Future Battery Advancements

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Future Battery Advancements

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Future Battery Advancements

  • Future Battery Advancements

     Guy SKEER updated 1 month ago 21 Members · 50 Posts
  • Matt Gleason

    Member
    May 19, 2022 at 4:57 am

    Aptera has a focus on right to repair. I’m wondering if this extends to upgradability. As battery technology advances, would owners be able to switch out their lithium ion packs for Aptera’s solid state packs of the same size? I know this is hard to promise since the new tech may require different cooling and space, but it would be a shame if lithium ion Apteras become e-waste when a solid state model comes out.

  • Riley ________________________________

    Member
    May 19, 2022 at 5:34 am

    Most future battery tech will require less cooling which is really the only concern. With the current aptera battery pack layout it would be very easy for aptera or a third party to package any new technology and as long as it matches the power output will work seamlessly.

  • Stefan Obel

    Member
    May 19, 2022 at 5:38 am

    Solid State batteries are IMHO more or less just a theoretical concept.
    Yes, there are lab versions, but I don’t see any of this ready for mass production for at least another 5 years or so.
    I am not sure how much consideration can or should be given to a technology that is so far from being on the market.

    On the other hand, I am certain that if the Aptera is a success with hundreds of thousands of them on the road there will be someone who will design a 3rd party battery replacement based on SSB that will fit the Aptera (as long as there are no patent issues around proprietary parts needed.

    • Joshua Caldwell

      Member
      May 19, 2022 at 6:20 am

      Stefan 3 companies are starting mass production in only a few months.

      • Stefan Obel

        Member
        May 19, 2022 at 6:23 am

        Let’s see about that in a few months.

        Volkswagen invested in one of those companies and according to VW the technology still is years away from mass production.

        There isn’t even a prototype vehicle yet running on such a battery.
        So far it is all based on lab testing and computer simulations.

      • John Malcom

        Member
        May 19, 2022 at 6:44 am

        I think fake news to spur investment. As Stefan says, at least 5 years away from commercial production. Then there is the issue of price. The cost of research needs to be recouped to become profitable. (The purpose of any company) For some time the solid state batteries will be expensive even if commercially produced. I would suggest not drinking the cool aid at this point.

        Aptera engineering has their finger on the pulse of battery tech. At the appropriate time they will introduce availability of new technologies. In the meantime take advantage of their remarkable efficiency with the existing value price battery technology, by far the best in the EV industry

  • Randy J

    Member
    May 19, 2022 at 6:53 am

    It seems every week there’s another new battery tech just around the corner. Here’s another one from twobitdavinci

    Scientists Just Discovered a 1500 Mile EV Battery By Accident!

    Accidental discoveries are the best … ha!

    https://youtu.be/H-AjRrGglCE

    • John Malcom

      Member
      May 19, 2022 at 3:58 pm

      Good observation! They will come and most will go. After a while one or more will pass the tests to become commercially viable. Edison tested over 1600 substances for the light bulb filament and a total of 3000 experiments before he perfected the incandescent bulb and got a patent.

      The battery tech needs to be inexpensive to manufacture at commercial levels as well as easy/ quick to manufacture, made from readily available materials, lightweight and small form factor, last a long time, have great energy density, and support a large number of charge cycles. And most important safe! A tall order for researchers.

  • Russell Fauver

    Member
    May 19, 2022 at 7:39 am

    Unlike some other auto makers, aptera says when you buy their vehicle it’s yours. You’ll be free to repair, upgrade or modify as you wish (hopefully). I imagine there will be lots of experimenting going on with these things since they are so affordable. And when someone is successful at installing a SSB pack they’ll probably brag about it on the interwebs making their install details available to others. At least that’s how things worked with the Solectria enthusiasts back in the 90s and 2000s.

  • David Freund

    Member
    May 19, 2022 at 10:51 pm

    Just remember, when you wonder whether it’s time to replace your own battery… You know that thing you do to test a nine-volt battery by touching both terminals to your tongue? Yeah, don’t do that.

    • John Malcom

      Member
      May 20, 2022 at 9:39 am

      Ha! Good advice!

    • Russell Fauver

      Member
      May 27, 2022 at 9:55 am

      If only someone could figure out how to make electricity blue… troubleshooting would be so much easier, ‘I found where the short is, see the blue color spilling out right there?’. Or, ‘Hey, don’t touch that! See the blue on the ends of those wires? That means they’re hot.’

      Sometimes the simplest things are the hardest to accomplish.

  • Patrick Liebknecht

    Member
    May 25, 2022 at 12:45 pm

    I saw this today. I have to admire the greeniacs. They want to save the world , but not American jobs

    https://electrek.co/2022/05/24/tesla-permit-battery-factory-texas-challenged-environmentalists/amp/

    • Alain Chuzel

      Member
      May 25, 2022 at 2:05 pm

      If no world then why do jobs even matter.

