Cold/winter weather issues

[donald-daniels]

This is a topic near and dear to me living in the Rocky Mountains west of Denver. We not only have snow, but steep grades and constantly turning roads, so winter handling is a prime safety concern. Rule 1, stay on the road. I’m hoping we can fine tune the motor controllers for a Snow & Ice driving mode for safe solid handling on slick roads.

[Shawgrin]

Torque vectoring has been announced for the Aptera 2wd and Awd.

[owen-harding]

Show stopper for me would be cold feet. I have a car that the baffles freeze in the winter and won’t deflect any heat to my feet until 30minutes into the drive in -20C. I don’t mind losing some range, just keep my toes warm, My seat heater does not do that.

I have to look into the Off-Road , I did not see that as an option.

[Ben]

Different topic related to winter, well in Canada it will freeze at night for 6 to 8 months a year, I was wondering if there could be an app that would heat the car’s interior and clear the frosted windows before i get into it, This would work only if the car is plugged in, so you do not deplete your batteries to much with ressistive heating, this property could be extended to the solar panels to help melt a dusting of snow or residual frost. Also looking at the efficiency of the batteries, they will require heating if they are to be charged and operated in below freezing conditions, possibly the app could defer some shore power to these functions instead of using battery power. as an example; my brother own a VW ID4 this morning it was -4F outside he did a 15 kilometer run and it used 50 KM of range, “batteries are useless in very cold weather” Please comment I want to read your thoughts on this heating issue

• This reply was modified 2 years, 3 months ago by  Bernard Dubuc. Reason: not completed

[kerbe2705]

Most EVs and PHEVs have the ability to precondition (heat or cool) the vehicle while plugged in using grid (instead of battery) power to do so. From what has been said in the past, we believe Aptera plans to offer this function, as well.

Once the interior has been brought to a comfortable temperature, using heated seats and heated steering wheel can keep the occupants comfortable without blowing additional hot air around the cabin, using far less stored power.

As to range in sub-freezing weather – yes, EV range is reduced, but so is ICE range: We just don’t notice it as much anymore. Snow on the road also reduces range, as do headwinds. Most EVs have the ability to warm their batteries to an optimal temperature for charging, but it helps if they are kept out of cold, blowing wind while being charged.

I read that the recent spate of Tesla heat pump “failures” across Canada might not be problems with the heat pumps: It’s now thought that the ventilation louvers on the front of the vehicles are becoming frozen in the ‘open’ position, dissipating the system heat that the heat pump is trying to harvest before it can do so.

[paul-schultz]

To help improve heating efficiency in winter a transparent barrier (like plexiglass) behind the seats that isolates the storage area from the cabin would be an idea. No need to heat the storage compartment for most folks on most days in the winter. Make the heated cabin space smaller. The barrier could be stored under the storage/trunk floor when not needed.

[kerbe2705]

Such a barrier wouldn’t need to be transparent as the rear-view “mirror” is actually a video screen: An insulating fabric curtain could be used to isolate the storage area!

[joshua-rosen]

The Aptera won’t have a heat pump initially which in theory is disappointing but given the trouble Tesla is having in Canada at them moment it might be for the best. Two things that they should absolutely have are heated seats and a heated steering wheel, these are both cheap off the shelf items so there is no reason not to have them. My Volt had a heated steering wheel, my 2019 Tesla doesn’t (they’ve since added the feature) and I miss it. In moderately cold temperatures, 25F, which is common during the winter, you can get away without cabin heat if you have those two things. Cabin heat with resistance heating is immensely expensive in terms of range but you can mostly do without it if you are dressed for winter and you have a heated steering wheel. I’m quite comfortable in an enclosed car without heat in moderately cold temperatures as long as my fingers are warm (you can’t use gloves when your controls are all on a touch screen). When it’s very cold, it’s 10F today, then I’ll use heat.

A heated windshield would also be very useful, or at least a means to direct all of the heat to the windshield. The one thing that causes me to turn on cabin heat even though I’m comfortable is a fogged up windshield. Optimizing windshield defogging can save a lot of energy.

The final thing is remote conditioning from the app. Heating the car, and the battery, while it’s plugged in allows you to defrost the windows and to make the cabin comfortable without effecting range. In an EV there is one more benefit, heating the battery so that regen works. Regen braking doesn’t work with a cold battery because the battery isn’t capable of accepting enough charge. If you get into a cold Tesla you’ll see a little snowflake and a message saying that regen is reduced (actually it’s non existent) which won’t go away until the battery heats up. When you precondition a Tesla the battery is brought up to temperature and you get regen immediately. This is just software so there is no reason not to have it.

