Internet connectivity and updates

[joshua-rosen]

Internet connectivity isn’t optional for any modern car. OTAs require an Internet connection by definition. Navigation requires connectivity and so does service. One thing they should do that Tesla doesn’t do anymore is allow OTAs over cellular. I’ve seen discussions on Tesla forums from people who can’t easily provide WiFi access to their cars, for those people being able to do updates via the cell network would be great.

[jacob-bunce]

All of that is false. But even assuming features like navigation, etc require internet connectivity, I don’t need or want those features, which leads to my second question… can it be removed or disabled?

I must assume the car can function without connectivity. For example, if driving through a dead zone. Therefore I would simply want to ensure it is always disconnected.

Let’s be clear… I am mainly concerned about forced, factory installed, cellular data service in the car. Wifi is something else entirely and doesn’t bother me as much because I can (presumably) just not select any networks.

[RajGiandeep]

I would hope you could download maps to be offline for the states you plan or routinely travel in. I don’t wan to pay for another data plan or use data for the car regularly. Perhaps a maker series in the future would cover this.

[curtis-cibinel]

I would hope that if we don’t have cellular for OTA and navigation that they can use a cellphone for this. As much as they are trying to be minimal I think Joshua is correct that it would be very odd not to have it. Modern cars are generally highly connected devices so if they avoid the use of direct cellular they will need to put substantial design effort into ensuring a good experience to download maps and check for OTA updates.

[Russell]

I hope connectivity is optional. With so many things tracking, monitoring, listening, I don’t want to add yet another to the list of things that I can’t have nearby when I want to have a private conversation. While we’re on the subject of options, I’d like the self driving hardware to be optional too.

[joshua-rosen]

Internet connectivity can’t be optional, you need OTAs and they need to be able to access the diagnostic information on the car. When the car first starts shipping the software isn’t even going to be half baked, it’s going to be raw batter, it will need to be updated frequently. If you have a problem with the car you aren’t going to be able to take it to a dealer because they won’t have any. Their support is going to look at the logs in the car to see what’s going on, they need to do that remotely and that means Internet access.

[jacob-bunce]

It’s a recursive and inane distinction. As if to say, software requires internet delivery if it requires internet delivery. That is not strictly necessary for software. You can do manual installs with other delivery methods. It all depends on the software architecture and deployment model.

I am a computer scientist, programmer, and cyber security engineer. You have just stated the precise reason why I don’t want internet connectivity:

“When the car first starts shipping the software isn’t even going to be half baked, it’s going to be raw batter, it will need to be updated frequently.”

What you are essentially describing here is a CI/CD software model. In the industry, this model is basically an excuse for bad quality software. I don’t want bad software connected to the internet for security reasons (especially when that software can control my vehicle).

Recognizing the dire state of the software industry, and the fact that these issues can’t be avoided, I choose not to use software features whenever possible. That means no self-driving, navigation, cloud music, etc.

The fundamental point here is that the car can function in the middle of the desert with no cell service. That is exactly the level of software functionality I want. Nothing more.

Worst case, maybe I can install a Faraday layer inside the shell.

[david-b-beal]

Im with you on this. I’d be “ok” if I could enable long enough when I’m not driving it, to do updates but I’d rather update via USB download via my computer where I have full control.

[Riley]

I am sure it will be easy to find and remove the data antenna. Hopefully it isn’t the same antenna that supplies radio. I understand the argument for privacy and freedom. There is also an argument for important updates for safety. Were all adults and understand the risks.

[Fran]

I guess the correct original question should have been, “Will the Aptera have internet disconectivity?” Guy SKEER said in another forum section last week:

“For a WOMAN, a CellPhone is Actually a Sceptre – It Makes Her QUEEN of ALLLLL She Surveys.

But, For a MAN, a Cellphone is but LEASH! I Don’t Need No Steeenkin’Leash!”

I agree with him and I don’t carry around a steeenkin leash (cell phone). And I cycle in my velomobile many miles away from home almost every day, and still don’t carry a cell phone. I drive a 22 year old car (Honda Insight) and a 19 year old car (Prius), nothing online. I reserved an Aptera but if its going to be a steeenkin leash, I may give up the idea, or figure a way to disconnect from the leash. Here’s what I’m willing to do.

