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Battery Technology NewsPosted by curtis-cibinel on April 21, 2022 at 10:24 am
Here is an amazing bit of news on LFP battery research from Gotion High Tech. They have 210 wh/kg now, 230 wh/kg soon and potential for over 260 wh/kg by the end of the year. 210 is already likely enough to make the weight disadvantage at a pack level negligible (LFP Packs need way less packaging / cooling which is ~15-20% of the total pack). The future is definitely LFP.
stewart-ruth replied 1 month, 2 weeks ago 23 Members · 45 Replies
- This discussion was modified 4 months, 1 week ago by bbelcamino.
Battery Technology Newsstewart-ruth updated 1 month, 2 weeks ago 23 Members · 45 Replies
ApTylerMemberApril 21, 2022 at 2:51 pm
They certainly seem promising. what type of batteries will the Aptera have?
joshua-vance-vanceMemberApril 21, 2022 at 3:17 pm
Standard 2170’s IIRC
gary-greenwayMemberApril 21, 2022 at 3:26 pm
curtis-cibinelMemberApril 21, 2022 at 4:04 pm
Sorry if this dupes – the forum just did something weird and ate my edit.
Aptera will definitely ship with NMC 2170 which are still very solid. They are a good off the shelf option with a very proven history. Speculatively, I think their is a strong chance Aptera will eventually switch to LFP for the shorter range versions (potentially up to the 600 mile); just as Tesla did with their standard range lineup. This allows frequent full use of the battery (0-100%) without degradation, better safety, lower cost, and reduced environmental impact (no cobalt or nickel).
Chris has experience with LFP and said in an interview that even he as the CEO wants the 400 mile version (also the most popular choice). They will source components which are available and LFP wasn’t performance competitive 2 years ago when development started; it would have undercut much of their extreme efficiency. LFP has improved dramatically over that time and is continuing to while being produced in insane quantities for the chinese EV market.
Note: It is also definitely not trivial to redesign the battery pack for LFP; it may take years until a redesigned pack is ready and trying to develop it too early would add risk for the company. Aptera needs to ship units to raise funds via sales / IPO not spend what they have redoing perfectly acceptable engineering. As prices shift the urgency will go up as nickel and cobalt prices rise and it will eventually be necessary.
alain-chuzelMemberApril 22, 2022 at 6:59 am
Respectfully, I’ve seen some variation of the “This allows frequent full use of the battery (0-100%) without degradation,…” statement in numerous venues and I just haven’t seen any “data” to support it. Any chance you can point me to some?
I’m a big fan of LiFePO4 (LFP) and will likely use it for an off-grid system for my home/shop.
curtis-cibinelMemberApril 22, 2022 at 10:20 am
To be clear LFP does still degrade with usage just FAR slower.
nick-mMemberApril 21, 2022 at 9:36 pm
NMC is the current best-in-class for range, but if “good enough” LFP batteries are available, this will have a lot of benefits: no expensive cobalt from war-torn Congo, no nickel from Russia, much reduced chance of fire, longer battery lifetime. LFP is definitely coming. But maybe eventually sodium-ion batteries that do away with the lithium and its skyrocketing price. A lot of hard engineering work still to be done, but these things are on the horizon.
peter-jorgensenMemberApril 22, 2022 at 7:21 am
I’d be willing to drop down from the 600 pack to the 400 pack to get LFP instead of NMC…
RussellMemberApril 22, 2022 at 9:36 am
This looks promising, but still a long way from mass production.
joshua-rosenMemberApril 22, 2022 at 10:04 am
It will be interesting to see where battery tech lands in the next few years. Eventually one type will reach a tipping point and then all further development will be focused on that. It could be that it’s already happening with LFP but it’s to early to call the game.
I started designing computers in the early 70s so I lived through the chip technology battles. When I started there were three distinct types of chip technologies. There were two bipolar types, TTL and ECL and several types of MOS, NMOS, PMOS and CMOS. Supercomputers like the Cray 1 used ECL because it was the fastest, but it also was the lowest density and highest power. Minicomputers used TTL which was slower than ECL but higher density, lower power and cheaper than ECL. Microprocessors used MOS which was very slow but had the advantage of much higher density and much lower power and much lower costs than either of the bipolar technologies. Because of that cost, power and density advantage of MOS it was used in memories as well as microprocessors. Those applications had the volumes which justified higher investment. The higher investments yielded faster scaling which made MOS faster as well, higher density increased and lower costs. That was a virtuous circle that quickly caused the bipolar technologies to disappear. In the late 80s there was an attempt to use Gallium Arsenide instead of silicon as an alternative to CMOS but that went nowhere for logic and memory although it survives in optical applications. Today we just say silicon chip, everything uses a decedent of CMOS although there are lot’s of variations in each process.
