Interior Climate control (HVAC, heat, AC)

[GNiessen]

Given the 9 month delay to get financing and setup production, is it possible that the Heat Pump might be doable again? I seemed to think it was just that it was taking some time to get a provider ramped up for it.

[glenn-zajic]

Not knowing much about exactly how they work, I wish the more knowledgeable on this forum would speak about this. Was well over a year ago when C.A. stated that it takes a couple years to design a reversing valve. I don’t get that at all. They already exist. Is it that precision that it has to be customized for each application? Either way, it should be well down the progress ladder by now IMO.

[Biker]

@GLENN ZAJIC when that comment was made, I think it was in the context of “we won’t pursue that at all until this iteration of the Aptera is produced” – it wasn’t “we will start now and it will be available in two years”.

The current HVAC system (I assume lifted directly from some Chery design) will likely march on for quite some time.

[chris-hale]

Interesting to note that I just watched a video on YouTube called throwback Thursday interviewing Steve ambro back in 2010 showing off the first aptera. He went into great detail about the technical aspects of the car including suspension, drive train. And even the dash board. Including using three small screens in front of the driver showing left, rear view and right rear view cameras along with showing vehicle status including speed and other information. Than a larger screen for infotainment. He then talked about the ac and heat using a HEAT PUMP. SO IF THEY COULD DO IT BACK IN 2010 WHY CANNOT DO IT NOW. Actually I liked the way they designed it back in 2010 than their current design. Come on Steve you’re forgetting about all of the great ideas you had back then. I would put a link to this s video but I’m too tech stupid to be able to do it.

[bulent-aliev]

People keep talking how well the honeycomb cabin material is a good insulator, which is correct. I have built and flown composite aircraft from scratch. But now with the hew carbon fiber shells that will be produced in Italy, all that thermal insulation advantage will be lost.

Unless I’m missing something?

[Mike-Mars]

It’ll still be an extremely good insulator, compared to steel. But also remember, the CF is mostly on the inside, with fibreglass on the outside. It’s the exterior panels which are mostly relevant when it comes to insulation.

[harry-parker]

I’ve seen videos of stamped chopped carbon fiber composite skins with a resin infused honeycomb core. So one doesn’t preclude the other. Don’t know what aptera is planning to use, but it could still have a honeycomb core in its body panels with lightweight and good insulating properties.

[john-buss]

I remember reading about Nissan Leaf heat pumps in forums (I have resistance heat) and I discovered the heat pump does not run in the cold and switches to resistance heat; I’m in the north so I do not consider “cold” to be the optimal heat pump range; to me, that is so warm I never even turn on the heat. This is why I didn’t get a heat pump when it was an option. I would hope Aptera makes the heat pump optional in the future and tells people like myself that it’s not worth the weight and expense for people like me.

[Riley]

I hope aptera selects a commonly available filter element shape/size for the ability to install an aftermarket Hepa filter upgrade.

[Pistonboy]

The belly pan on the bottom of the vehicle can not dissipate the heat from DC charging. Will it be able to dissipate the heat from the AC while parked? There is no condenser in front of a radiator to remove AC heat. The heat will instead have to be removed by the cooling liquid, the same liquid cooling the battery during charging and the belly pan is trying to cool.

Is it possible the AC heat can not be removed while the vehicle is stationary and we will be told the AC will only work while the vehicle is moving and air is moving across the belly pan surface?

Also, where does rain water go when it runs down the windshield while parked? I have not seen any drain tube or hole under the vehicle. pb202301

[DesertSkies]

Maybe I am an idiot, but all I am able to discover about an A/C system for the Aptera, on this forum and elsewhere, is pure speculation about what *might* be included in the final production vehicle. Yet the vehicle is supposedly going into production quite soon (??). I have yet to find any hard-core trustworthy information coming directly from Aptera itself to indicate *precisely* what kind of climate control the vehicle *will* (or will not) have.

I live in Palm Springs, California, where the ambient temperature is routinely in excess of 110 degrees Fahrenheit *EVERY DAY* between early June and mid September, and it quite often remains above 100 even at night in August. And the sun is relentless … as its ability to heat up the interior of even a moving, ventilated, and *well-insulated* vehicle. Unless Aptera has made a determination to forego markets where the temperatures are well above the US national average, it seems to me that they need to include *detailed* information about the A/C (and heating) system in ALL of their promotional materials, and that information should be prominently displayed and easily discoverable. It should also be reliable rather than vague assurances of what will ‘likely’ be. I am currently reluctant to get very excited about the Aptera simply because I cannot find any assurance that a climate control system adequate for my environment will be included. All I can find is vague assurances that some kind of A/C system will be included, with zero indication as to the operating limits of that system.

