Internet connectivity

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Internet connectivity

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Internet connectivity

  • Internet connectivity

  • Jacob Bunce

    Member
    November 14, 2021 at 10:56 am

    Does the car have internet connectivity? (ie cellular modem)

    If yes, can it be removed or disabled?

  • Joshua Rosen

    Member
    November 14, 2021 at 11:11 am

    Internet connectivity isn’t optional for any modern car. OTAs require an Internet connection by definition. Navigation requires connectivity and so does service. One thing they should do that Tesla doesn’t do anymore is allow OTAs over cellular. I’ve seen discussions on Tesla forums from people who can’t easily provide WiFi access to their cars, for those people being able to do updates via the cell network would be great.

  • Jacob Bunce

    Member
    November 14, 2021 at 5:42 pm

    All of that is false. But even assuming features like navigation, etc require internet connectivity, I don’t need or want those features, which leads to my second question… can it be removed or disabled?

    I must assume the car can function without connectivity. For example, if driving through a dead zone. Therefore I would simply want to ensure it is always disconnected.

    Let’s be clear… I am mainly concerned about forced, factory installed, cellular data service in the car. Wifi is something else entirely and doesn’t bother me as much because I can (presumably) just not select any networks.

    • Peter Jorgensen

      Member
      November 15, 2021 at 7:37 am

      Yep, Teslas just don’t get updates or anything when in a dead zone – but they still function fine. I’d also like to be able to disable it, although I may not if I want to use the app to pre-heat the car with my phone. Of course my phone is listening too so…

  • Raj Giandeep

    Member
    November 14, 2021 at 6:34 pm

    I would hope you could download maps to be offline for the states you plan or routinely travel in. I don’t wan to pay for another data plan or use data for the car regularly. Perhaps a maker series in the future would cover this.

  • Curtis Cibinel

    Member
    November 14, 2021 at 7:52 pm

    I would hope that if we don’t have cellular for OTA and navigation that they can use a cellphone for this. As much as they are trying to be minimal I think Joshua is correct that it would be very odd not to have it. Modern cars are generally highly connected devices so if they avoid the use of direct cellular they will need to put substantial design effort into ensuring a good experience to download maps and check for OTA updates.

  • Russell Fauver

    Member
    November 14, 2021 at 8:36 pm

    I hope connectivity is optional. With so many things tracking, monitoring, listening, I don’t want to add yet another to the list of things that I can’t have nearby when I want to have a private conversation. While we’re on the subject of options, I’d like the self driving hardware to be optional too.

    • George Hughes

      Member
      November 15, 2021 at 1:33 pm

      I don’t think the operant word is ‘optional;’ rather I would suggest ‘switchable’ … i.e. you can turn it on or off.

      I know that early Leaf’s had level 2 connectivity that resulted in some being upgraded to cellular level 3. hope that cellular connection directly to the car, if it is not handled through one’s personal cell phone (I can turn it off) it can be switchable … i.e. it can be turned on or off.

      That said, most modern cars allow use of the users smart phone for may of the customized functions and have for close to a decade. Even my early production Spark EV (registered in Feb, 2013 in Detroit) could integrate with a spotify and its custom nav program ‘bringo.’ Of course, as a GM auto it has onstar but I ignore it.

      The big tech idea of following everyone and burrowing up their digital butts began with the smart phone and now, for those who use them, you are digitally captured by most everyone in big tech – your privacy be damned.

      I think if you’re concerned about privacy, car manufacturers are among those seeking to cash in, in general, on the privatized surveillance state that profits from predictive gaming.

      But if we are going to do anything about privacy, we’re going to have to set our sights higher than the automakers.

      I don’t expect Aptera to throw themselves on the privacy at all costs band wagon. I would hope simply they provide a switch to disable the constant surveillance if that is even possible.

  • Joshua Rosen

    Member
    November 15, 2021 at 10:35 am

    Internet connectivity can’t be optional, you need OTAs and they need to be able to access the diagnostic information on the car. When the car first starts shipping the software isn’t even going to be half baked, it’s going to be raw batter, it will need to be updated frequently. If you have a problem with the car you aren’t going to be able to take it to a dealer because they won’t have any. Their support is going to look at the logs in the car to see what’s going on, they need to do that remotely and that means Internet access.