I have wifi in my house just inside from where I have the best sun exposure. The car will sit there when I’m not driving it. If updates need to be done there are plenty of hours of connectivity. If I decide I don’t like automatic updates because the factory is messing with stuff I don’t want changed, I’ll move the wifi or park out in the field. I am not interested in carrying a cell phone just to lose my privacy. That’s why I don’t carry one now. Not because I am doing anything I am ashamed of, but because my Bible tells me about the coming end times when Christians and Patriots will be hunted down like criminals, and I want my privacy when that happens. In fact I may move the wifi anyway because someone might be able to tell when I am home when the car is parked, unless I am out in my pedal vehicle (picture in my profile, yellow contraption in front of me). I don’t want self driving, I know about uninterruptible autopilot on airliners that can be taken over from the ground, and if they can do it to an airplane, they can do it to an “online” car, which is why I would have never got a car with onstar. No phone, no “online,” no leash. If that means no Aptera or any other new car, then I pray my present cars last a long time.

So, I guess I can take off my tinfoil hat and go to bed now.

[trevor-anderson]

I have an unlimited plan with 50gb free 5G per month. I typically only burn through about 15gb/month.

Most car companies only let you buy cellular service through the car maker or through their “brand partners”. I know that most companies need to prove “recurring income / subscriptions” in order to be “worth more” when they IPO but I hope we can use our own sims and service.

I would love to tether my car to my cellular plan in lieu of paying another subscription (which I wont 😀).

[joseph-wall]

Yeah, being tied to a subscription service or specific cell plan just to use the car and get OTA updates is definitely not green or sustainable. But what is sustainable? Simple wifi or bluetooth internet sharing. I can always share off my phone’s data plan, no matter what cell tech is being used, and I don’t have to upgrade the car’s head unit. It’s absolutely unnecessary to have two separate ones. The car can easily connect to wifi at home for OTA updates and to my phone’s wifi for everything else.

[trevor-anderson]

I figured that large updates would be over wifi like tesla’s; my Hyundai head unit was updated via an USB drive from my home computer and that was an absolute mess.

Chris Anthony has talked several times about the “connected fleet” of Aptera vehicles, so I assume by default that there will be some LTE connectivity built in and I just want the option to use my own.

[Riley]

I think aptera will just connect to wifi from home in order to update the car (same as tesla) that would be fine. I see no need to buy vehicle specific internet but I am one to talk i just paid $100 for a year of premium connectivity for my model 3.

[trevor-anderson]

Yea I am a cheapskate, Aptera speaks to me at that level, and would love the option.

give me an option:

– remote control of vehicle functions, free for x years, then $5/month

– LTE, $8 month

– Premium package, remote control and LTE, 10$

Lets frugal POS like myself save $5/month by using my own LTE SIM card and they still get their subscription.

[michael-thwaite]

I’m happy to have a $99/year plan like a wearable. Being able to check charge state, location, remote preconditioning, live charger status, control locks/activation/deactivation, etc. whilst I’m out and about is useful to me.

I feel conflicted on things like streaming audio and definitely video though. I’m rather of the opinion that all services are either all onboard and very comprehensive like Tesla with LTE/5G and a price tag to match or, there’s absolutely nothing at all and it needs CarPlay/AndroidAuto to do anything, even navigation. Why? Well, I don’t really want a half-way house with OKish nav, sort of passible streaming but not great, etc. Plus I’d rather that they do an amazing solid CarPlay integration and then move onto other things.

[HeliumHead]

I haven’t heard anything about the manner in which software updates will be managed for the vehicle. Via cellular network? Would that include maps and recommended routes to destination?

[Riley]

Definitely over the air updates but I don’t recall if that would require wifi connection or can be done via cellular data. I imagine they will copy tesla which requires wifi to update.

[bruce-mengler]

One approach I have personally used was to download the new software configuration file to a thumb drive, sneaker net the thumb drive to the vehicle, plug the thumb drive into the vehicle, & proceed with the software update from there. I thought was a very workable solution.

[jason-hendricks]

I’ve seen that this has been discussed in a few places but I haven’t found an actual answer and those discussions were over a year old, so maybe there’s new info.

