How important is it to step outside the Aptera echo chamber?

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions How important is it to step outside the Aptera echo chamber?

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions How important is it to step outside the Aptera echo chamber?

  • How important is it to step outside the Aptera echo chamber?

     John Malcom updated 1 month, 1 week ago 24 Members · 41 Posts
  • Che McKittrick

    Member
    August 20, 2022 at 6:16 am

    I recently watched a youtube video criticizing the Gamma interior. I didn’t even finish watching it due to the poor quality of the video and the creator’s personal opinions. Thinking back though I’m wondering if I just didn’t want to hear anything negative about Aptera. I like to think of myself as open minded enough to listen to opposing viewpoints but is it really worth listening to negatives about a vehicle that isn’t in production yet. Then there’s criticism of the company itself. I want Aptera to succeed but I wonder if I’m not seeing any red flags because I only look for positive developments. Anyway, what are your thoughts?

  • Vernon Sinnott

    Member
    August 20, 2022 at 6:22 am

    There are always people who will knit pick things. We’re all entitled to our own opinions. The gamma reveal actually had the colors I chose. There is a new video from one of the developers that builds confidence. It is in Aptera Discussions.

    • Che McKittrick

      Member
      August 20, 2022 at 6:42 am

      My point is do you feel it’s worthwhile listening to negative opinions about Aptera (the car and the company)?

      • Ray Holan

        Moderator
        August 20, 2022 at 6:50 am

        You raise a valuable point, Che. Healthy skepticism and reasonable doubts IMHO are needed when considering any decision. Stepping outside the echo chamber when it comes to Aptera, as you put it, is desirable. It’s by weighing pros and cons that we can arrive at an informed (vs. blind) decision. Whenever my wife and I have a disagreement, I can affirm the value of “taking the other viewpoint” — if I want to stay married! LOL. Nevertheless, there are rabid haters out there on the internet that seem to delight in trashing any new idea or product. I don’t give them TOO much of my consideration.

        • Jonah Jorgenson

          Member
          August 20, 2022 at 7:01 am

          Wise words. Nothing is all good or all bad. Taking either viewpoint on any subject demonstrates a lack of rational thinking. In the current economic environment it is important to consider all perspectives on something that may impact our finances and the way we allocate our resources.

  • Riley …

    Member
    August 20, 2022 at 6:48 am

    I try to watch every video on YouTube that mentions aptera and all of the ones that have negative viewpoints are backed by weak arguments or false information.

    Theres my reverberation from the aptera echo chamber.

  • The Traveller

    Member
    August 20, 2022 at 8:08 am

    Take in all information — positive and negative. Use your critical thinking skills and the power of discernment to determine what’s best for you. Blindly believing only one side of any issue can be detrimental. Having said that, it’s obvious that there are those that absolutely do not want Aptera to succeed. This was true a decade ago, and it is still true today. Hopefully you will be able to identify trolls when you encounter them on the internet.

    All discussion about the viability of Aptera will ultimately be resolved when, and ONLY when, they start delivering vehicles. Once vehicles are in the hands of the public, they will be heavily reviewed by news outlets and customers alike. That will be the true test.

    Tesla faced massive amounts of scrutiny and forecasts of doom and gloom in its early years, and look where it is today. But Tesla had to deliver vehicles, and make improvements with each new iteration, to prove its worthiness.

    Aptera has an opportunity to be the vanguard of an automotive transportation paradigm (pun intended) shift as did Tesla. I’m sure the vast majority of us in this forum will agree that we would like nothing more than to see this vision come to fruition.

  • David Marlow

    Member
    August 20, 2022 at 8:18 am

    Aptera has already demonstrated several times, that it recognizes the need for other input, with the inclusion of other vendors and their ideas. On one hand it has slowed down production, but on the other they will have a much better product and better overall success.

