In wheel motor info and issues

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions In wheel motor info and issues

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions In wheel motor info and issues

  • In wheel motor info and issues

     John Voules updated 5 days, 17 hours ago 86 Members · 272 Posts
  • Kyle Wolff

    Member
    July 16, 2022 at 9:29 pm

    I’m not sure what kind of shielding they’re using, but it looks like the motors themselves should be fairly sturdy, based on Elaphe testing: https://youtu.be/1alRUqx9UX8https://youtu.be/1alRUqx9UX8

    • Jerry Freter

      Member
      July 17, 2022 at 7:33 am

      It looks like an aluminum shroud on the inner face of the rotor. The rim and house also look aluminum. That will knock down the magnetic fields such that ferromagnetic dust could get too attached to the magnets. There still appear to be some slight clearances between the stator and rotor that could be a problem. IF they put a flexible seal there, we could keep more dust out.

      This may well be a case of “Let’s just wait for the production vehicle and see”

  • Ruth A Reed

    Member
    July 23, 2022 at 2:31 pm

    Good question. I drive off road for 3 miles to get to my home. That is on a road that is very rough.

  • Michael Rohan

    Member
    July 30, 2022 at 12:31 pm

    When looking at various pictures of the suspension and seeing exposed steering ball joint nuts in some of them it made me wonder: how easy would it be for a thief to just take the entire outboard assembly?

    The end product would probably have the steering knuckle ball joint nuts covered by the fairings, but it has been stated that those fairings would be easily removable by basic tools. And anyhow some people may opt to keep the fairings off. Once the fairing is out of the way, it looks possible to just unbolt both nuts without even jacking the car up, cut the wires and take the motor/wheel assembly. The process could be this: remove cotter pins, unbolt the tie rod, cut the cables, unbolt the top ball joint nut. Knock the upper control arm upwards to release it, and do similar for the bottom control arm but while pulling the tool so the tool does not get pinned while the vehicle falls and releases the outboard assembly. A compact impact like Dewalt’s Atomic impact might be able to fit under this nut while the car is on the ground so it’s possible that no jack is needed, or just use a jack or manpower plus some blocks. In the case that the wheel gets in the way of lining a tool up with the nut, a socket U-joint can be used, or add in wheel removal to the process. If the control arms turn out to be not so hardened, another process would be to just cut through the entire control arms and connections with a grinder or portable band saw.

    The lower cost and solar nature of the vehicle may mean it would be left out and unsecure, and not always in the safest neighborhoods. Some may argue that it won’t be a thing because who is going to want an Aptera motor? But I think there will be a market for them as they get damaged or wear out, and they will probably have uses outside of being installed in an Aptera. Also I would guess that one motor will probably have more street value and be easier to steal and easier to sell (online/eBay?) than a full set of chrome 22s, and anyone with any street smarts would know how that’s a thing.

    Anyways, maybe I just come from a bad neighborhood and know how thieves think and work. I don’t point this out to encourage the behavior but to make it be known so hopefully there can be some thought by the company and owners on taking measure towards preventing it. Even if that just comes in the form of some security castle nut, either OEM or aftermarket user installed, just like how there are wheel lock nuts, or hardened steel rods in or on the control arms to deter cutting attacks.

  • Michael Rohan

    Member
    July 30, 2022 at 12:35 pm

    Oh and third motor removal process: simply lift vehicle, remove fairing, remove wheel, remove motor.

  • Markus Schmid

    Member
    July 30, 2022 at 12:43 pm

    No. Simply no. Look here:

    Original Video here: https://youtu.be/YNvcr9jBcTo?t=115

    • This reply was modified 2 months ago by  Markus Schmid. Reason: adding link to original video
    • Markus Schmid

      Member
      July 30, 2022 at 12:47 pm

      … but of course it is theoretically possible to completely disassemble any vehicle. It is much easier (and gets done) to simply steal the whole vehicle using a truck crane.

      • Michael Rohan

        Member
        July 30, 2022 at 1:10 pm

        Yes of course theft of an entire vehicle is a thing but not every thief steals entire vehicles. Hence my reference to wheel theft being a thing thus Aptera wheel/motor theft would likely also be a thing.