[Stuppie]

look at this: https://youtu.be/0YOo8P4iAoM

heatpumps, extreme cold, stuck in traffic etc etc……

Might interest you….

[aaron-redus]

I’ve had a heated steering wheel before and it’s an absolute game changer. Loved that thing.

[randy-j]

I’m wondering how we defrost the interior windows during the coldest of days. I remember years ago my old clunker’s defrost fans stopped blowing and I had to scrape ice off the interior windshield and my drivers side window (or I had to open it).

Can I assume there will be heat blown towards windows or is there tech out there I’m unaware of to solve this issue?

[Biker]

Pre-conditioning the whole vehicle (which hopefully will be available) may address that.

[randy-j]

I should have posted my message here:

I’m wondering how we defrost the interior windows during the coldest of days. I remember years ago my old clunker’s defrost fans stopped blowing and I had to scrape ice off the interior windshield and my drivers side window (or I had to open it to check my sideview mirror).

Can I assume there will be heat blown towards windows or is there tech out there I’m unaware of to solve this issue?

• This reply was modified 2 years, 2 months ago by  Randy J.

[kerbe2705]

Aptera has assured us that the vehicle will have all the HVAC capabilities of any other fully-enclosed vehicle on the market: Heat, ventilation, air conditioning, defrosting, etc.

[john-marona]

Winter range.

I’m looting at an Aptera all wheel drive and off road model, 600 mile range battery.

The all wheel drive is listed at about 10% less efficient so,

600mi – 10% =540 mile range

We sould only charge EV battery to 80% not 100% each time to preserve battery life, so,

540 mi – 20% = 432 miles

There is a video on u-tube of a guy that did a 2500 mile trip in his Tesla 3 in both summer and winter and was comparing range , charging, cost etc. and pointed out that his range was aprox. 20 % less in winter with temps, in the upper 20 degree F. range. In tep\mperatures below 0 degrees F the pattery efficiency can drop by as much as 40%, so,

432 mi – 20% = 345 miles

432 mi – 40% = 259 miles.

And you don’t drive to the last mile of range, you want to leave at least 50 miles of range for safety , so,

345 mi – 50 = 295 miles Range

259 mi – 50 = 209 miles range

I can live with those numbers and is the reason I will go with the 600 mile range Aptera. That Tesla 3 with a listed range of 325 under these conditions would be about 100 miles. and the 1000 mile range Aptera battery under worst case scenario would be at or above the Testa 3 at its best listed range.

[peter-jorgensen]

So in other words you can comfortably stop every three hours worst case.

However, winter trips generally only have terrible losses for the first hour or two – while the vehicle is cold. In my experience, after that, the battery is up to 60-70°F and the cabin stays warm easily even if it’s in the single digits outside. On long trips in the winter I see 10% loss or so. Tire pressure drops pretty hard and that hurts efficiency, but the bigger hit is with coldgate – where the charging is slower if the battery is at 60°F instead of 80°F. It adds 10-20 minutes on a 30 minute stop.

The existing interstate network is spaced about every 80-120 miles apart for chargers – That’s probably what you’d be using, or skipping every other charger. There’s nothing wrong with running it right up to 100% if you really need it, it just takes a while. In an ideal world on trips you’re between 20% and 65% or so. 65-80% is ok on speed, but over 85% is painfully slow.

-Owner of 2020 Kia Niro EV, 300 mile range (summer), 78KW DC fast charge, 64kwh battery. Western rocky mountain desert of USA.

• This reply was modified 2 years, 2 months ago by  Peter Jorgensen.

[hayden-rank]

This may be sort of a Stupid question, but today, while I was daydreaming of my new aptera, I thought of something. That thing would be rain. I’m almost positive there wouldn’t be an oversight or limitation like that but I would love if someone had an answer. Also, do we know anything about how aptera drives in harsher weather conditions? Thanks to anyone who can answer these questions!

[len]

Aptera can be driven in rain and snow.

Like any vehicle it would have limitations.

They mentioned they will probably test an Aptera vehicle in snow in a northern mountainous area of CA.

You can search the Elaphe in wheel motor site to see “Their testing” in various environmental testing

If you read the Aptera website , FAQ etc you will also read about Off Road, and AWD options which may offer options for some needs.

I hope that helps

[hayden-rank]

Thanks a lot that’s what I figured. I seem to have just completely forgotten that solar panels have been working in the rain for years lol. I will also try and locate the testing you referenced. Have a good day fellow apterian!