    • Alain Chuzel

      Member
      August 20, 2022 at 9:16 am

      David Marlow said:

      “Aptera has already demonstrated several times, that it recognizes the need for other input, with the inclusion of other vendors and their ideas.”

      With all due respect, that doesn’t appear to be the case when it comes to the solar panels and, at least so far, it seems to be coming back to bite them. We haven’t seen the much vaunted “solar mule” Beta nor have we seen ANY solar on Gama. What we have seen/heard are plenty of excuses which can be boiled down to one thing. “It’s hard and it’s never been done before” to which I say B.S.

      • Ray Holan

        Moderator
        August 20, 2022 at 9:45 am

        Alain, I’d love to have Aptera pay you a consultant fee for a day or two to review their solar cell thinking. Seriously. I wonder what you would hear if you had extensive meetings with their solar cell team?

        • Alain Chuzel

          Member
          August 20, 2022 at 9:55 am

          I’d be happy to “review their solar cell thinking” for $0.00. In fact, I’m seriously thinking on going to the “Fully Charged” event in September (as luck would have it, I have a brother that lives in Oceanside) and would welcome a face to face with the solar team!

          • Dennis Swaney

            Member
            August 20, 2022 at 10:52 am

            Yes, go for it, Alain, and take that panel with you! 👍

        • Alain Chuzel

          Member
          August 20, 2022 at 10:03 am

          I wonder if I should bring along this:

          0:05

          RigidFlexwithAR

          0:05

          • Bob Kirchner

            Member
            August 20, 2022 at 11:01 am

            The audio on this video just set off my dog in the most amusing way.

      • kerbe2705

        Member
        August 20, 2022 at 11:08 pm

        @Alain Chuzel On May 19 of this year Aptera released a short video about the equipment they were using to “torture test” their various designs for encapsulated-cell solar panels. As I recall, the various panel samples had to stay inside the equipment for a minimum of two or three months to experience accelerated aging: Three months, then, would be just about now…

        I don’t know to whom you’ve been listening but I’ve not heard any Aptera employee make excuses about the vehicle’s solar systems. No other vehicle currently in development is planned to have solar panels that require the cells in them to curve in more than one direction simultaneously: Both Lightyear and Sion employ flat or nearly flat cell architectures. So, yes, it is hard and yes, it has never been done before – but the engineering team at Aptera seems to be plugging-away at doing it.

        • Alain Chuzel

          Member
          August 21, 2022 at 9:42 am

          I’m familiar with the “torture test” video you reference (actually published May 9 not 19). The video brought back many a fond memory of one of my first out of Engineering School projects (early 90’s) of developing/testing/setting up manufacturing and quality control of solar panels built to Mil-Std-810. Below are a couple of pics of a “pre-production” model.

          About 1-1/2 months prior to the video you reference, Aptera released a video in which Chris said in no uncertain terms, “…refining and locking down many components of the Aptera design…..” and “…we finally built our first full PRODUCTION run of panels for the vehicle…”

          Regarding excuses, if you don’t hear any in what Chris and Steve have to say in the June 2022 Live Webinar (23:25 to 27:11) then you’re turning a deaf ear.

          Finally, it doesn’t matter that you believe “No other vehicle currently in development is planned to have solar panels that require the cells in them to curve in more than one direction simultaneously:…”. It HAS BEEN DONE BEFORE and, while not trivial, IT’S NOT HARD. See pictures below for panels I built with SunPower cells circa 2007.

  • Bob Kirchner

    Member
    August 20, 2022 at 11:04 am

    Good faith criticism is always worth considering. If however the video was from a certain Australian, I’d give those “ideas” a pass.

    • Roshiyu

      Member
      August 23, 2022 at 5:15 pm

      If I could upvote this, I would. 😛

  • DIRK WRIGHT

    Member
    August 20, 2022 at 11:17 am

    Yes, I started to watch that video also and stopped. It’s poor quality.

    Some of the red flags I see right now: lack of funding, and “pie-in-the-sky” future plans.