    • Jacob Bunce

      Member
      November 15, 2021 at 10:55 am

      It’s a recursive and inane distinction. As if to say, software requires internet delivery if it requires internet delivery. That is not strictly necessary for software. You can do manual installs with other delivery methods. It all depends on the software architecture and deployment model.

      I am a computer scientist, programmer, and cyber security engineer. You have just stated the precise reason why I don’t want internet connectivity:

      “When the car first starts shipping the software isn’t even going to be half baked, it’s going to be raw batter, it will need to be updated frequently.”

      What you are essentially describing here is a CI/CD software model. In the industry, this model is basically an excuse for bad quality software. I don’t want bad software connected to the internet for security reasons (especially when that software can control my vehicle).

      Recognizing the dire state of the software industry, and the fact that these issues can’t be avoided, I choose not to use software features whenever possible. That means no self-driving, navigation, cloud music, etc.

      The fundamental point here is that the car can function in the middle of the desert with no cell service. That is exactly the level of software functionality I want. Nothing more.

      Worst case, maybe I can install a Faraday layer inside the shell.

      • Joshua Rosen

        Member
        November 15, 2021 at 2:59 pm

        Name a consumer system that isn’t getting frequent updates to fix bugs and add functionality. Your phone gets updates once a month, Linux systems get updates every few weeks as does Windows, Tesla’s get an updates every couple of weeks. I’ve been working on a system that controls the trades to stock markets, almost all high speed trades around the world go through our box. Both the hardware and software is constantly being updated to add new functionality that’s requested by the banks or to fix bugs. The only kind of systems that aren’t updated on a frequent basis are medical and defense.

        Doing manual installs on a consumer product in 2021 is ridiculous. Tesla has been doing it by OTA since they started shipping now all of the legacy companies are following.

        • Jacob Bunce

          Member
          November 15, 2021 at 3:41 pm

          Name a consumer system that isn’t getting frequent updates to fix bugs and add functionality.

          My 2014 Honda Civic has never received a software update. It seems to drive fine. You know what would be nice though… an electric drive train.

          I think we are off topic. But I approve of you continuing to argue that software sucks. That is a soapbox of mine and is an underlying reason why I don’t want internet in my car.

        • Llewellyn Evans

          Member
          November 22, 2021 at 12:49 am

          Software updates are a means to replace the bugs you know about with bugs you don’t know about.

      • David B Beal

        Member
        January 8, 2022 at 6:16 pm

        Im with you on this. I’d be “ok” if I could enable long enough when I’m not driving it, to do updates but I’d rather update via USB download via my computer where I have full control.

  • my_discord_number_is_0328 bloody stupid

    Member
    November 15, 2021 at 4:14 pm

    can update by have open source downloadable, so people can check for malware, and everyone uses teh same download so there no possible targeting specific customer.

  • Riley …

    Member
    November 15, 2021 at 7:36 pm

    I am sure it will be easy to find and remove the data antenna. Hopefully it isn’t the same antenna that supplies radio. I understand the argument for privacy and freedom. There is also an argument for important updates for safety. Were all adults and understand the risks.

    • kerbe2705

      Member
      November 15, 2021 at 8:36 pm

      Aptera won’t have a radio: They’ve made it very clear that they expect drivers to connect their smartphones to the infotainment system via Bluetooth for audio programming. It also won’t have Apple CarPlay or Android Auto – they expect drivers to use the built-in navigation system.

      • Curtis Cibinel

        Member
        November 15, 2021 at 8:46 pm

        Carplay and android auto they have mentioned but any idea where they said no radio (ie Q&A video, faq)? Personally I’m fine with no radio but I definitely know many people will have an issue with that. Have any other vehicles done away with the traditional radio?

        • John Malcom

          Member
          December 18, 2021 at 4:46 pm

          Curtis,

          The Canoo Lifestyle Vehicle going to production about the same time as the Aptera uses only the smart phone for entertainment, navigation Etc.

        • Ben Rypstra

          Member
          December 18, 2021 at 6:24 pm

          It would be interesting if the infotainment system could use external things for music. So a USB stick for music, or maybe an RTL-SDR for radio.

    • Llewellyn Evans

      Member
      November 22, 2021 at 12:31 am

      Removing the antenna from a receiver is ok, but it is “bad” to remove it from a transmitter. All that power that was going to be sending radio signals ends up as heat in the transmitter. Sooner or later it makes the magic blue smoke.

      RF nerds please correct me if I am wrong.