    • John Malcom

      Member
      May 25, 2022 at 3:25 pm

      I have to say I am for saving the world. Also a significant theme of the Aptera Motor Company.

    • Jason Best

      Member
      May 25, 2022 at 4:40 pm

      I don’t see anything in the article about the groups not wanting to save American jobs, but I do see they want to protect their local water supply. Why not demand that the factory ensure clean drinking water AND still build the factory and provide jobs? Win, win. I too admire the greeniacs.

      • Alain Chuzel

        Member
        May 26, 2022 at 5:55 am

        (sarcasm follows):

        To some, maybe poisoned water is simply the price of “freedum”!

        • Joshua Rosen

          Member
          May 26, 2022 at 6:53 am

          The worry about local water is BS. The factory has to meet EPA standards, you can’t just run a pipe into a river anymore. It’s critically important that we be able to build the batteries we meed in the US, it’s a national security issue. China dominates the worlds battery production, we can’t be in the same situation with batteries as the Germans are with Russian oil and gas.

          • Alain Chuzel

            Member
            May 26, 2022 at 7:10 am

            Sure, “national security”, go with that…..

          • Stefan Obel

            Member
            May 26, 2022 at 7:16 am

            We could easily manufacture pretty much everything sold here in America by Americans working in American manufacturing.
            Yet, we are still buying banana phones that are made in China because it is $3.50 cheaper there per $1,200 phone.
            Not just the Aptera batteries should be built here in the United States. We are one of the largest economies, yet we made a choice to be dependent on others (including the Chinese).
            Most of our medications are coming from India.
            And to be really sarcastic: Pollution doesn’t care about borders. At least since Chernobyl everyone should know that one LOL. So the pollution created by the Chinese or anyone else sooner or later ends up here anyways (remember the Chinese drywall?). But I bet we would actually pollute less (the EPA isn’t perfect). That is the win win 🙂

    • Russell Fauver

      Member
      May 26, 2022 at 7:33 am

      I’m surprised they’re concerned about Tesla. Tesla has a history of taking care of the land air and water around their facilities. I mean, the whole reason the company exists is because Elon saw the issues with fossil fuel and wanted to do what he could to make the world a better, cleaner, place. Makes me think the groups filing the complaint have something else up their sleeves.

  • Patrick Liebknecht

    Member
    May 26, 2022 at 5:49 pm

    Climate change …. The climate has been changing since the earth was formed , if it didn’t , we would still be living in rocky lava dinosaur land

  • Rodney Kagy

    Member
    May 26, 2022 at 9:21 pm

    The effect that humans are having on climate change is rather minor. Whether you like it or not there have been climate changer, up and down, that were significantly greater than the current one. Guess what, the earth is still here and only species that did not adapt died off. Right now the USA is in third place for total pollution and it looks like the conglomeration of African countries will soon overtake us. China and Russia are increasing their pollution. Any amount we could likely be overpowered by gains we make. We should still continue to reduce our output, but within reason. Radical mommy earthers actually hurt the overall cause with ideas that cause so much harm that they get rejected. It makes it harder to get the good ideas accepted.

    • John Voules

      Member
      May 27, 2022 at 6:19 am

      Not sure what radical mommy earthers are?…but I do have a better understanding of the effect of climate change deniers and the political stance that a party takes to fight just about any positive path to balance our output of hydrocarbons. The industry of creating clean power has well outpaced the growth of the oil industry. Job growth is in the clean sector, the oil industry is on a downward trend…those who fight climate change are fighting for their own wallets not what’s best for our planet. I can’t fathom where the conversation would be if there weren’t any (mother earthers) or climate activists.

    • Bob Kirchner

      Member
      May 27, 2022 at 6:19 am

      That 333,000,000 people in the US emit more than 1,373,000,000 Africans ought to tell you something.

      If you’re going to insist on comparing countries (U.S. to China) regardless of population, to minimise your responsibility for climate change, it is intellectually dishonest to then insist that in the case of Africans the US should compare itself to an entire continent. You will always be able to find some arbitrary grouping of people that collectively have a bigger impact than some other arbitrary grouping.

      My city of Halifax produces fewer greenhouse gasses than Florida, therefore I have no need to participate in the solution to climate change. /s

      Greenhouse gas output per capital is the metric that matters. This should be obvious to anyone who is not desperately trying to convince themselves that they don’t have to act.

      Also, regarding past natural effects being “greater”, sure, over geological timelines. But no change in natural history has been as abrupt as what we are doing to the planet now.

      https://xkcd.com/1732/

      If adaptation is going to be your escape hatch the speed of the change of the condition you are adapting to matters. Human history has no precedent to adapting to such a massive change this fast, and many examples of human civilisations collapsing under much smaller strains. I recommend listening to “A Short History of Progress” by Ronald Wright.

      • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by  Bob Kirchner.
    • Alain Chuzel

      Member
      May 27, 2022 at 6:36 am

      You said: “Whether you like it or not there have been climate changer, up and down,
      that were significantly greater than the current one.”

      I repeat, the “argument” that the climate has changed before is not an argument against human caused climate change. Consider getting better informed on the topic:

      https://skepticalscience.com/climate-change-little-ice-age-medieval-warm-period.htm

      You said: “Right
      now the USA is in third place for total pollution and it looks like the
      conglomeration of African countries will soon overtake us. China and
      Russia are increasing their pollution. Any amount we could likely be
      overpowered by gains we make.”

      The old “they pollute so we can pollute too” “argument”. Give me a break.

      You said: “Radical mommy earthers actually hurt the
      overall cause with ideas that cause so much harm that they get rejected.
      It makes it harder to get the good ideas accepted.”

      B.S.

      Signed: Radical mommy earther.

    • John Malcom

      Member
      May 27, 2022 at 8:18 am

      Have to say radical mommy earther as well. My grandson who is in college in a environmental engineering program follows the science pretty closely and Rodney is drinking some ignorant kool aid.

      • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by  John Malcom.
      • This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by  John Malcom. Reason: removed double post
    • Jon_J

      Member
      May 27, 2022 at 12:16 pm

      I am a radical mommy earther as well. I’ve seen every stage of climate change denialism that I can possibly imagine. Such as “climate isn’t changing”, or “its always changed so it doesn’t matter”, or “its colder today, so global warming is BS”, or “our impact is too small to matter”, or “climate researchers are dishonest”, or “this one scientist claims it doesn’t exist”, or “paying people to study climate ensures they will find alarming results so they can continue to get paid and study further”, or “its just a way for the government to steal your money”, or “its just a way for ‘them’ to control us”, “they want to destroy the economy”, etc., etc.

      Seeing COVID deniers on their own deathbeds on respirators absolutely refusing to believe they have COVID (“its the flu!”) tells me that the information wars and their support of denialism are likely the biggest hurdle we have in preventing our planet from being inhospitable to human life due to climate change. Technology and resources seem like lesser challenges to me.

      Having lived on this planet as a US citizen for many decades, being a consumer, driving ICE vehicles, riding on planes, using heating throughout the winter in a cold climate and benefiting from AC in the summer and so many other things means my cumulative carbon footprint is outsized. I accept that I have some responsibility for climate change. This is a debt I have incurred and I need to repay while I’m still here. I will continue to take actions that I feel will have the biggest impact at reducing my debt.

      I’ve studied the science and I am ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED that what we do in this moment to avert the climate crisis matters.

    • francois kilchoer

      Member
      May 28, 2022 at 2:17 pm

      Sorry, but I emphatically don’t agree. Humans affect the climate more than just “minor” !

      I grew up in Los Angeles area in the 60’s. According to macrotrends.net, the population of the metro Los Angeles area grew from 6.6 million to just under 8.4 million from 1960 to 1970.

      Talk about smog ! Whenever my parents went to LA, I couldn’t breathe. The air pollution was simply horrible. That was before the catalytic converter, of course.

      Fast forward to the present. In comparison, the air is much more breathable, in spite the fact that the metro area in 2020 is over 12 million.

      Think about it. Human activity did affect the local atmospheric conditions, with just 6 million people (smog was a problem before the 60s, it just got worse during that time). The main culprit ? Vehicle exhaust. That’s how California got its right to enforce stricter rules on emissions, which automakers then propagated to the entire country to avoid having to meet different pollution standards.

      So, is it too far fetched to think that from 3 billion people in 1960 to close to 8 billion people in 2022, humans have little effect on the climate ?

      The “radical” solution of the 1970s was to use catalytic converters. It helped. If we’re here at Aptera today, it’s also in part to be more efficient with the resources we have left.

  • Rodney Kagy

    Member
    May 28, 2022 at 10:36 am

    The WA state Dept. of Natural Resources scientists did a joint study with the University of Washington climate scientists and their conclusion was that the most likely total temperature increase for the current global warming incident would be about 2 degrees Celsius, and that this would result in about a two foot sea water level increase. This was based upon projected pollution rates for the next twenty years. They also indicated that the basic cause for the temperature increases were not human controlled. Humans could, and should take steps to reduce the human input, but there was little hope of preventing the 2 degree increase because the human input was so small relative to the overall causes.

    • Bob Kirchner

      Member
      May 28, 2022 at 10:55 am

      One study does not constitute a scientific consensus.

    • John Malcom

      Member
      May 28, 2022 at 11:05 am

      A very minority report. Why don’t you research the prominent peer reviewed independent journals for the majority view

    • Alain Chuzel

      Member
      May 28, 2022 at 11:30 am

      PROVIDE A LINK TO THE STUDY!

