In wheel motor info and issues

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions In wheel motor info and issues

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions In wheel motor info and issues

  • In wheel motor info and issues

     John Voules updated 2 months ago 86 Members · 272 Posts
  • DON RASKY

    Member
    October 2, 2021 at 2:15 pm

    What is the risk to the in wheel motors if partially submerged? Some of the fire roads on which I would like to take the Aptera in the national forests nearby have on occasion standing/flowing water of a few inches to perhaps as much as a foot or 12 inches of water crossing the roads.

  • Mario Chabot

    Member
    October 2, 2021 at 2:15 pm

    Is the in-wheel motor a radial flux type?

  • Paul Schultz

    Member
    October 2, 2021 at 5:44 pm

    I’m not sure. But, you can check out the options on the elaphe site. The M700 matches the Aptera specs.

    https://in-wheel.com/en/solutions-2/direct-drive-in-wheel-motors/

  • kerbe2705

    Member
    October 2, 2021 at 9:40 pm

    I’ve found several sources that mention Elaphe as a maker of radial flux motors – it is the most common type for in-wheel mounting.

  • John Malcom

    Member
    October 3, 2021 at 12:03 am

    Mario, a good question. I assumed Elaphe made only radial flux motors since their top of the line 1500 is a radial flux. As pointed out, Aptera is using the 700 model. There is a possibility that it is axial flux, but I would bet radial flux like the 1500. Aptera is asking Elaphe to make some modifications to their standard motor for use in the Aptera. It would be unlikely that would include making it axial flux if it isn’t already.

    Both configurations have advantages and disadvantages for EV in wheel motors. The Aptera engineers have done extensive research to select a motor vendor and to specify alterations to the standard design to make the most efficient Aptera performance. Many factors, not just the flux design advantages and disadvantages go into the selection of an in wheel motor.

  • Paul Evans

    Member
    October 4, 2021 at 2:58 pm

    While I understood the conceptual differences between radial and axial flow aircraft engines, I didn’t understand how the different types of electric motors actually worked.

    Immediately following the Aptera Makers edition of the “white body” team, YouTube presented a very good basic science tutorial on how the two types of electric motors work, at https://youtu.be/8EEVPVNJHjM

    Once again, it confirms that the Aptera team is making great decisions on the car’s design!

  • John Malcom

    Member
    October 11, 2021 at 5:11 pm

    BIG RETRACTION!!!

    We found out today, in the J. Leno YouTube video, that the electric motors provided by Elephe are in deed axial flux motors. A major departure for Elephe from their Top of the line motor.

    Another feather in the advanced technology cap for Aptera

    Thanks Paul for the link to the description of this technology.

    The “New Hope” Sounds like a Star Wars movie????

    • kerbe2705

      Member
      October 11, 2021 at 5:45 pm

      You beat me to it, Uncle John! ????

      • John Malcom

        Member
        October 11, 2021 at 9:27 pm

        Hmmm mmm mmm. Great minds think alike………..????

        • Curtis Cibinel

          Member
          October 13, 2021 at 10:05 pm

          Great minds think for themselves. Aptera entire concept is to buck conventional design – first principles design.

    • John Reilly

      Member
      October 13, 2021 at 7:31 pm

      This means before starting an Aptera, you can go through a pre-start check list that includes, “Axial Flux motor 1, engage! Axial Flux motor 2, engage!” Totally unnecessary, but saying “axial flux motor” may never get old. Note bene, marketing team.

      • Carl Knapp Knapp

        Member
        October 14, 2021 at 4:10 pm

        The motors control board uses a back to the future Arial Flux Capacitor.

        • John Malcom

          Member
          October 14, 2021 at 9:31 pm

          can someone tell me who supplies the flux capacitors. I want to buy stock in that company

          • Fanfare 100

            Member
            October 14, 2021 at 9:45 pm

            Please, please, let’s concentrate on releasing this Aptera first. It’s important that this iteration be delivered on time. Then we can worry about Flux Capacitors for the Aptera 2.0. ???????? Engage!

  • MidnightPilot .