  • Robert Klasson

    Member
    November 15, 2021 at 10:58 pm

    If they want to sell the car in the EU, I think they would have to make it possible to block at least upload of data from the car due to GDPR. In fact, you’d probably have to ask the user before enabling upload, since the way I interpret GDPR, written consent is required before collecting and storing any personal data unless required for billing and such. They could probably get around it for the first owner by making it part of the purchase contract, but there is no way they could make it stick if the car was sold to a second owner.

    Personally, I’d like a connected car, but I’d also like to be in control of who has digital access to the car.

  • Russell Fauver

    Member
    November 19, 2021 at 7:42 pm

    In this day of mass surveillance and censorship, I don’t want a vehicle that can be driven by computer and controlled with voice commands or apps. I remember earlier this year when Google and Apple removed the Parler app from their sites and then I watched Amazon web services delete Parler from the internet completely, all due to their perception of something that might have happened on Parler’s social media site. While I may not agree with all things being said on all the different social media sites, I surely disagree with an entire platform being erased without investigation or conviction of a crime. So what happens if I’m in a fully connected self driving vehicle and Amazon Alexa decides that my private conversation does not agree with its political/social standards? Will the car take me somewhere that I don’t want to go? Maybe drive me into harms way? Maybe the algorithm will decide that I should be censored or deleted for something it thinks I said. Aw, poor Russell drove himself off a cliff. I know, it sounds like tinfoil hat stuff but if the hardware and software are installed then it is possible. And would the public ever know if the crash was caused by an outside actor or would it just get written off as an accident or suicide? We give big data corporations the power to do things for us, ‘Hey Google, drive me home’ and then we hope that they don’t abuse that power. I prefer those things are not installed in my vehicle, I don’t want to bet my life on big tech’s perceived goodness. And my phone has taught me that setting the software to ‘off’ does not necessarily mean it’s not listening and tracking. So it’s not a stretch to think that selecting ‘off’ from the menu of a self driving vehicle might not fully disable those functions.

    • my_discord_number_is_0328 bloody stupid

      Member
      November 19, 2021 at 8:17 pm

      thats why open sourcing the self driving software is worth it, everyone uses it lot of programmers can review it randomly just in case it sabotaged in favor for some private software. the microphone camera can have physical cover over it aftermarket to adapt to hardware, but people need to demand to be able to see it all. infotainment can be replaced with users phone, so one less device to put deafener on. https://aptera.us/community/discussion/all-about-the-alpha-interiors/

      same idea with right to repair. although repairng electric maybe possible (think it was rich rebuilds on youtube for ex.) i imagine freepiston would make it more repair friendly by not needing much of a battery if any at all with capacitor, but it can benefit from one as regen braking, maybe at least serve as unusual use range extender, maybe for different fuels too as its much more controlled combustion environment with changing piston length etc similar to nissan inline 4 in the infinity. its also arguably great balance between spending away battery material from beta and not very applied battery recycling, grid overload problem is solved, and itd be lot less weight for road maintaince costs in taxes and emissions. nissan nismo note E power already rather light weight with a less radical system. dont know but maybe “mental outlaw” on youtube

      electric drive is probably here to stay but energy storage can change from efuels to hydrogen to new electric etc.

      https://aptera.us/community/discussion/the-right-to-repair-movement-if-you-dont-know-now-you-know-the-daily-show/

  • Jacob Bunce

    Member
    November 21, 2021 at 4:11 pm
    • Joshua Rosen

      Member
      November 21, 2021 at 5:52 pm

      Every Tesla comes with a key card that fits in your wallet. It’s RFID so there is no battery to wear out unlike a key fob. The phone is an incredibly easy way to access the car, you walk up and the car unlocks and when you walk away it automatically locks. However phones aren’t completely reliable, the battery can run down for example. Everybody knows this which is why you would always carry the key card with you. Everybody has to have some place where they carry their drivers license, you keep the key card in the same place. I don’t believe that any Tesla drivers were stranded because of a server outage, all that would happen is that you won’t be able to remotely precondition the car or open or close the windows but you can always get in and drive the car with your key card.

  • Jacob Bunce

    Member
    December 18, 2021 at 1:43 pm
  • Francis Giroux

    Member
    December 18, 2021 at 4:22 pm

    I guess the correct original question should have been, “Will the Aptera have internet disconectivity?” Guy SKEER said in another forum section last week:

    For a WOMAN, a CellPhone is Actually a Sceptre – It Makes Her QUEEN of ALLLLL She Surveys.

