Integrated Car Sharing

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Integrated Car Sharing

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Integrated Car Sharing

  • Integrated Car Sharing

     George Hughes updated 8 months ago 6 Members · 16 Posts
  • Jesse Palmer

    November 1, 2021 at 7:44 pm

    I was just checking out the Sono Sion and one of their more interesting features was an integrated app that facilitated ride sharing as well as car sharing/rentals. Aptera goes a long way to solving the inefficiency issues of moving the car from point A to B, but nothing for the inefficiency of single person car ownership. Would anyone else like to see this as option? I can see a future where you’ve got a few Apterae parked on every block and there’s no need for most people to own one.

  • my_discord_number_is_0328 bloody stupid

    November 1, 2021 at 7:58 pm

    yes its like free uber but im not sure if its also for other cars. open source would be cool, like comma ai. of course open source would make it much easier to trust software from hitman targeting customers or the whole userbase etc, people review code for fun.

    The Right To Repair Movement

  • Joshua Rosen

    November 2, 2021 at 7:25 am

    There is nothing inefficient about single person car ownership. A car has a certain number of miles in it, using those miles up in a couple of years as a taxi vs 10-15 years as private car doesn’t make any difference. The car is going to cover the same amount of ground in it’s life time either way.

    • Lou Verner

      November 2, 2021 at 9:42 am

      Joshua, consider the overall environmental cost. Yes, total would be same spread out among 5 cars or all on one, but ride sharing/co-ownership of one vehicle would mean 4 less vehicles manufactured and maintained, 4 less vehicles taking up space. If it works for a community, it would be better overall for environment.

      • Curtis Cibinel

        November 2, 2021 at 9:56 am

        Absolutely agree. Right now logistics, social attitudes, and a certain virus makes this impractical but true FSD will largely do away with the need for vehicle ownership long term. Also if the battery is the only thing that goes bad and it takes 1 million+ miles traditional automotive thinking on using the car up no longer applies. Per the other thread it is plausible that replacement batteries as tech improves will be cheaper and easier. With safety systems reducing crashes and batteries lasting automotive planned obsolescence can die. Tesla and others (ie Aptera) wont play along with artificially sabotaging their own products to boost sales.
        For now making EVs with as minimal carbon footprint (ie light, small battery, efficient) as possible is a good step. The time it will take to make level 4/5 and get it past regulators is probably 15-20 years out and this will see the death of most automotive ownership.

      • Joshua Rosen

        November 2, 2021 at 10:07 am

        No it doesn’t make a difference. When you manufacture a car it will stay on the road until it wears out in a certain number of miles, that could take 2 years as a ride share vehicle or 20 years as a personal vehicle. It doesn’t matter who uses those miles, one owner, multiple sequential owners or hundreds of ride sharing passengers, it’s the same number of miles per car. Building a car every two years for 20 years or building 10 cars that stay on the road for 20 years is the same thing, it’s 10 cars either way.

        As for taking up space, that’s irrelevant. Ride sharing doesn’t reduce the number of cars that are on a highway at anyone time, that’s determined by the trips people need to take. As for parked cars, also irrelevant, there is plenty of space for parking spots. In places where there isn’t space, Manhattan for example, people don’t own cars now, they take taxis.

        • Lou Verner

          November 2, 2021 at 10:26 am

          We may have to agree to disagree…but one more try. My take is an extension of the argument to keep any major purchase (car, appliance, etc) as long as serviceable vs trading in for new one every year or so. A vehicle such as Aptera may well have 20+ year lifetime (perhaps with changeout of battery), not 2 years as you suggest, regardless of number of trips taken. Especially relevant if community isn’t logging 100+ miles/day, as would be the case in urban situation. Furthermore, in your scenario, there would be 10 cars sitting idle most of time (still taking up space somewhere!) and incurring inevitable wear and degradation regardless of use. Kinda goes back to the 3 Rs – Reduce, reuse, recycle. With the first being most important and least often emphasized. That’s all from me!

          • Joshua Rosen

            November 2, 2021 at 2:19 pm

            My two year number was for ride sharing, extrapolating from the number of miles a NYC taxi does in a year, 70,000. The absolute most I’ve ever gotten out of a car is 123,000, over 11 years, before it had to be towed away. I’ve always bought a new car once a decade and then driven it until it had to be towed away. I will concede that cars can get a few more miles if they are driven longer distances per year because the other limiting factor is the time it takes for them to rot which is about 10 years where I live (New England), in California you see cars on the road that would have turned to dust decades ago where I live, those cars may be on their sixth owner but it doesn’t matter. My point is that they have a finite life and it doesn’t matter how that life is divided up.

