extra profits do not go to the factory (eg. Ford or Chevrolet ).
If someone wants to move to the head of the line…that should be between the early adopter willing to sell his place in line and the buyer willing to pay for that privilege. In all fairness they were willing to pluck down their $100 taking that chance. So if you want to move up in delivery time…throw out some numbers to someone who may be willing to sell their spot. I ordered 2 Aptera’s, 400 + 1000 mile range. I plan on enjoying and learning my 1st vehicle and then sell it when my 1k vehicle becomes available. I am as positive as can be that these vehicles will be of great demand once they are on the road and I believe it will have a premium price for the secondary market….for those who see it and must have it and have the means will pay up. FAIR CAPITALISM
MemberApril 20, 2022 at 9:01 pm
It also depends on what your current wheels are. If you’re limping along in an old car, sooner could really matter. My current cars are both EVs and in good shape, so… I want an Aptera, not need one. I can wait for gratification.
MemberApril 21, 2022 at 8:06 am
As an Aptera Ambassador, it has been implied that it in the company’s best interest to have some preference in getting them to people who want to spread the word and give as many people as possible a chance to experience one.
As for the early ones being buggy, I am a pro at finding bugs. Working as a Biomedical Tech, many times I have called manufactures to talk with them about a with their product, to have them tell me they never heard that complaint before. In most cases I was able to work with their engineers in solving it. It would be a pleasure for me as a customer, to work with Aptera in this way.
MemberApril 21, 2022 at 9:10 am
Beta testing (Not that which is occurring now) but done with some final, or near final version of Aptera needs to be done quickly and defects found remediated very quickly. This is best done as close to the production facility as possible with the most qualified resources. As many defects need to be found and resolved before vehicles are delivered out to other geographic locations and become a burden to the fledgling warranty system.
So, I double down on not having customers beta test/debug delivered Apterae for the same reasons stated in the earlier post. The most qualified resources to do this testing are vehicle engineers, specifically those that work on the Aptera and especially those trained and experienced in Quality Assurance (QA) processes and the systems used at Aptera.
My guess is that some of the Ambassadors have the QA and vehicle engineering background to effectively and expeditiously conduct Beta testing and would support their participation if they can quickly become familiar with Aptera’s engineering bug tracking system (Jira?) and specific QA process.
MemberApril 21, 2022 at 10:52 am
Not on these forums very often as I know my delivery (Order 20373) is a good ways out and many things could change before then. This thread is interesting to me as I just bought an ICE vehicle where dealer markups are very common due to high demand and limited availability. I also am a reservation hold for a Rivian R1S. With both the ICE I bought and the Rivian I plan to buy I have been so discouraged by “speculators” that are reserving and buying cars only to flip them for a quick profit. Now, in fairness, some of these speculators may actually be opportunists given the absurdity of the car market right now – either way it bothers me as they took a coveted production spot in the name of profit. While I don’t like the biggest wallet moving to the front of the line, I would rather see the potential profit of a high demand vehicle go to the manufacturer rather than a speculator. I also like the idea of a company like Aptera trying to separate the speculators from the enthusiasts, but I cannot see how an agreement to retain the car for X period of time is feasible. At this point I am hoping that the general car market craziness has subsided some by 2023-2024 which would likely reduce the number of people who try to flip their Aptera for a quick profit.
MemberApril 21, 2022 at 5:23 pm
I believe this would be seen as a poor and opportunistic move from a Public Relations perspective. I can imagine that in the same vein there would scalpers exploiting their places in line for $800 a pop.
BTW, I already know a Turo operator who’s contemplating getting 3 Apterae, just to add to their fleet of vehicles in their apartment complex parking lot, especially since they won’t need to be plugged in. lol