    But, For a MAN, a Cellphone is but LEASH! I Don’t Need No Steeenkin’Leash!”

    I agree with him and I don’t carry around a steeenkin leash (cell phone). And I cycle in my velomobile many miles away from home almost every day, and still don’t carry a cell phone. I drive a 22 year old car (Honda Insight) and a 19 year old car (Prius), nothing online. I reserved an Aptera but if its going to be a steeenkin leash, I may give up the idea, or figure a way to disconnect from the leash. Here’s what I’m willing to do.

    I have wifi in my house just inside from where I have the best sun exposure. The car will sit there when I’m not driving it. If updates need to be done there are plenty of hours of connectivity. If I decide I don’t like automatic updates because the factory is messing with stuff I don’t want changed, I’ll move the wifi or park out in the field. I am not interested in carrying a cell phone just to lose my privacy. That’s why I don’t carry one now. Not because I am doing anything I am ashamed of, but because my Bible tells me about the coming end times when Christians and Patriots will be hunted down like criminals, and I want my privacy when that happens. In fact I may move the wifi anyway because someone might be able to tell when I am home when the car is parked, unless I am out in my pedal vehicle (picture in my profile, yellow contraption in front of me). I don’t want self driving, I know about uninterruptible autopilot on airliners that can be taken over from the ground, and if they can do it to an airplane, they can do it to an “online” car, which is why I would have never got a car with onstar. No phone, no “online,” no leash. If that means no Aptera or any other new car, then I pray my present cars last a long time.

    So, I guess I can take off my tinfoil hat and go to bed now.

  • Francis Giroux

    Member
    December 18, 2021 at 4:30 pm

    I have nothing that needs an update. My computer operating system (Windows 7) quit being supported over a year ago and has worked better than it ever did before, when they were messing with it all the time. My cars are 20+ years old and only have an AM/FM radio. I won’t carry a cell phone, and I use maps when I travel. I don’t need anybody looking over my shoulder. FREEDOM!!!

    • Curtis Cibinel

      Member
      December 19, 2021 at 1:39 pm

      Unfortunately both cars and computers which are connected to the internet should not be ignored. Running windows 7 is a security risk – DO NOT USE THAT SYSTEM FOR BANKING. If you want to deliberately disconnect your devices from the internet then fine but your at risk by having a system connected and unpatched. Most people find the benefits worth the risks but it does require knowledge and a bit of paranoia to keep safe in a modern world.

      For those that want modern connected functionality and don’t know how to refold maps its a simple matter of patching everything continuously. Most people don’t choose to ignore modern technology.

      • Jacob Bunce

        Member
        December 19, 2021 at 4:03 pm

        That is kind of the point. Connecting insecure computers to the internet is a security risk. But what is an insecure computer?

        Well, certainly a Windows 7 system would be considered insecure, and this kind of makes the case for continual software updates if your computer is internet connected.

        My posture is a little more paranoid. Consider any zero day exploit (which is not uncommon). By definition, zero day cannot be preempted by continual software updates. With this kind of exploit in mind, that basically means that I consider any internet connected computer to be insecure, whether or not its software is continually updated. I can tolerate this risk on my PC and smart phone, but not with a car that can kill me. That’s why I don’t want an internet connected car. I will happily give up any software features which might require internet.

        • Curtis Cibinel

          Member
          December 19, 2021 at 6:14 pm

          From a user perspective with “appliance” style devices generally your responsibility is simply to patch your device. I am a cloud system architect so I handle the security of systems containing lots of highly sensitive data. When zero day exploits drop it is a stressful impact analysis and mitigation process. In the vast majority of cases such as the recent log4j zero day the exploit is prevented by multiple layers of defense in the system architecture.

          <font face=”inherit”>Good system design in networking and sandboxing limits or in many cases prevents a vulnerability from having any practical method of exploitation. I do not work on automotive systems but I fully expect </font>diligence<font face=”inherit”> is given by the engineers to limit the risks. </font>

  • my_discord_number_is_0328 bloody stupid

    Member
    December 19, 2021 at 7:13 pm

    about open source downloadable, i didnt mention that it can be done with online downloadable pluging the update into car with USB, instruction video with that b/c noone know how to do that anymore for those raised in “everything in the cloud” times. so no online connection concerning privacy security issues.