    I’m really worried about funding. One video analysis from the “owner’s club” said that Aptera needs $50 million to start production. I would say they need more than that for financial security and that is going to be hard to get now because the IMF has predicted that the world economy is going to shrink over the next 3 years. A shrinking economy means death to startups. This is what killed Aptera 1.0.

    The future plans for all of those vehicles are, to me, an ego-driven fantasy. I suggest Aptera think small: go the opposite direction and make a single-seat vehicle that tilts into corners. Tilting autocycles are popular now for a good reason: excellent corner grip (for safety and performance). Tilting makes more sense for a single-seat vehicle. The vast majority of people commute to work alone in the cars. Most trips are alone as well. A single-seat vehicle would be cheaper and easier to make and would probably perform even better than the current model. Having even higher performance would attract sports-car people, which is a good thing.

    So, I suggest Aptera gives up their big plans for 4-wheeled vehicles. It’s just too hard to make those, given the regulations, and they would be far less efficient. The “me too” thing would be screaming out loud also. What makes Aptera unique is the efficient body shape. It’s unlike any vehicle out there. It’s the main reason I want to own one. I don’t care how it’s powered either. You could fuel it with goat blood, and I wouldn’t care. It’s the style and the efficiency that I love about the car.

  • Philip Sandiford

    Member
    August 20, 2022 at 12:02 pm

    As always, my 2¢ (which is worthless in the current economy)

    Answer: “Meh.” I am not a fan eating all info (and seeing what comes out) because life is too short. What I doodoo 😉

    First – I listen for NEWS from Aptera.

    Then – I have a very short list of “fact” based feeds that I have compiled.

    Next – I have a shorter list of people with opinions I consider valuable.

    Last – I read the questions of others (avoid the opinions) and will chip in with an answer if someone asks for it and I don’t see it reflected in the replies already.

    What I don’t do is:

    – Waste time on someone’s list of concerns about an unproven/unproduced/unfinished product or company,

    – Consume the “I want Aptera to build me THIS* car” musings,

    (*THIS is a list of someone’s personal favorite bells and whistles)

    – Or listen to crystal ball gazers trying to see into a bowling ball.

    Everything else: I’ll contact Aptera and give voice to any concern I consider serious. But I understand I am just one a 40k customers for an unreleased product, so I don’t do that often. (Just once)

  • Pistonboy Delux

    Member
    August 20, 2022 at 2:00 pm

    When I was on the Elio forum, I posted a thread entitled “Fail Scenario”. It was quickly taken down. But it had an effect because everyone started talking about the possibility of failure which was not discussed before.

    The Aptera forum is far more open.

    How much does Ford, GM, or other companies let us in on what is happening when they are developing a vehicle. Aptera may be a first in this arena also.

  • Christopher Barrett

    Member
    August 20, 2022 at 3:59 pm

    I believe that so many folks really have indulged all they can about Aptera. The groupies as they used to get called, are all in. The fact that this vehicle hits so many different highs, lowest drag efficiency, most efficient due to design, safety, due to materials and design, and cool factor, super car nature, and yada yada yada.

    The echo chamber we are in is the inovatition excitement. Human nature makes us all excited when we sense big changes… This is a big change, but needed, wanted!

  • seth feldman

    Member
    August 20, 2022 at 4:41 pm

    The echo chamber effect ,and absolute “faith in the aptera engineers” definitely worry me. Chris’ more emotional response to the wrap question instead of a practical engineering response was a bit worrying. Most of the other engineers seem to actually be experts in their field so that’s reassuring. Most of the interior decisions worry me. Steering wheels give me much more hand positions for long trips vs the tesla yoke with basically one mediocre hand position being uncomfortable after a while. Will I be able to take a long test drive before buying, or do I have to prepurchase and go through the hassle of returning it if it’s uncomfortable to me? Will I be able to pressure wash the interior fabric, since I can’t wipe it down like a smooth surface?? All in all if they live up to their promises I hope they do well, but they need to be comfortable, and practical enough to go mainstream.

