How EV’s can help prevent the problem of grid overload, rather than cause it.

Aptera Community Solar EV Industry News How EV’s can help prevent the problem of grid overload, rather than cause it.

Aptera Community Solar EV Industry News How EV’s can help prevent the problem of grid overload, rather than cause it.

  • How EV’s can help prevent the problem of grid overload, rather than cause it.

     Alain Chuzel updated 2 weeks ago 11 Members · 20 Posts
  • David Marlow

    Member
    July 13, 2022 at 1:01 am

    There is a lot of concern that the great switch to EV’s will overload the electric power grid. It will unless EV’s and there owners can work with the power companies to manage the grid. If most EV’s adopt vehicle to grid capability. The big problem for the grid is summer evenings, when people come home and crank up the AC and plug in EV’s to charge. However, if most EV’s only used 30% of the charge on a normal day and could actually supply another 30% to the grid in the evening, then fully recharge before morning, the system would work.

    Also home solar with a battery system could work with it as well and the grid would be saved.

  • Steven G. Bueche

    Member
    July 13, 2022 at 3:15 am

    I’ll keep my car as a car. I don’t want it doing everything for everyone. I charge at home on a 110 outlet. I have a spare little solar set up for emergency charging, running things in the garage, the car or the home if need be.

    This is a start up car company and it should remain so. If we start having cars becoming the be all, do all then prices will sky rocket more than they already have.

    If you need a home charging unit and you’ve got the money, build one. If people would stop making the SKY IS FALLING speeches about the grid failing when in fact it’s a localized areas in which this occurs, this would go smoother. Power companies have made huge profits over the years and done nothing to improve their own management of either the grid, stations or management of the power.

    If Aptera makes it so, pull into it with a converter and save your refrigerator. Other wise, let the power companies figure out why they missed the boat of the future needs of it’s customers. I’m not saving their donkey.

  • David Kingsley

    Member
    July 13, 2022 at 6:37 am

    Consider the big transition. As EV adoptions grows, petroleum demand drops.

    It takes 60 kHw to drill, frack, extract, refine, transport and pump 15 gallons of gas into a car. The gas itself holds 500 kWh of energy. At 30 mpg it can go 450 miles on a tank.

    An average EV can go +/- 2,000 miles on 560 kWh of energy.

    Refineries have an electrical load on par with small cities. Some of the energy for petroleum production comes from electric power plants. Some of it is from diesel, which comes from drilling fracking… etc. Imagine the electrical load of 160,000 gas stations.

    Reduce the petroleum production chain and send energy straight to the car.

    • Jonathan Sek

      Moderator
      July 13, 2022 at 8:48 am

      David Kingsley writes “60 kWh to drill, frack, extract, refine, transport and pump 15 gallons of gas into a car”. The average U.S. auto is 25mpg, allowing 375 miles with15 gallons. Drive a 60kWh battery Aptera 600 miles instead for that same energy. We would need to estimate what percentage of crude oil processing and delivery uses electricity, but with solar charging, Aptera could actually reduce grid demand.

      • David Kingsley

        Member
        July 13, 2022 at 9:17 am

        I doubt there an MPGe for Aptera, since it is not yet in production. The DoT requires MPGe on every EV window sticker. It is calculated on how far a particular EV will go on 33.7 kWh (the energy content of a gallon of gas). My Tesla 3 MPGe is 142, which is currently the top bar for efficiency. I suspect Aptera will set a much higher bar.

        33.7 kWh / 142 miles = .23 kWh (230 watt hours) per mile, or 4.3 miles per kWh. I average 3.5 miles per kWh. I live in a mountainous region, and enjoy the 460 hp AWD.

        In other terms, the power needed to light four 60 watt bulbs for a hour, is how much energy I use in a mile.

        At 13¢ per kWh at home, I pay 3.5¢ – 4.0¢ per mile.

        I make 40% more energy than I use with my 6kW rooftop solar.

  • George Hughes

    Member
    July 13, 2022 at 7:13 am

    David:

    Here’s a better idea that lowers the cost of a new Aptera.

    Big utilities, seeking to do battery backup on the cheap, order 12,000 Aptera, all with the 1000 mile battery but also with a proprietary grid connection that taps the – for Aptera – massive battery.

    The goal, of course, is to manipulate the anarcho-capitalists of the world into purchasing one of these ‘specially’ made, proprietarily grid connected, portable batteries at a discount because the power company subsidizes the purchase in exchange for tapping the storage.

    The deal is that any power storage above 25% SOC can be tapped by the grid anytime this vehicle is attached to the grid. Since typical cars are parked for 95% of their existence and there are rules requiring you plug in at every opportunity with these ‘subsidized’ 1000 mile versions, they are designed to stay charged to 80%. That gives the big utility lots of available storage.

    Their customers get a highly efficient form of personal transportation at a significant discount and they would be able to freely use about 60% of the battery capacity of all subsidized vehicles – with at least 10,000 of the 12,000 made in the first year of the program providing 600,000 kwh of storage power distributed across the grid.