    • Michael Rohan

      Member
      July 30, 2022 at 1:09 pm

      I don’t know how the wheel removal addresses security or lack of security of the motor, or the 3 different removal processes that I outlined.

      • Markus Schmid

        Member
        July 31, 2022 at 12:58 am

        It certainly would be fun to watch when, without unlocking the Aptera, once a wheel was up in the air it would start to spin slowly… 😜

  • David Marlow

    Member
    July 30, 2022 at 1:33 pm

    If some can make a buck by stealing something someone will try. However these motors require a special electrical driver to make them work. So they will have to take that as well.

    • Michael Rohan

      Member
      July 30, 2022 at 2:08 pm

      That is a good point; if these motors are not just ‘dumb’ electric motors. That could at least limit the motors to only being used on the Aptera, or at least to similar vehicles as they come out. But other use cases may be DIY EV projects that may have the drivers and hardware available separately. And it’s not like thieves are EV DIYers, but those looking to purchase such a motor may not be aware or care about the source.


      I guess it also remains to be see if they implement some secure part signing, in which case the Aptera can detect the motor’s serial and determine if it’s original to the vehicle, or even query if it’s marked stolen. Though I hope such a system does not hinder owner reparability the same way it does with Apple and iPhones.

  • Christopher Barrett

    Member
    July 30, 2022 at 2:10 pm

    If you are from any big city, you have seen many cars “stripped” for parts on the side of the highways, on the outskirts of cities. Yes, catalytic converters are being stolen, (the Aptera will not need one) and it used to be they would take your dashboard to get the radio. So, anything is possible, the bad guys do stuff like that all the time. However, I find it unlikely that folks will even know that the motor is in the wheel. It is of very low concern to me, as I doubt it will become a target. Maybe, even the bad guys will say, “wow that is one neat machine!” Nothing to steal here. You just won’t know if folks will steal them, until they are on the streets for a while. Cameras can be a prevention worthy of your investment, if you are losing sleep over this.

    • Michael Rohan

      Member
      July 30, 2022 at 2:50 pm

      Yeah that could be true that thieves will be unfamiliar with the car and assume the motor is inboard. If this type of motor configuration catches on, then over time I can see that changing. By that I mean someday when EVs are commonplace and there are many options of EVs, some percentage of them are bound to have outboard motors. Once success is found somewhere, then copy cat thieves can do some basic research to see what model cars to look out for. Just as I am sure once catalytic converters came out, thieves didn’t think to steal them. Though once someone succeeds at it then word and knowledge to steal spreads, compounded as the catalytic converters become more valuable. But if it’s difficult and very secure hopefully it can be a nonstarter in the case of the Aptera.

      • Lane Costilow

        Member
        August 1, 2022 at 6:35 pm

        Though it’s an apt description, “outboard motors” made me see an Aptera motoring across a pond.

  • Sam Adams

    Member
    July 30, 2022 at 2:35 pm

    Hopefully there’s no precious metals or the likes in them. Also, with such a nich, I would think there wouldn’t be a black market of sorts for low mileage motors.

    • Mark Salyzyn

      Member
      July 30, 2022 at 7:15 pm

      “Elaphe … axial flux motors for their lightness and compact dimensions and lower use of critical materials like copper and rare earth materials” Luc D (dual reservation holder)

      So yes, it does appear that they have minimized precious metals. But you may need to put a sticker on there of this fact, since someone keeps on stealing my house air conditioner for its copper …

      • Qiang Fu

        Member
        July 30, 2022 at 7:28 pm

        This sticker on the wheel pant may be more effective:

        • Mark Salyzyn

          Member
          July 30, 2022 at 7:44 pm

          Lol ‘Beware of Dog’ maybe 🙂

          This has not stopped people stealing my house air conditioner, the last one the power wires were snipped _live_ since they also contain copper :-(. Never underestimate human greed.

          One of my previous cars (for 15 years) was a S2000 AP2, roof was sliced open to get in, but they failed to take my seats, which go on the black market for $5000, because I had a different kind of bolt at each corner, hex, security torx, triangle and one of them requires a specialized phillips impact wrench as manual will just ‘cam out’. The thief got one off and that was it. Cost me $650 to put in a new factory roof (I installed), insurance did not cover convertible roof damage (!), and if they got the seats, they may as well write my car off.