    • John Malcom

      Member
      August 20, 2022 at 6:03 pm

      I would second Phillips post.. Rational, balanced, objective. Listen, check/ verify, wait and see. Ask or comment to Aptera if really important. Armchair complainers or wanters take note.

  • Gary Greenway

    Member
    August 22, 2022 at 10:35 am

    I spent 32 years working for an auto manufacturer that handsomely rewarded ‘yes-men’. During that time, they went bankrupt largely due to that policy. Between that experience, my time in the military, and college, I’ve learned that there are usually many ways to solve most problems.

    The best way to find the best ideas is to seek out the people that disagree with you and have the ability to explain their viewpoint. To learn, you must listen to people that do not have the same body of knowledge as yourself. The trick is, to separate the treasure from the trash.

    That’s why I am drawn to science. It is so easy to throw out the old ideas when the new ideas prove to be more valid.

    The first step to reducing confirmation bias in your life is to recognize what it is and how susceptible humans are to its influence. Once you have that understanding, you’ll have a new filter in your toolbox of BS detectors.

    Now, go find a nay-sayer to analyze. Embrace the diversity of ideas.

    Except that goofy yoke. You do not have to embrace that.

    • John Malcom

      Member
      August 22, 2022 at 10:49 am

      Ha ha. Not “Except” but “Accept” that done deal yoke

      • Gary Greenway

        Member
        August 22, 2022 at 10:57 am

        Ooo, well played! But no. That thing is destined to be replaced as soon as I can measure the steering shaft spline.

        • John Malcom

          Member
          August 22, 2022 at 6:30 pm

          👍 😥

    • John Voules

      Member
      August 22, 2022 at 10:50 am

      Gary…I disagree with your synapses. Or should I agree…hmmm, whatever works.

    • Alain Chuzel

      Member
      August 22, 2022 at 1:37 pm

      “….toolbox of BS detectors.toolbox of BS detectors.”

      Possibly a Carl Sagan reference(?) (The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark)

      • Gary Greenway

        Member
        August 22, 2022 at 6:10 pm

        No. I haven’t read that yet. So, I just bought it. 👍

        • Alain Chuzel

          Member
          August 22, 2022 at 8:33 pm

          I think you’ll love it and I’m sure you’ll find some of what Carl said to be quite prescient. The one thing I didn’t enjoy was the amount of words surrounding “alien abductions”.

  • Michael Kahlow

    Member
    August 22, 2022 at 2:34 pm

    I’d say it’s very important to be skeptical.

    I took a look at Aptera’s SEC filings a bit ago. While I’m not an expert in finance, a couple of things stood out:

    1) They had $19m in cash at the start of this year.

    2) They had expenses of $19m last year.

    3) Given that they’re trying to expand into production, and have moved to a new location, they’re going to need a lot more than $19m this year.

    It’s pretty clear to me that they’re going to need an infusion of cash to move from development to production. The $50m number quoted earlier sounds about right – they need to purchase not only the raw materials for the vehicles they’re selling, but also all of the manufacturing equipment. The delay in the gamma reveal is worrisome – the only way they’re going to get more $$ is to show that they have a product that’s ready-to-go, especially given the number of times that delivery dates have been pushed back.

    I’ve also noticed a bit of silence lately from the company. Sure, we’ve got a nice little video an interior mockup… which is really nothing.

    They’re going to need to hit it out of the park at the event in September. If they don’t have a nearly fully operational gamma vehicle (including software) to show, I don’t think the future is bright.