  • George Hughes

    November 2, 2021 at 5:04 pm

    The car market, which is a subset of the transportation market, is in chaos because of the unknown impact of car sharing, particularly among the younger demographics.

    This youth market, not coincidentally, is the traditional market that drove personal transportation.

    Not so much now for a variety of reasons including the urbanization of the youth who are congregating more in cities. Cities are more dense both in services, population and transportation alternatives. These are the markets where car ownership is changing toward shared ownership/shared use from personal transportation.

    It is what is left of that personal transportation market that Aptera makes its pitch. This is where the 1000 mile range, 0-60 in < 3.5 sec, self-powering/never-charge capable, safe, rustproof, styling, etc. are the holy grail.

    I may be an outlier here, but I think the ‘social’ aspects of Aptera can be a massive driver. Is there some function or sets of functions, thinking out of the box, that someone can conjure that is like the secret sauce?

    I think there is. One part is a dedicated digital sound and voice channel with a relatively short range that could transmit to a nearby – five or ten car lengths – both driver and/or passenger communications to another Aptera.

    The second needed capability is the ability to turn any Aptera into a ‘powered, remote controlled trailer’ or lead/drive car. There are already self-powered trailers designed to follow an EV and mimic the movements of the lead car.

    Hooking up has been a ‘thing’ for a loooong time 🙂 … but Aptera has the possibility to be the first car to really do so (car on car). Do know, though, that the RV’s would go bonkers if they could physically and electronically attach an Aptera to their land yachts.

    It actually makes sense to take two Aptera on ‘vacation’ for a family of four as the energy consumed is still less (kwh) than any common five-seat sedan and having two vehicles as your destination is a real luxury, not to mention increased cargo.

    It is going to be practical, cool features like this that appear to be out of the box that will excite things.

    Being the first vehicle that possesses the ability to be a self-powered trailer that follows a lead has implications for sales to RV owners but becomes a tool for transporting Aptera from the factory to buyers. Follow me, trailer mode or whatever you would call it would be an end-run to full self driving – that big question that muddles car buying in the short term – because if you have FSD pulling a trailer; while the trailer isn’t full self-driven, it is full self-powered and follows like a puppy.

    Check the link and just ponder the possibilities.

    • Curtis Cibinel

      November 2, 2021 at 5:30 pm

      Vehicle to vehicle comms as a random social aspect will be questionable. I get the social family marketing angle but that’s something that can come from an community and a brand shouldn’t force (ie not like the saturn family from the 90s). Owners groups and such will come about.

      Regarding virtual trailer mode I think it’s something that has legal and technical hurtles still. The first use of the tech will likely be chains of big rigs not rv/car. Towing an Aptera behind a rv will likely need a full flatbed.

      A 5 seater coop based on the current design is definitely something that would have value because most car buyers have kids or imagine they need passenger room far more often than they do. A stretched Aptera with no frunk (weight balance) and a stiffer suspension should work and hopefully will be their 2nd vehicle.

      • my_discord_number_is_0328 bloody stupid

        November 2, 2021 at 6:39 pm
      • George Hughes

        November 3, 2021 at 2:49 am

        Actually, you can thank the farmers … but trailer use is the kind of use that is not terribly regulated in much of fly-over America.

        You’ve got to have a ‘hitch’ and a safety chain and a platform that rolls straight but for the most part there is little regulation. In many states, you don’t even have to have a running light if operated in daylight. If you have working signals, you’re golden.

        And you’re right, it is silly to have inter-vehicle communication unless you have the ability to pull a second, light weight, self-powered vehicle with you.

        The reason I bring these kinds of opportunities up is because when I see the Aptera, I see a vehicle that can be the all-around, go-to vehicle that can be adapted for many applications.

        The point is trailering is an established, literally old-school innovation. It is inconceivable that full self driving, and some of the assisted driving modes represent pretty high level of machine intellegence. Said a little differently, if an ‘intelligent’ car can do all those things literally approaching self-driving, it ought to be plenty smart enough to follow a lead vehicle.

        This is primarily a software challenge.

        Because we don’t know and second, because the tradition in private business is to be proprietary – except of course in the realm of open source software – but then, I believe at least portions of the software that runs Aptera are written in open source (Linux).

        I’d suggest there are a half-dozen folks who have an Aptera on order could write at least some rudimentary code to do the suggested task.

        • Curtis Cibinel

          November 3, 2021 at 8:55 am

          Just because the infotainment runs on Linux does not mean the driving interface can be modified. Their Ui is proprietary and software holds to insert your own programs or widgets is by no means certain. It might even have code signing making manipulation even using assembly to alter it impossible. I really doubt we can expect an ability to add code. Even if we can add code we don’t know of the wifi is intended for another purpose and it would need to constantly reconfiguring since it would since I doubt it could act as a mesh (hardware limitations) and one car would need to be the master and the other the slave.