          Added an active security system after that, but that just made me a victim.

          Get insurance.

          • Vernon Michael Gardner

            Member
            August 2, 2022 at 8:26 pm

            Porsche used to put those stickers on/near their ignition systems on the 911’s.

  • Joshua Rosen

    Member
    July 31, 2022 at 7:23 am

    If I was you I’d move. If you are so worried about someone disassembling your car then you must live in a terrible neighborhood, the solution to that is to move to a better one.

  • Harry Parker

    Moderator
    July 31, 2022 at 9:32 am

    Get some locking hub nuts for the wheels to prevent both the wheel and the motor from being removed, if you park in that kind of neighborhood. Better yet, don’t park where cars get stripped.

  • Bob Loblaw

    Member
    August 25, 2022 at 5:45 am

    Its a valid point I think. I found this post because I have the same concern. Especially considering some of the answers here ‘Maybe the thieves wont know there is a motor in the wheel’ and ‘You should move house’.

    Catalytic converter theft is rampant here in Europe. They jack the car and use powered cutting tools to remove the chunk of exhaust. Trying to think of solutions I would like to see (some suggested above)..

    1) Make the wheel motor worthless if removed. Yes – I think the parts will still be worth something though even if there is some sort of software/firmware lock.

    2) Alarm. Yes it would help

    3) Make it hard to cut. An exhaust is easy to cut.

    4) Make the front axel retractable : ) Probably not viable, nice feature though? compact parking/storage/meeting something on a narrow lane

    It will be interesting to see if/how they address the concern

    • Michael Rohan

      Member
      August 25, 2022 at 4:18 pm

      Yes interesting to see how or if they deal with it, but I think definitely doable with some combination of measures.

      I haven’t experienced cat theft yet, or major theft of any kind, knock on wood, but security in general is a concern. People who suggest moving I think are just out of touch with how difficult that can be for some; sometimes the best you can do is mitigate crime where you are at. Even nice neighborhoods are targets for theft because 1) nicer things 2) ‘soft’ people less willing to fight a criminal directly. And that’s also moot because your vehicle is mobile; at home it may be safe but the moment you go downtown to go to a ball game or wherever else it may not be.

  • Frank Chandler

    Member
    August 25, 2022 at 7:47 pm

    Yeah, removal of a wheel could be a real problem if one lived in the wrong section of Detroit or Lost Angeles. To put it into perspective, how many sets of wheels have people hijacked from your cars? All that is necessary to remove your existing wheels is a simple socket or lug wrench. I’ve been driving for 65 years and have never, ever had a wheel stolen. Then again, I’ve never lived in Detroit. I have, however, spent many a night in Lost Angeles.

    Also, it will be at least a couple of years (2028? <;=D) before
    Apteras become so common that there would be a market for a stolen
    driver motor wheel. As things stand, a thief would put a lot of effort
    into absconding with something that would instantly identify him as the
    crook when he tried to sell it.

    Considering that the motors are expensive, Aptera might want to consider special nuts requiring internal wavy-circle crenellated sockets (or something equally exotic). Could even set up individually coded patterns, similar to ignition keys, so that someone can’t just go to the nearest Grand Auto and buy one. Probably worth more to marketing as a point of risk management than it will ever be in reality.

    I think you’re inventing a problem that won’t exist for all practical purposes, similar to the likelihood of dying from listeria poisoning from eating fresh salads.

    • Curtis Cibinel

      Member
      August 25, 2022 at 7:59 pm

      You can buy security nuts at Walmart for $20. Not sure if some more premium ones have more difficult/unique patterns but it should be an effective option. This is a 10 minute job.

      • John Voules

        Member
        August 25, 2022 at 8:18 pm

        Security lug nuts are fairly easily defeated. If someone is in the business of stealing electric motors it would just be delaying them only slightly. Don’t ask how I know.

  • Kirk Robbins

    Member
    August 26, 2022 at 2:54 pm

    Theft period is a concern!