    • John Malcom

      Member
      August 22, 2022 at 6:40 pm

      I think this crunch time comes for all startups at some point. Tesla survived it by the skin of their teeth in a more favorable economic climate. Aptera now up to bat. Hope they don’t pull a Yankees on us. (Great team fading). September 10-11 very important. I hope Aptera got everything they needed from the supply chain or somewhere else they needed for the Game at the show

      I too have noticed an uncharacteristic “Quite” from them. won’t speculate on the reasons. Could be positive or negative

      • kerbe2705

        Member
        August 22, 2022 at 6:49 pm

        @John Malcom Aptera’s pattern has been to release one video update each month and press releases whenever something of note occurs. Right now they’re dissecting the last video and tweeting and reposting it as tiny clips.

        It’s long been the case that – if we beg hard enough – they’ll do a webinar.

        My guess is that – at this point in time – they have nothing new to say and/or are too busy moving things ahead that they can’t spare the time to hold our hands.

        • John Malcom

          Member
          August 22, 2022 at 7:04 pm

          @kerbe2705 sure. I am in favor of just leaving them alone to do there work in preparation for September. If I were in their position, that is what I would want. Wish them luck. Sorry there is nothing we can do in the short term to help out other than wishing them well and hoping the stars align for them and us.

          We don’t know all that is going on behind the curtain except that they are under a tremendous amount of stress.

  • Ray Yan

    Member
    August 23, 2022 at 6:34 pm

    I mean in general, the longer it takes for Aptera to get to market the more their competitors can bring the prices of their vehicles down thanks to the magic of economies of scale. Models like the Chevy Bolt EUV are already down to Aptera pricing or significantly lower once you take into account federal subsidies (that Aptera doesn’t qualify for).

    Energy efficiency is one thing, but economic efficiency is another. Even after taking into account the possibility of not having to plug in your Aptera, as long as you have a home charging system setup the amount of time it’d take for your Aptera to repay the cost differential of a subsidized Chevy Bolt EUV is way too long to be worth it in terms of time value of money calculations. And that’s comparing it to a vehicle in a format that frankly will be significantly more comfortable and fitting to the tastes of most American consumers. More traditional automotive layout, more car seats for passengers, more cargo capacity, no yoke, etc.

    Every departure from that comfortable norm is another roll of the dice to see if someone just opts to get something more conventional.

    Fortunately Aptera more or less smokes the competition when it comes to 400 mile+ models and the solar charging is definitely a killer feature, especially considering the degenerating state of American power grid infrastructure. The looming threat of further increases in energy inflation and inability for supply chains/power supplies to actually ramp up as fast as EV demand will is definitely what seals the deal for me, but this is hardly going to be a universal sentiment.

    Will demand be broader amongst the general populace than what exists amongst the fanbase who preordered? Hard to say.

  • Bryan Hendricks

    Member
    August 23, 2022 at 10:38 pm

    I have read several negative reviews. Some of the arguments aren’t that bad. I appreciate the info. However, even though some of those arguments might be valid, I don’t feel obligated to care. At the end of the day I either just don’t care about some of those things as passionately as some of the critics or I’m confident in my ability to either solve the problems or deal with it.

    For example: I don’t like the white head rests and white yoke. My solution is to sign-up to pay for the privilege of customizing the interior colors.

    Another example: If I can’t learn to love the shape and utility of the yoke, then I’ll look for an after-market alternative.

    Recent example: I am uncomfortable with how many people in the gamma-reveal video had to adjust their feet to fit through the limited gap in the doorway. Frankly, I’m not completely sure how I am going to resolve that one, but I will try to adjust the way I enter or exit the vehicle to minimize the problem.

    I don’t feel obligated to care about the criticisms. I’m tired of reading some of the whining. I’m cocky enough to think that I can either fix the bigger issues or deal with them.

    • John Malcom

      Member
      August 24, 2022 at 12:14 am

      The Aptera will come as designed, engineered, and produced. This is the way all cars come from a manufacturer. As with any car from any manufacturer, there will be some features we don’t care for and many that we want. I believe you represent the vast majority of potential Aptera owners. We will figure a way to deal/ compensate for the things we don’t care for rather than whine about them. It is the rational approach that we have applied to the acquisition of every car we have decided to purchase.

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