[george-hughes]

<div>If you have enough faith to put down a reservation, muster just a little more faith and grasp these are good guys and not at all out to defraud anyone. Indeed, if the solar panels were subject to anything other than being ‘shaded’ by the clouds when it rains or the solar panels are covered by a layer of snow in which case, solar electric generation declines temporarily – i.e. they were to rust, deform and pull away from the body, or fail to provide electric generating capacity when in the direct sun, the solar energy world would collapse. </div>

Fortunately, solar power is real and while it does take a hit a night and when clouds fill the sky, it is designed for the outdoors and will likely perform just as advertised for decades.

As far as how it performs, it actually would appear to be an above-average handler with exceptional traction and control provided by two or three independent motors tuned for superior performance. I give it the above average marks for handling because it is light, agile two-seater. It will out-perform most FWD and RWD vehicles primarily because independent motors and controls for each wheel (3WD version) provides a greater degree of anti-slip and anti-skid precision; such precision providing more effective implementation of the traction strategies.

This means it probably drives better in harsh weather conditions (heat, rain, snow and ice) than would most every ICE vehicle built before 2015 if not 2020.

This is not to say you would ride as softly as you might want or that you’ll win every autocross, rally or road race in which you compete; just that for average drivers the combination of low drag, light weight, precision traction controls, center of gravity and especially efficiency will make the Aptera you’re likely go-to vehicle 24/7/365.

[gary-mclaughlin]

I live in New Brunswick Canada where we have lots of winter. Since 2001, I have been driving a first generation Honda Insight which has a plastic skirts over the rear wheels. I live in a rural area and I was initially concerned that snow, slush and ice would accumulate under the skirts during winter, but I have never once had to clear any buildup. I am hoping the Aptera wheel covers will be the same.

[brian-chamberlain]

I was wondering how cold weather would affect the charging efficiency of the Aptera. Owners of evs that live in colder climates usually install level 2 or level 3 chargers so they can provide enough power to preheat both the battery and the car interior while simultaneously charging the vehicle during periods of extreme cold winter weather. A regular 110 outlet simply cannot provide enough current to do the job and what ends up happening is the ev has to dip into the battery to make up the difference. As a result, you end up with a battery that’s more depleted than when you began charging. Since th Apetra uses a much smaller pack than other evs such as Tesla, would you be able to both charge and warmup the battery (along with the cabin) using only Level 1 charging from a regular 110 outlet?

[kerbe2705]

Several points: “Level 3” usually refers to DC charging and there are no DC charging stations for home use (they usually cost in excess of $30,000 USD). Yes, most EV and PHEV manufacturers suggest that you NOT regularly charge your EV from a 15 Amp 110 V wall receptacle unless that receptacle is on a dedicated circuit (no other outlets connected to the same breaker). Battery pre-heating while charging does draw additional current and that’s why Level 2 charging is recommended (16 Amp, 30 Amp, 32 Amp or 40 Amp 220 V EVSEs are the most common for home use). It’s difficult to compare Tesla vehicles to other EVs because – in many ways – they work differently. Save for the 250 mile range Aptera, its battery pack capacities are not dissimilar to those offered by other EV manufacturers.

I would venture that a 110 V system that could first pre-heat the battery and THEN begin charging would be feasible but doing both heating AND charging simultaneously would – most likely – draw too much current. If an EV driver in colder regions is unable to run a 220 V line to their garage, then it might be more efficient to fully-insulate and heat the garage so that the EV and its battery wouldn’t become too cold.

[brian-chamberlain]

Thanks for the reply. My bad for the Level 3 confusion ( I’m still a bit of a noob, the only ev I currently own is an ebike…😁). My challenge is I live in an apartment and if I need to charge at home, I only have access to an outdoor outlet (probably originally installed to provide power to engine block heaters of ICE vehicles). I do have access, however, to Level 2 charging since there happens to be a public charging station only a half a kilometer from my apartment. My regular commute to work is only 3km so a round trip commute would only be 6km, tops. Even if I ran a few errands on my way home from work and ended up with maybe, at most, 10 or 12 km total distance traveled, I could just swing by the Level 2 charge near my place for a top up, which shouldn’t take too long given how little range I would have depleted. Even with range reduction during winter, I should still be able to manage. If I was planning a highway trip in winter, I would probably have to sacrifice some battery power for preheating and conditioning since I can’t leave the vehicle overnight at a public charger. I could maybe than head over to the public charger and top up what I lost, since the charging station is only a 2 minute drive away.

Don’t know if all this would work in practice, but it’s something to think about.

[joshua-rosen]

For your use case the solar should take care of most of your needs. If you have access to a block heater outlet you should be able to get about 10 miles per hour of charging which will add up to about 120 miles overnight.