    • Curtis Cibinel

      Member
      May 28, 2022 at 11:44 am

      The evidence that recent climate change isn’t human caused is very sketchy from what I’ve seen but without providing a link to this study it is hearsay. The odds that a massive unprecedented change in the climate just coincidentally coincides with wide human industrialization is statistically dubious.

    • Alain Chuzel

      Member
      May 28, 2022 at 3:09 pm

      While we wait for “minor league” Rodney, those interested in natural vs human “climate change drivers” might like to look here:

      https://www.epa.gov/climatechange-science/causes-climate-change

      Watch, in particular, the YouTube video titled “Earth’s Ancient Fever Indicates Earth’s Future Fever”. If watched to the end, you’ll here the statement “At the PETM (Earth’s ancient fever), it took thousands of years for the planet to warm. Today, we’re (humans) changing the atmosphere and the climate 10 times faster. (current and future fever)”.

      Any time now “minor league” Rodney…..

      Yours truly, R.M.E.

  • Rodney Kagy

    Member
    May 28, 2022 at 9:55 pm

    I find it very interesting that in past global warmings and also in the current one that the temperature has increased before the CO2 levels did. That’s a pretty good indication that the root cause is not the CO2 level. It doesn’t mean that CO2 levels aren’t a factor. They just aren’t the primary factor. It also does not mean that we should not try to reduce the CO2 levels. However, reducing them to zero 100 years ago wouldn’t have prevented the significant temperature increase today. It very well might have resulted in a smaller increase.

    • Llewellyn Evans

      Member
      May 29, 2022 at 2:29 am

      Rodney, this page for future battery advancements.

      It is not for trolling and spreading misinformation about climate change.

      If you have something constructive to say about batteries , go for it.

      If it is trolling about climate change, do it somewhere else.

    • Alain Chuzel

      Member
      May 29, 2022 at 5:44 am

      “minor league” Rodney,

      Having not retracted the many B.S. claims you previously made and, now, shifting to yet another, it is more than obvious that you’re here simply to spread misinformation/disinformation about human caused climate change rather than discuss Aptera. Please go away troll.

      BTW, here’s an easy debunking of your latest B.S. claim:

  • David Marlow

    Member
    May 29, 2022 at 2:48 am

    Aptera has made clear that there goal is maintainability, if you want to up grade just sell your old on and buy a new one. The difference in cost will most likely be less than the cost of an upgrade as many parts would have to be changed.

    • Llewellyn Evans

      Member
      May 30, 2022 at 12:51 am

      A battery upgrade also means added weight …. the added weight may mean upgrading other parts as well … (suspension?)

      • Russell Fauver

        Member
        May 30, 2022 at 9:22 am

        Battery upgrades don’t always mean a weight increase. When I upgraded the pack in my Force the weight was reduced by 400 pounds. The original wet cell nicads delivered 75 miles when they were new and after 13 years had degraded to just 24 miles. The LFP pack I installed delivered 100 miles when new and now after 9+ years it’s down to 75 miles. Today’s LFPs are lighter still. If I were to match the weight of the Force’s original 75 mile Nicad pack with todays LFP cells it’s range would exceed 300 miles!

  • francois kilchoer

    Member
    May 30, 2022 at 9:47 am

    Has anyone heard of Amprius Technologies ? They claim to have the highest energy density lithium-ion batteries. It’s a startup apparently, somewhat in a similar situation as Aptera. I don’t know enough about battery technology to have a relevant opinion on their claims, but perhaps someone here can chime in ?

    Their website is https://amprius.com/. Could it solve the “1000 mile range battery weight” concern that has been voiced by many ?

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  francois kilchoer. Reason: Replaced "state" with "situation" - Amprius is in the same state as Aptera, since both are in California :-)
    • Curtis Cibinel

      Member
      May 30, 2022 at 3:51 pm

      Maybe if they decide to add one or two “0”s to the price because this is a massive leap in battery technology. The 1000 mile Aptera is priced as a mass market option. If this technology is proven it will be a highly valuable commodity for years and automotive applications are unlikely to be a cost effective use case. The 1000 mile Aptera at current prices is one of if not the cheapest EVs per KWH of battery; it will not be using battery technology which is just starting to getting commercialized.

  • Guy SKEER

    Member
    June 2, 2022 at 10:56 am

    Here’s some news bout batteries, from another interested Branch of Knowledge and Use:

    In May 2-15 2022 “Aviation Week” magazine, page 29, an article discussing Battery Use in Airplanes states that Present Batteries in Use are circa 200-300 KW/kg, but there are New tech batteries now past the Proof of concept and will be available 2025 – 2030 that are 400-500 KW/kg!

    We will be able to Lighten the APTERA, whilst adding Range!

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