  • Joshua Rosen

    Member
    August 26, 2022 at 4:26 pm

    How many thieves know what a wheel motor is? I can’t imagine why a car thieve would target an Aptera. There is no market for parts, it’s so unusual that there will be no domestic market for a stolen car, and because it’s an EV with North America specific charging ports there is no international market for it either. If a Camry gets stolen the police can’t put out a bulletin to look for a Camry because they are all over the place, if an Aptera gets stolen they can put out a bulletin to look for a car that looks like a space ship.

    • Kevin Bradbury

      Member
      August 26, 2022 at 6:11 pm

      @Joshua Rosen – “How many thieves know what a wheel motor is? I can’t imagine why a car thieve would target an Aptera.”

      I would never have thought about cutting a catalytic converter off a vehicle and selling it to a scrap yard because the metals in it are so valuable. That was until it made the local evening news because it was happening so frequently. It just takes one who knows a little bit more than the average bear to teach the rest.

      The posters on this thread are concerned about meth heads stealing the motors to sell to the scrap yards. Bright orange cables will give a strong hint of electrical components containing copper.

      We’ve even had thieves steal the copper wiring out of the lights along the interstate until they started replacing it with aluminum wiring.🙄

  • Mark Salyzyn

    Member
    September 2, 2022 at 4:43 am

    The Elaphe site is focussed on partnership, and not individual customers, I could not find a support channel with downloadable Service Manuals.

    Deep searches, and downloads, were completely unrelated, or junk. For instance apparently Mitsubishi uses some of the same designations in their Meldar line of servo controllers.

    Does anyone have, or know where to get, a service or engineering manual for the Elaphe motors and control electronics? Any model will do, their in-service equipment will undoubtedly have similar repair and maintenance issues, and I can extrapolate from there.

  • Abraham Hanna

    Member
    September 21, 2022 at 11:57 am

    https://in-wheel.com/en/solutions-2/direct-drive-in-wheel-motors/https://in-wheel.com/en/solutions-2/direct-drive-in-wheel-motors/

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 1 day ago by  John Trotter. Reason: Expand title for clarity
    • This reply was modified 1 week, 1 day ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.
  • Vernon Sinnott

    Member
    September 21, 2022 at 12:05 pm

    Elaphe stated they are adapting an in wheel motor especially for Aptera but I am certain it’s am M700.

  • Lane Costilow

    Member
    September 21, 2022 at 1:46 pm

    During the factory tour, Mr Anthony pointed out the Elaphe motor set out for display as being the final version for production:

    • Dennis Swaney

      Member
      September 21, 2022 at 4:59 pm

      Anyone know the lug spacing? It is obviously 5x?

    • Kimberly Wilson

      Member
      September 21, 2022 at 8:14 pm

      Those lugs do not appear to be threaded?

      • kerbe2705

        Member
        September 21, 2022 at 10:05 pm

        @Kimberly Wilson – the motor displayed during the factory tour and at Fully Charged Live was a non-functioning prototype.

  • Anoop Patel

    Member
    September 23, 2022 at 5:40 pm

    Are the hub motors optimized to run at certain speeds/rpm? In the AWD variant, was it ever considered to put low rpm optimized motors up front and one high rpm optimized motor in the rear? All the effort put into lowering wind resistance only comes into play at high speed. Range on the other hand seems to be ideal in stop and go (low speed) environments where there really isn’t much benefit to the aerodynamic design. Having one motor most efficient running at 65mph would seem to have real benefits extending range for highway driving.

    I guess a better question to start with is whether all three motors are identical. Would be great from a logistics and manufacturing perspective and any motor could be swapped with another. If they are all different then I could see the benefits of optimizing the motors for different speeds.

    • This reply was modified 6 days, 15 hours ago by  Anoop Patel.
    • This reply was modified 6 days, 15 hours ago by  Anoop Patel.
    • This reply was modified 6 days, 5 hours ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.
  • Steve Wanamaker

    Member
    September 24, 2022 at 1:04 am

    From the videos I have seen by Aptera Owners Club it appears that the sweet spot for the motors is highway speeds.

    • John Voules

      Member
      September 24, 2022 at 3:27 pm

      Steve Wanamaker…highway speed is when APTERA truly takes advantage of its aerodynamics. I am hoping that mph of 70 will give great return and not significantly deplete battery to be close to their maximum stated range.

Viewing 101 - 120 of 120 replies

or to reply.

Original Post
0 of 0 posts June 2018
Now