    Member
    October 14, 2021 at 5:02 pm

    The later model will have a flux capacitor.

    (when this baby hits 88mph…..)

  • kerbe2705

    Member
    October 14, 2021 at 9:09 pm

    I might just change my name to “Axial Flux” – but I’ll pronounce it, “flooz”, to rhyme with “shoes”.

  • Donald Kraper

    Member
    October 29, 2021 at 7:30 am

    I don’t post a lot but try to keep and eye on things. I am also an investor.

    After reading several posts as well as watching the Aptera SWOT Youtube video, the thought of a “New American Sports Car”has stuck in my head. (well done Ifi7929501)

    Aptera is quick, light, and power to weight ratio is excellent. With 70hp at each wheel (x3), and the 250 mile range battery pack, it will be the quickest set up from the factory.

    I have been wondering:

    Does Elaphe manufacture a hub motor that will fit the Aptera with more Horsepower?

    Is there the capability to allow the batteries to dump maximum energy to the hub motors?

    If so, this could be something special. One of the most efficient cars out there for $25k…that, with a change of hub motors could be a rocket on wheels, and still be considered very efficient. I have no idea if Elaphe has a motor that could work, nor do I know the price of each one if they were available. But if they were, I might be first in line to do the swap. Even if the costs of the motors were,$5k-7k a piece, you could end up with an extremely quick ride for under $45k.

    These are random thoughts, wondering if anyone else is thinking along these lines…(maybe I’m just trying to relive my days of stuffing a big block in a Vega)

  • BRUCE MENGLER

    Member
    October 29, 2021 at 7:47 am

    APTERA charges $2,500 to upgrade from 2WD to 3WD; which adds a third motor to rear wheel.

    • Donald Kraper

      Member
      October 29, 2021 at 7:51 am

      Correct. 70hp per wheel x 3. 210 hp

      But what if Elaphe has a 100hp hub motor that could be swapped? Now we could have 300hp.

      My reservation is for 3 motors/400 range, but may be changing that to a 250 range to remove weight.

      • Peter Jorgensen

        Member
        October 29, 2021 at 8:12 am

        Actually, the Elaphe M700 is rated for 75 KW max (100 hp) but Aptera has had it de-rated to 50 KW (67 hp). So the motor is already capable of more. There may or may not be a way to unlock the rest of that potential in the controller. I’m not sure if it was de-rated for efficiency or cooling. Something to look into…

        The other thing to be aware of is that’s 516 ft-lbs per wheel. That’s a lot of torque and will just spin tires. So the critical thing there is good traction control. According to Chris Noir will already burn rubber VERY easily. Adding more power will help at the higher speeds though – faster 60-90mph pulls and whatnot.

      • Ray Holan

        Moderator
        October 29, 2021 at 11:28 am

        Don, I ordered the 25kW pack with AWD for the very reason you mentioned — quickest acceleration. I’d love to see a graph displaying the number of pre-orders for each of the Aptera configurations.

  • George Hughes

    Member
    October 29, 2021 at 12:07 pm

    The issue with speed racing the Aptera is the RPM limits of the in-wheel motors. This limit has little effect on torque or acceleration but limits top speed as the motors ‘red line’ so to speak at 1,500 rpms. Doing the math with a 16″ wheel, adding some circumference for the tire and you get a top speed of between 100-110 mph. Up wheel size to 21″ and you could probably hit 130 mph.

    This means that even at the drags, while the Aptera will be an eighth-mile marauder, at quarter-mile distances, the Aptera is at a disadvantage to other cars that have higher top speeds.

    Out of the box, and knowing this might be a ‘fight’ because of the autocycle three-wheel designation, the Aptera might be a competitor in the autocross competitions given its wider than ‘wide-track’ geometry and tunable torque vectoring. Getting the Aptera ‘classed’ is the challenge for this and/or track racing where its strength of acceleration and ‘presumably’ handling would make it competitive.

    I say ‘presumably’ because of the issue of unsprung weight, while of minimal impact in non-competitive environments, may be problematic in competition.