[Sam]

Not type but range is here at about 11:05

https://www.youtube.com/live/8vZHsqCgsDg?feature=share

[DesertSkies]

Yes, that video states that the interior temperature “comfort” settings range will be between 60 and 90 degrees. But that does not directly address the issue of operating parameters for the A/C unit. Will it have sufficient operating capacity to cool the interior to 80 degrees F if the ambient air temperature is 115 degrees and the road surface temperature is 150+ degrees? Cooling a vehicle in the temperate coastal Carlsbad/San Diego climate is an altogether different proposition than is cooling that same vehicle in the extremely hot climate of the inland desert. Enquiring minds want to know ….

[boz-oclown]

It’s getting warmer these days and I wonder how hot will my Aptera get while parted in the sun.

It’s certainly feasible to have some sort of cooling of the interior while parked. The least should be to run a fan to push out hot air and allow cooler air to enter. And I’m guessing running the A/C while parked wouldn’t be unrealistic. Hopefully these considerations were part of Aptera’s climate control development.

• This reply was modified 1 year ago by  Boz O'Clown.
• This reply was modified 12 months ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.

[len]

If you have been following this topic

… One of the features of the solar is to vent the interior air..

I live the sunniest part if the SW and I tint my windows.

I will have a Full Solar Aptera so the hatch will be opaque from the solar cells.

You could try to source a solar windshield screen that connects straight down so not to block the dash solar cells.

[NapalmCricket]

Seems like that would be a nice accessory for Aptera to add. A full solar windshield screen that adds to the solar charging, and keeps the vehicle cooler when it is parked in the sun.

[BigSky]

Don’t mean to sound like Captain Obvious here, but all of that solar with capture a lot of what would have otherwise heated up your car.

• This reply was modified 1 year ago by  Steven Montana.
• This reply was modified 12 months ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.

[alain-chuzel]

Very roughly, on the order of 20% of the Sunlight that will be hitting the solar cells will be converted to electrical power but ~80% won’t. Much of that 80% will be converted to thermal power. In other words, the solar panels will be quite warm. If the backs of the solar panels are thermally isolated from the cabin then no problem.

[wingsounds13]

The idea of solar started with the original Aptera 2 and was added to run the cabin fan while parked to keep the vehicle cooler.

As another member mentioned in their response, I intend to make a sunscreen to fit from the top of the windshield to the back of the dash. It will be reflective as many are and in addition to keeping the excess solar energy out of the cabin should also increase the output of the solar panel on the dash. More light energy equals more power output. It would be nice if Aptera could have a custom sunscreen made to fit their vehicle so we wouldn’t have to make our own. Surely some sunscreen manufacturer would be interested and a little help from Aptera could get the fit and function to be the most efficient. No problem for some of us but outside the skill set of many.

• This reply was modified 1 year ago by  J.P. Morere.

[len]

Aptera had said “ In General” they will share their vehicle’s AutoCads so after-market accessories could be made by manufactures that specialize on what they make.

Aptera wants to focus on the vehicle

[parkflieyahoo-com]

How much will using the air conditioner or heater drain the Aptera’s battery? Has anyone figured out the miles lost?

[Kamakiri]

The answer really depends how you use the AC. The maximum power consumption will depend the the system sizing…which we don’t know. While AC isn’t rocket science, some simple science and engineering can be applied to estimate the cost of typical power consumption against mileage. What people need to hope is that a large enough system is installed to handle the temperature extremes they expect to see. There is nothing worse in a vehicle than an undersized AC system.

Without presenting numbers for the internet to argue about…My estimates and expectation is that if you are using AC on a temperate sunny day for anything longer than short stops to go get groceries, that your average trip AC power consumed won’t exceed the output of the full solar setup (AC is ‘free’ and still getting some charge to the main pack). Fan cooling when stationary should keep the AC from needing to do a long 100% duty cycle to cool the car down to your selected temp. That will always be the time of highest consumption and if your trips are shorter than say double that time, the relative ‘mileage lost’ will be highest per unit of time. So in areas that see extreme temps, I would hope and expect a suitably sized system to be able drain some range even with the full solar setup when AC is running at over say 50% duty cycle. I would characterize that loss in mph charge ‘minimal’ and ‘worth it’.