    This would actually work even better in a city environment and might even work on a ‘drive-up’ basis if connection magic were possible and feasible. See, the utility company, aware of the commuting habits of a particular market, sets up a parking lot with literally hundreds of grid-tied EVSE’s and invites those living or working in the vicinity who have EVs, to stop, park, charge with the understanding that the utility could use your battery for some backup if needed. The reason you might do this is because it cuts the cost of parking. How much? I think a 25% discount plus guarantees of a place to park and charge would be sufficient or maybe just free charging.

    The point is, I think it folks need to grow an imagination when it comes to this kind of issue which you have to know is not ‘damnable’ misinformation but misinformation propagated by fossil fuel interests in their efforts to keep, as GWB used to say, “addicted to oil.”

    Will this particular scenario happen? I have no idea. What I do know is nay-sayers who hype the problems are by definition limited in their imagination. Solving the problems we confront, OTOH, is a more advantageous response.

    • David Kingsley

      Member
      July 13, 2022 at 8:08 am

      You’re describing a “Smart Grid”, a concept that has been around for a while. The City of Boulder CO has already made it a goal but they don’t own the grid and the power companies move like trees. As for getting credit for feeding the grid, “net metering” is old hat. I’ve been getting credit from my solar production for years. Buying an EV is something that everyone can do freely without years of political wrangling or infrastructure expansion.

      • Bob Kirchner

        Member
        July 13, 2022 at 9:23 am

        I can remember Al Gore, John Kerry, and Barack Obama all talking up the smart grid in their campaigns. Even W. Bush acknowledged the idea. It’s not just the power companies that move like trees. Ugh.

  • Joshua Rosen

    Member
    July 13, 2022 at 7:47 am

    EVs on average consume about as much electricity as a window air conditioner, about 10KWh per day. An Aptera will consume half of that. I don’t see how that would over burden the electrical grid unless those EVs are all charging at peak times. EVs can be made to charge at anytime of the day so they are useful for load balancing. Time of day pricing is a crude way to do that, in the future more active means of load balancing could be used to maximize the efficiency of the grid. Every EV is already connected to the Internet, all that’s needed is a standard to allow power companies to control when cars charge. If the wind is blowing hard then order some numbers of cars to charge, when it’s calm then ask EVs to not charge. Cars spend most of the there time plugged in, very little of it is spent actually driving, so this is a very flexible resource for power companies to use.

    • David Kingsley

      Member
      July 13, 2022 at 9:24 am

      Charging my Tesla in the garage is a little more than running the clothes dryer or oven for 3-4 hours. It uses the same electrical outlet, a NEMA 14-50. I can plug it in and set to start charging after midnight. I’ll make sure I don’t charge it on Thanksgiving or Christmas, when everyone is roasting a turkey!

  • David Marlow

    Member
    July 13, 2022 at 12:04 pm

    While the power companies would benefit greatly buy having consumers help smoothing out the load on a daily basis, While I do think that the power companies can work better with consumers to solve the problem. Now is the time to begin serious discussions to find ways to prevent grid overload.

    Another option is to install home solar with batteries to supply power in the evenings.

  • David Marlow

    Member
    July 15, 2022 at 10:39 pm

    Aptera is doing its part suppling the most efficient production vehicle, that can carry two passengers at highway speeds.

    However, the Tesla plug does not currently allow for Vehicle To Grid tech, so there is room for improvement in working with power companies.

  • Joel Smith

    Member
    July 16, 2022 at 9:18 am

    There is another technology in the works that will probably play a major role in preventing EV charging from overloading the grid. The scheme is to packetize the energy that major appliances use (presumably including EVs) much the same as the way the internet works. The appliances transmit a request for a packet of energy to the grid and the grid doles out permission for the appliance to draw the power according to what is available. There is a great deal more to it than that. The YouTube channel Just Have a think did a show on it a few months ago that fleshes out how it all works much better than me. Not just a pie-in-sky theory either. There are already pilot projects with published proof of concept results.

  • Elzo Stubbe

    Member
    July 24, 2022 at 10:39 am

    An anker or bluetti power station is also a great solution. 3500 cycles, so it will outlive many of your electric devices and you can also put it in your aptera. Only 1800 euro’s for 2000W

    • David Kingsley

      Member
      July 24, 2022 at 1:09 pm

      I have a Bluetti AC300 (3,000 watts). It weighs over 130 lbs with a 3 kWh capacity. It puts out 120V @ 20 amps of AC, and 12v @30 amps DC. It needs the grid or solar to charge it. How could you charge it or draw from it while driving without tampering with the power/charge control system? I see no gain in adding that to a 60 kWh or more onboard Aptera battery.

  • Patrick Liebknecht

    Member
    July 24, 2022 at 3:45 pm

    I read where if we used all of the worlds battery capacity ( storage of solar and wind power ) we can power the world for exactly 75 seconds. We have to do better than that before we completely stop all fossil fuel production.

    • Alain Chuzel

      Member
      July 24, 2022 at 5:11 pm

      Great example of a non-sequitur.

      • David Kingsley

        Member
        July 24, 2022 at 5:25 pm

        The goal is to significantly reduce fossil fuel consumption, not eliminate it. Why does everybody think it’s a black & white proposition?

        • Alain Chuzel

          Member
          July 24, 2022 at 5:32 pm

          Not everybody…..

  • Alain Chuzel

    Member
    July 24, 2022 at 5:36 pm

    I read where solar and wind can meet world energy demand 100 times over. Weird. /s

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