    There presumably are ways to increase the RPMs of the in-wheel radial-flux motors spec’ed by Elaphe, but, like with all mechanical devices, there are practical limits. https://www.emobility-engineering.com/radial-flux-motors/ suggests to me (the material is totally over my comprehension) that RPMs of 2-3,000 are attainable through elements like magnet choice, placement and winding design, among others changes that would also affect torque availability, weight and other performance characteristics.

    This is the purview and mindset of racers who, with multiple in-wheel motors, will have to not only modify the stock motors, but modify them so that their individual performance remains balanced among the different power plants.

    I figure, assuming production starts ramping in 2023 that sometime after that some talented gear-heads will start crunching the numbers and come up with ways to expand the capabilities of the Aptera beyond its already substantial attributes. I can’t wait 😉

  • Ricky Camacho

    Member
    October 29, 2021 at 2:22 pm

    That why I’m buying one, I like it more as a sports car than an efficient car. AWD 250 miles battery also. I’m always playing around in https://www.motormatchup.com tweaking weight etc. hopefully we get a sport mode to at least unlock a little bit more HP or something fingers cross.

    • John Malcom

      Member
      October 29, 2021 at 6:41 pm

      Other places on the forum address the motor limitations for top speed. (Motor controller can only change the flux so fast. The motors are rated for higher peak Power (75kW) than the Aptera 50kW if you check the Elephe site under Direct Drive Motors, M700.

      https://in-wheel.com/en/solutions-2/direct-drive-in-wheel-motors/

      Of course anything to do the the “Stock” configuration will void any warranty, and it is not only the motor that would need mod’ng, all of the electronics for motor control, batter interface, and UI would need reworking as well. Maybe even more I an not aware of.

      Pretty expensive endeavor. 3.5 seconds to 60 is pretty good. Only a few super cars do better.

      Good luck!

  • Kevin Molloy

    Member
    November 15, 2021 at 6:28 pm

    Sorry if this has been asked before…but what about a failure of one of the in wheel drive motors? Will you still be able to continue driving with the one or two motors remaining, (depending on what you orderd)? I don’t want to site a specific failure as I am not familiar with how they might fail. Is there a way to disconnect the failed motor so that the wheel can rotate freely? Just throwing this out there for the experts to answer! Thanks!

  • Paul Schultz

    Member
    November 15, 2021 at 6:54 pm

    I can report that the Lordstown Motors Endurance pickup truck that uses 4 Elaphe in-wheel motors can operate with a motor malfunction. At least from some of their reports… nothing like a validation video exists though. But, Apteral is using the same in-wheel motor tech so I would think that they can still have the vehicle operate if one of the motors fails. At least in a ‘limp mode’ to avoid being stranded.

    Paul

  • Riley …

    Member
    November 15, 2021 at 7:59 pm

    I would be surprised if the Aptera can drive with one front wheel powered and the other not. With the in wheel motors applying a torque onto the steering i think it would just pin the steering towards the direction of the dead motor.

  • Philip Raymond

    Member
    November 15, 2021 at 8:08 pm

    This situation might be a good reason to get the all wheel drive version, that extra rear wheel motor could possibly help a lot. Just conjecture on my part.

  • Peter Jorgensen

    Member
    November 16, 2021 at 7:44 am

    In theory the AWD version could manage to limp around by powering the rear motor to push it forward while the front two didn’t do much. Or if the rear failed it’d be symmetrical and not an issue. The FWD version might be able to “limp” to the shoulder but it would be hard. I’d be more worried about losing control while driving if one side suddenly went full regen without the other side.

    I don’t know how much of that they’d actually write into the programming. In general I think this is an extremely rare failure case that we may not ever see in the real world given the reliability of electric motors.

  • George Hughes

    Member
    November 19, 2021 at 12:19 am

    Properly maintained, in-wheel motors are impervious to water and can operate under water. That capability might come in handy because is also reputed to float … much like the first VW bug.

    The only caveat I’ve heard regards the water are some of the motor seals may need replacing in a regular scheduled maintenance like every 30,000 miles. They were considering extending the service interval significantly, maybe to 100,000 miles. I think the limited loads on the in-wheel motors because of the aerodynamics means the motors run cooler than in other applications extending the life of the seals.