[wingsounds13]

This is a really big question and the answer is that nobody outside Aptera knows. Given the great efficiency of the vehicle cabin conditioning is almost certain to have a greater impact on range than other (less efficient) vehicles. Partially ameliorating the cost of heating/cooling is the fact that the composite body is a slightly better insulator than the metal bodies of most other cars. The original honeycomb fiberglass body would have been a considerably better insulator, but that is in the past. I do wish that they would do something to improve the R-value of the shell, but that would add cost and weight.

There are things that they could do to reduce the energy cost of heating and cooling, like heated and ventilated seats and a heated steering wheel. We may get the heated and possibly ventilated seats but so far it seems to be a hard no to the heated wheel. This is a disappointment because even if used only a few weeks a year a heated wheel is a near luxury in cold weather that also makes cooler cabin temperatures more tolerable. I see this as an efficiency booster and I hope that eventually they do too.

[boz-oclown]

It’s getting warmer these days and I wonder how hot will my Aptera get in the sun.

It’s certainly feasible to have some sort of cooling of the interior while parked in the sun. The least should be to run a fan to push out hot air and allow cooler air to enter. And I’m guessing running the A/C while parked wouldn’t be unrealistic. Hopefully these considerations were part of Aptera’s climate control development.

[wingsounds13]

Running the cabin fan while parked was what got Aptera started down the road to Solar charging. They put a small solar panel on the roof to run the cabin fan on the original Aptera back in 2008. With the reincarnation of Aptera in 2019, the advances in batteries, electronics and solar panels provided them an opportunity to go full electric and expand the solar to charge the big battery. They never lost the idea of ventilating the interior while parked, they just added more capability.

Hopefully their phone app will include the ability to remotely engage the AC to precondition the vehicle as you are headed toward it. No need to run the AC all the time it’s parked unless you left your pet inside.

[Kamakiri]

It’s curious that you made the exact same post 6 months ago…

I think the LE will have the ability to keep the passenger compartment cool considering its body construction and the misc cooling hardware that has been described throughout the vehicle. I think people might be pleasantly surprised as more details are finalized and more Production Intent information is released or specified.

[Ace-Dave]

I know that the solar panels on the dash are for cabin ventilation to keep the interior at the ambient outside temperature while parked, but what about in the winter when it is freezing outside? Will it cool the interior to freezing, or can you turn off the ventilation system so the sun warms the interior?

[Kamakiri]

“I know that the solar panels on the dash are for cabin ventilation”

You misunderstood how the solar panels work and that of the HVAC system functionality. The dash solar panel, like all the others on the vehicle, supply power to charge the traction battery – there’s no direct interaction with the HVAC system. Also, when Aptera mentions the HVAC system maintaining ambient temperature, it means the desired temperature inside the vehicle, not outside.

[paul-schultz]

We know that Aptera is going with a resistive heating system and not a heat pump. But there are different options in this area. Will Aptera use a simple resistive heating element with an air blower? Or, will it be a closed coolant loop with an electric coolant heater and a separate heater core? The latter is what is in my Chevy Bolt. I am not sure which is the most efficient between these two resistive heating options.

This question came up for me since my Bolt takes a huge range drop in the winter (Michigan) with use of cabin heating. If I try to skimp on heating I have a long, uncomfortably cold commute. And, every 5 minutes I am toggling on/off the defrost to clear frost off the windshield. Even doing this, I have a 10-13% battery use just for heating. So, I am currently in the process of adding a diesel hydronic heater under the hood and tapping into the heating coolant loop so that I can switch to heating with the diesel heater and not use the OEM resistive heating element. This provides heating without use of the HV battery and results in better cabin comfort and increased range (due to decreased energy loss via the electric HVAC). If Aptera opts for the coolant loop method there could be an option for those in extreme winter regions to add a similar system. These have actually been OEM options in cold climates for major vendors such as GM in some of their bigger vehicles (pickups). The technology is not new and is safe and a reasonable option for those with long cold commutes.

I wish they could have been able to develop a heat pump for the initial Aptera design!

[harry-parker]

Whoa! Although the first 400 nominal mile range Launch Edition Apteras will be produced wiithout a heat pump, a heat pump is in the plans for future Apteras. Not sure if a heat pump will be added before or after the 600 mile Aptera is in production

Either of these later models would be safer, simpler and cleaner than adding an after market diesel heater! 😬

In any case, even if an 400 mile range Aptera with the heater on full on a frigid night has a 30% range drop, it would still have more range than a 260 mile range Chevy Bolt on a beautiful, warm day with no heater being used. And your Aptera will have a faster fast charging rate, too.