          • George Hughes

            November 3, 2021 at 11:49 am

            You take the code too seriously in this. It is nice and it needs to work properly and all, but presumably the master in this situation is not the hardware, but the people who buy a product to fulfill a need. To quote Rhett Butler, frankly I don’t give a damn about the rules that presumably prohibit a good idea.

            I subscribe to the NYT tech newsletter and today it was talking about transportation and brought up the notion, that rather than spending all we are on self-driving, we might consider light electrified rail as a more rational option of moving people cheaply. It would work for some.

            Another was the understanding of things like zoning ordinances that segregate businesses, manufacturing and residential locations by prohibiting, say houses or apartments on the third floor of the local mall.

            The talisman or is it amulet that Aptera folks have in their grasp is the most efficient form of automotive transportation cobbled together relatively efficiently and we get to bring it to market in a time when people are beginning to question the construct of cars in general as a form of mass transit … and cars are losing every day on the stalled freeways.

            The Big Secret about self driving cars is not that they will navigate you in exquisite space far from the nearest neighbor on the freeway like an ‘egg in a nest’ – but allow for more dense use of the roadway at higher speeds because a whole squad of cars are traveling in unison with minimal setbacks from other cars.

            Master/slave kinds of arrangements with cars that are not FSD but are capable of being remotely controlled to fall into line, mean that if only one in ten cars is FSD, and you allow 10-car trains; you got all cars being piloted with FSD.

            The good news?

            Not all the rules are going to change; just some of them. To quote Aldous Huxley, “It is a brave new world” we are entering.

            Aptera is starting out with that magnificent first play … if you want top efficiency in a car, you drop a wheel … Actually a very revolutionary thought.

            • Curtis Cibinel

              November 3, 2021 at 12:06 pm

              My comment was in regard to creating a open radio between apteras not the virtual trailer concept.
              “Virtual trailer” as a feature is very much more a regulatory one than technical. This concept both technical and regulatory lobbying will be handled by the tesla semi so they can make a convoy with 1 driver; RV drivers can inherit the benefits of their work eventually.

              FYI: I am a software developer with 20 years experience in networking including drivers and kernel level. The hardware and lockouts directly affects the viability of a concept.

            • George Hughes

              November 3, 2021 at 4:42 pm

              Tractor-trailer rigs that weigh over what, 20 tons, are subject to much greater regulation than are those available for smaller vehicles. Hell, Harbor Freight will sell you a folding trailer that can carry a half-ton of cargo for $500 that you put together.

              Big trucks – semi’s etc. have entire police forces dedicated to their regulation largely because we all know you can put 60 tons in a 40 ton rig and get it to point B … you just leave crumbling concrete on the road behind you and since you don’t pay that much for your tag(s), the state will make you pay another way. One of those other ways is through civil torts and boy, the insurance on a big rig is quite expensive, as are the liability limits.

              So even with Tesla being valued at a over a trillion dollars, I understand that Elon Musk, against whom a plaintiff might win a mega judgment, has to have every ‘t’ crossed and period in place before he ventures there.

              If your really smart, you understand that is why big companies cease to be innovative in many cases … they have too much and they risk it all. Seems meaningless when you’re a startup but with the ticker pointing to the trillions … there’s just too much at risk. Sad commentary on the benefits of success.

              Still, in the real world there are laws. Those laws regarding pull-a-long trailers say you can use them provided they meet the requirements of the law as to being securely tethered and connected by a tow chain in the event of hitch failure, and has a light on it near its end.

              If it meets those requirements it is legal to pull and whether or not you augment that pull with a rubber-band motor or an in-wheel motor really shouldn’t be a concern of the state or else they’d specifically prohibited it, which they may have in California.

              Still, since it is legal to tow a car on all wheels and it is legal to pull a trailer on two it would only stand to reason that you could pull a trailer with three wheels and if you can do that legally, you can pull and Aptera presumably with another Aptera.

              Then you wrote:

              FYI: I am a software developer with 20 years experience in networking including drivers and kernel level. The hardware and lockouts directly affects the viability of a concept.

              I kind of gather that and in a sense I’m lobbying under the flag of right to repair (and improve) that there be a benign attitude toward blocking such routines. If security is a concern, put the pertinent switches behind a security wall and sell a special dongle that you plug into a USB port and all of a sudden, you have access.

              Just like the software companies that opened APIs for apps everywhere, you create a software developer environment for those who want to do cool things with your platform.

              To me, it is the innovations from the dog package to camper to ‘a six wheel’ solution that is going to ultimately be the ‘secret sauce’ that will ultimately turn Aptera into the icon it could become.

              I’m just lobbying to keep those doors open.

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