    I didn’t catch whether the problem was dust or moisture infiltration at any particular place in the motor but it is pretty intuitive that air and rolling resistance require power; the less power required to over come the resistance means the motors run cooler. Aptera is doing a great job doing that.

    You can go on youtube and see videos of Teslas running through seat-high and deeper water and operating through the challenge apparently damp, but rolling under its own considerable power.

    Isolating electrical circuits from what ever environment the components find themselves is something engineers generally do quite well.

    • Riley …

      Member
      November 19, 2021 at 1:05 am

      from all sources aptera has given i assume It will be ok to briefly submerge but don’t leave your hub motor underwater overnight.

    • Curtis Cibinel

      Member
      November 19, 2021 at 1:26 am

      Welcome to Abbotsford BC.

      Ps: yes that is a highway overpass

      • John Malcom

        Member
        November 19, 2021 at 7:58 am

        Hope you and the rest of the Aptera fans in BC are not to adversely impacted by this calamity.

        • Curtis Cibinel

          Member
          November 19, 2021 at 9:41 am

          Just the usual hording tp and empty grocery shelves. Shortages are due to overreaction by idiots. Most logistics are already rerouted. Basically will be back to normal by next week. A friend needed to leave her car in Vancouver and fly back because all road links were closed but she will go get it on Sunday.

          • John Malcom

            Member
            November 19, 2021 at 11:28 am

            Glad to hear????

      • Russell Fauver

        Member
        November 19, 2021 at 8:51 pm

        Why would somebody build a highway overpass in the middle of a lake? Sorry for the poor attempt at humor. Man, that’s a lot of water! Does that happen often?

    • Joshua Rosen

      Member
      November 19, 2021 at 6:56 am
  • Len Nowak

    Moderator
    November 19, 2021 at 5:09 am

    Well besides the motors at twelve inches you have the belly of the Aptera that is only about nine inches off the ground. I see seam from the belly panels on the Aptera, lots of wires and batteries in there!

    Nathan had said it would float for a while too because the the foam cord shell

  • Paul Schultz

    Member
    November 20, 2021 at 10:03 am

    Here’s an Elaphe video showing a compilation of some adverse condition testing of the motors.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1alRUqx9UX8

  • Elzo Stubbe

    Member
    December 5, 2021 at 11:20 am

    Found this on Traxial, the new subsidiary of Magnax. They are developing yokeless axial flux motors. Less material, higher torque, up to 20% more range. Then this article on in-wheel motors or so called hub-motors: https://www.traxial.com/blog/lets-talk-about-in-wheel-motors/

    In short: exposure to all kind of weather influences, salt, shocks and vibrations resulting in far less longevity……

    What must I think of this. Is this hub motor a good idea or a bad idea in the long run?

  • G N

    Member
    December 5, 2021 at 11:55 am

    They made a couple videos going into the testing conducted on the in-wheel motors – they’re clearly thinking about the same hazards you are. After watching those, I’m not tremendously concerned.

    They also claimed that some fancy electronics will help minimize the effects of high unsprung weight. They’re also obviously going to great lengths to reduce motor (and entire wheel assembly) weight. I’ll be very interested in what impartial reviews conclude regarding whether that challenge has been sufficiently tamed.

  • Joel Smith

    Member
    December 5, 2021 at 12:32 pm

    There are benefits and drawbacks to be considered and I am sure the engineering teams at Aptera and Elaphe are considering them far more comprehensively than I might hope to. Granting that part of the appeal is the novelty, I remain committed to supporting their proving the mettle of the current approach. Looking forward to seeing a lot more proofing of the ideas with the beta testing. Finally, since there are liable to be thousands of vehicles on the road before my number comes up, there will likely be all sorts of operator reviews to peruse before writing the final check for my own.

  • Ray Holan

    Moderator
    December 5, 2021 at 12:45 pm

    Elzo, one big advantage of the hub motors in the Aptera is the vehicle does not need the weight, the expense, nor the inherent power losses of a transmission. Nevertheless, the hub motor trade-off’s you do mention are real.

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