  • Trevor Anderson

    Member
    September 16, 2022 at 6:21 am

    I have an unlimited plan with 50gb free 5G per month. I typically only burn through about 15gb/month.

    Most car companies only let you buy cellular service through the car maker or through their “brand partners”. I know that most companies need to prove “recurring income / subscriptions” in order to be “worth more” when they IPO but I hope we can use our own sims and service.

    I would love to tether my car to my cellular plan in lieu of paying another subscription (which I wont 😀).

  • Vernon Sinnott

    Member
    September 16, 2022 at 6:49 am

    That’s not the way it works in Alberta. Regardless of my cell phone provider, my phone links through Bluetooth to my automobile.

    • Trevor Anderson

      Member
      September 16, 2022 at 7:56 am

      My phone calls will go through my phone, I am only speaking of in-vehicle data connection.

      What I am discussing is the connected car features; in car internet, updated driving directions, charger locations and current availability, etc.

      I want the option to slot in my own sim card and use the data I am already paying for instead of paying Aptera for a connectivity package.

  • Joseph Wall

    Member
    September 16, 2022 at 7:14 am

    Yeah, being tied to a subscription service or specific cell plan just to use the car and get OTA updates is definitely not green or sustainable. But what is sustainable? Simple wifi or bluetooth internet sharing. I can always share off my phone’s data plan, no matter what cell tech is being used, and I don’t have to upgrade the car’s head unit. It’s absolutely unnecessary to have two separate ones. The car can easily connect to wifi at home for OTA updates and to my phone’s wifi for everything else.

    • Trevor Anderson

      Member
      September 16, 2022 at 8:06 am

      I figured that large updates would be over wifi like tesla’s; my Hyundai head unit was updated via an USB drive from my home computer and that was an absolute mess.

      Chris Anthony has talked several times about the “connected fleet” of Aptera vehicles, so I assume by default that there will be some LTE connectivity built in and I just want the option to use my own.

  • Riley …

    Member
    September 16, 2022 at 7:22 am

    I think aptera will just connect to wifi from home in order to update the car (same as tesla) that would be fine. I see no need to buy vehicle specific internet but I am one to talk i just paid $100 for a year of premium connectivity for my model 3.

    • Trevor Anderson

      Member
      September 16, 2022 at 8:20 am

      Yea I am a cheapskate, Aptera speaks to me at that level, and would love the option.

      give me an option:

      – remote control of vehicle functions, free for x years, then $5/month

      – LTE, $8 month

      – Premium package, remote control and LTE, 10$

      Lets frugal POS like myself save $5/month by using my own LTE SIM card and they still get their subscription.

      • Russell Fauver

        Member
        September 16, 2022 at 9:39 am

        I like the idea of bringing your own sim. Then when I need a little privacy I can just pull the card out of the slot. Way better option than tracking down and removing that tiny little embedded antenna in the vehicle. Less permanent too 🙂

    • Dennis Swaney

      Member
      September 16, 2022 at 7:05 pm

      Trevor & Russell,

      Don’t most phones come with eSIM features? Could that be used? The iPhone 14 doesn’t even support a physical SIM.

      • Russell Fauver

        Member
        September 16, 2022 at 9:46 pm

        Good question, I don’t know the answer. I use old cheap androids. One for work with a SIM card and one for traveling that came with a sim but I never installed it. I use the one without the sim when I travel and don’t want to be bothered with phone calls, I use it for taking pics and playing games and whatnot. It is time for a new phone though, my latest Samsung update killed the phone’s Bluetooth and after repeated contact with tech support they were unable to restore it. I really miss using my wireless headset at work. Most likely going to stick with android but get a de-googled one.

  • Michael Thwaite

    Member
    September 16, 2022 at 1:04 pm

    I’m happy to have a $99/year plan like a wearable. Being able to check charge state, location, remote preconditioning, live charger status, control locks/activation/deactivation, etc. whilst I’m out and about is useful to me.

    I feel conflicted on things like streaming audio and definitely video though. I’m rather of the opinion that all services are either all onboard and very comprehensive like Tesla with LTE/5G and a price tag to match or, there’s absolutely nothing at all and it needs CarPlay/AndroidAuto to do anything, even navigation. Why? Well, I don’t really want a half-way house with OKish nav, sort of passible streaming but not great, etc. Plus I’d rather that they do an amazing solid CarPlay integration and then move onto other things.

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