My question is will you be able to drive the Aptera without being connected to the internet at all? I was bragging to a coworker that the Aptera would be my end of the world car, no infrastructure needed (except roads). But then I got to thinking about whether the Aptera would still function in that end of the modern world scenario, would a prolonged internet outage effectively brick the car?

I get being connected, and the point, with updates, data, navigation, entertainment etc. But what if there is no internet available? Or what if you’re going to commit a crime and don’t want anything tracking your location? Hopefully there are end of the world and privacy demand issues involved in the engineering, but with how the modern world is it’s more and more a reality that not being constantly online or tracked is not an option. I’d prefer if my car gave me the option and ability to exist offline. And I definitely don’t want them handing my location data to the cops should I decide to fulfill my lifelong dream of delivering boxes of glittered live hornets to politicians.

We are independent people, we weirdos that will buy a three wheel drive sperm cell. We need to be allowed our independence and privacy to only connect with permission if wanted. Thinking about it is honestly making me consider doing an electric conversion on my old FIAT X1/9 instead. I really don’t like the idea of not being able to drive freely without being monitored (I know my phone does it, but I can leave the phone at home if I want), this big brother stuff doesn’t need to extend to every aspect of our lives.

• This reply was modified 6 months, 1 week ago by  Jason Hendricks.
• This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.

[eddie-matejowsky]

I live in Australia and regularly drive through mobile dead zones. If being online 24/7 was a requirement road trips would be impossible many countries. I’m hoping a the Aptera does not need a mobile account. It could used WiFi at home and phone data when away.

Steve at the “Aptera owners club” YouTube channel did a scary piece on car data privacy today.

[ctuan13]

I 100% agree with you on this. I have a Lightning and delved into the same topic of disabling network connectivity and telematics on the Lightning forum. Let me tell you, the “wElL iF yOu hAvE nOtHiNg tO hIdE, wHy dO yOu cArE?” argument is so tiresome.

I care for several reasons but these are my main two.

1. Privacy and control
This is my vehicle, I paid money for it, I purchased it outright, therefore if I wish for it to no longer be connected to the internet or only want it to connect at certain times and be completely offline at all others, that is my right and should be within my control.
I understand and accept that this may interfere with certain features that require internet connectivity like live traffic monitoring/media/satellite radio, etc, but I don’t care and don’t need those features. If I’d like to live without them and use my vehicle as just a vehicle, I should be able to do that.

2. Data Security and Safety
The other argument I always hear is “bUt yOuR pHoNe!” Yeah and my phone is built by a company that specializes in electronics and internet technology and runs software created and maintained by companies with two decades of experience in IT. Does that mean that it’s not collecting data? Of course not, modern smartphones are essentially spy devices that we carry with us. But again you can put your phone in a faraday bag or you can leave it at home.

While I certainly have more faith in Aptera than I do Ford as far as data and cybersecurity are concerned, I still am highly uncomfortable with a car company collecting and story potentially highly specific and sensitive location, voice, typing, media and driving meta data for any period of time.

And here’s the thing, if your phone or its data get compromised, what happens? Your phone crashes, your files might get corrupted? Maybe your files are stolen by a ransomware attack or maybe you even have your identity stolen and your bank account compromised. If my EV gets compromised? A virus could cause my vehicle’s battery to enter thermal runaway, it could interfere or even sever my ability to manipulate the vehicle control inputs while at speed and it could even cause my vehicle to perform uncommanded movements leading to a crash that could kill me, my passengers, other drivers or pedestrians. The cost for a cybersecurity breach in a vehicle is far, far higher.

So yes, hopefully it’s as simple as it is on my Lightning and there will be a simple module we can unplug when we want the Aptera to go “offline” and hopefully Aptera is even more transparent about its API when it comes to data connectivity and controls so we have choices in how our data is collected, what is collected and what isn’t.

[david-b-beal]

Exactly

[Mike-Mars]

In the EU, a company needs a legit reason if they collect and store personal data. So IMO if the lightning was to be sold in that region they would hit legal issues. Obviously it isn’t on sale there (partly because it is unsuitable anyway).