[curtis-cibinel]

Level 1 charging is slower in winter due to battery heating and uses slightly more power overall than level 2 but should still be viable in all but insanely extreme situations. we dont know how well the battery will retain heat but if it is anything comparable to a tesla we can still expect ~50-70% of the power to get into the battery at level 1 unless we are talking stupid cold like -20-30C. I have an uninsulated detached garage with 120 service in it as part of my condo and expect to charge just fine.

[pcase]

Just curious to see if the Aptera team has any thoughts on how they will combat frost/ice/snow buildup on the solar panels in the winter?

[len]

My thought?

I doubt they will do anything as they are dark panels, all sloped and you will be moving too

The vehicle is only 57” H if you have a need to brush off the panels after the windows

In NJ where we had ice and snow on 44 solar stationary panels on our house for a decade…. We the sun came up, it warmed slightly my dark solar they are self cleaning! I never had to clean them off and they were in a typical PV solar panel frame Aptera’s are smooth and curved

Do No Worries

[ROMAD]

What about hail?

[pcase]

I think they are combating that by making each individual panel easily replaceable.

[kerbe2705]

@Dennis Swaney Remember that Aptera’s panels won’t be topped with glass so they may be slightly “hail-resistant”. As @pcase said, all of the panels are (hood/bonnet, roof, hatch, tail) are removeable so should be easy to replace if damaged.

[don-rasky]

I may retire to cold country, i.e., areas of the USA that routinely see winter temperatures in the -40 to -65 F. What effects will extreme cold have on the Aptera? NOTE: I have to assume that I will not always have the vehicle garaged in such winter conditions.

[john-malcom]

Aptera is engineered for a temperature range of from -20F to 125F. An environment outside of that range will significantly degrade performance. If You actually plan to live in such an environment, I would not recommend an Aptera. Perhaps a rain deer …..Or even better a dog sled

• This reply was modified 1 year, 8 months ago by  John Malcom.
• This reply was modified 1 year, 8 months ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.

[vernon-sinnott]

I am surprised Aptera hasn’t tested @ -40. Are there any plans to do so? Last winter Southern Alberta had a month straight of -30 C.

[kerbe2705]

@Vernon SINNOTT Aptera hasn’t done ANY weather testing yet – they’re working from simulations as they haven’t yet built an actual production-spec vehicle. It does no good to test unfinished products IRL situations because the actual results will vary.

By general design, electric motors are typically designed for an ambient temperature range of 40C (100F) to about -20C (-4F). Below -25C (-13F), you must consider the lubrication and material being used in the manufacturing of the motor.

[ROMAD]

If they haven’t, then they should not be selling any vehicles until they are fully tested, preferably in a climate chamber.

[john-malcom]

It is true that Aptera has done no cold weather testing of the vehicle as a whole because they are still building prototypes and this kind of testing should be done on the final version of the vehicle.

A component that is particularly susceptible to extreme cold are the in wheel motors. The Elaphe motors in the Aaptera have been successfully tested in temperatures down to -40C/F (Same temp on both scales at -40) as far back as 2017.

I particularly like this video where the testing is done in China on a frozen lake using real cars (SUV and Sedan) and over many types of road hazards. That was back in 2017. Think about how more reliable these motors are now with all of the improvements in the last few years.

Aptera is using the M700 motors with some customization. I thinks they will be one of the most reliable components of the car under all conditions but especially in really cold weather.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlzDE-0TMrUhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlzDE-0TMrUhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlzDE-0TMrUhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlzDE-0TMrU

[donald-daniels]

We live in Colorado, and I have been driving in snow country my whole life. One major concern is that the wheel pants will fill up with Ice like the wheel wells do on conventional cars. If it ices up to the point ice is rubbing the tires, that can be a big problem. I think the Wheel enclosure systems were pretty close to final design on the Beta and Gamma, and they should send someone out to play in the snow that is much closer to Southern California. I hope they have done so, even if not final form yet on the available vehicles.

[Mike-Mars]

If you get the 3WD, the heat from the motors hopefully would be enough to melt the packed snow.

The rear on a 2WD vehicle would be the one to watch.

[dennis-noonan]

Has any testing been completed in the north? The front panels seem to be too close to the ground to clear any snow depth (as the 3rd wheel also) Remembering great northern Wisconsin storms that packed snow up in the wheel wells. Does the motor supply enough heat to melt the ice and snow? Being anal, how difficult is it to check tire pressures? Tire pressure monitors are a pain when the battery goes out.

[NorthernSouler]

While Aptera hasn’t done winter testing, Elaphe has some great videos on how the in-wheel motor does in various conditions. See https://youtu.be/1alRUqx9UX8 for more.

I understand that the off-road package will provide additional ground clearance and all-wheel drive is a solid choice for winter driving. Those are the options that I’ve chosen, and I feel confident of handling winter weather.