I expect something similar to happen with batteries. The winner will emerge in the next few years but it will take another 10 to know which battery tech won the war.
Mr.DudeMemberApril 22, 2022 at 12:12 pm
Curtis, LFP batteries do sound promising, but I am curious as to their cold weather performance. Do you you know if their longevity or utility is significantly degraded (more than other battery chemistries) when operating and charging at extremely cold temperatures ( say around -30F)? Do you know if decent BMS can mitigate any potential issues?
joshua-rosenMemberApril 22, 2022 at 12:19 pm
LFPs are very sensitive to cold. When Tesla introduced LFPs in Europe there were a lot of reports in the Tesla forums of horrendously slow charging, Superchargers were running at L2 speeds. Tesla fixed the BMS software and this last winter Bjorn reported that the LFP Model 3s were charging faster than the NMA Model 3s.
curtis-cibinelMemberApril 22, 2022 at 12:28 pm
Tesla had software issues with their LFP initially but it looks like it is solid now.
jonah-jorgensonMemberApril 23, 2022 at 7:56 am
Always takes a while to work out the kinks in something new. Worthwhile when done though. Admire persistence to get something right.
joshua-rosenMemberApril 22, 2022 at 12:34 pm
One more thing about LFPs. It’s harder for the BMS software to figure out the charge level. The voltage on NMAs and NMCs drops fairly steeply as they discharge, LFPs have a much flatter voltage level.
alain-chuzelMemberApril 23, 2022 at 8:05 am
If I’m not mistaken, for LFP (LiFePO4) it’s best to count Coulombs in and out rather than rely on voltage.
alain-chuzelMemberApril 23, 2022 at 6:16 am
As another “data point”, the regulations for the next Bridgestone World Solar Challenge were just released and the LiFePO4 “allowable cell mass” for the competitors has been reduced from 40 KG to 36 KG while it has remained constant for the other chemistries.
jonah-jorgensonMemberApril 23, 2022 at 7:54 am
Those of us that have technical skills other than solar appreciate you sharing your expertise in this area especially because we are all interested in having more knowledge of one of the main features of the Aptera. Helps us to gain a greater appreciation of the engineering going into this great vehicle.
GDSMemberApril 29, 2022 at 7:49 am
Let me start by saying I love lifepo4 batteries. I have a 12KW 24V SOK system in my motor home.
But here’s why it’s not the best solution for a car. You can not charge a Lithium Iron phosphate battery below freezing. If you live in sunny California that’s great. I live in not so sunny Minnesota where the air hurts for 4 months out of the year and 7 months of the year you can dip below the magic 32F.
Putting a charge to a lifepo4 battery below 32F will destroy the battery almost immediately. Buying a lifep04 batter without a BMS that has cold temp cutoff… well that up to you and where you live.
You could put a circuit to self warm the battery but it’s capacity has already been reduced by the cold. The good thing is that you can pull power from them when they are below freezing.
I remove the cables from the battery pack after taking the charge down to 75%. I’m on year 3 of this pack…. Like I say I love the freedom it gives.
Check out sodium ion technology. It’s not mainstream yet but it checks all the boxes for me.
- This reply was modified 10 months, 3 weeks ago by Garry Sandeen.
peter-jorgensenMemberApril 29, 2022 at 8:05 am
Nice! How big is your 12kw 24v system? Or did you mean 12 kwh?
So what happens to NMC batteries when they’re charged under 32°F? With the cobalt it still charges ok? I’ve noticed my Kia Niro EV with an NCM pack can still pull in 18kw when the pack is under 32°F
- This reply was modified 10 months, 3 weeks ago by Peter Jorgensen.
garry-sandeenMemberApril 29, 2022 at 3:51 pm
Hi Peter, I have 4 205 amp hour SOK batteries, so 13.6v x 820 amp hours = 11,152 watts . When fully charged I see 12,040 watts on the display and that’s the metric usually watch as the batteries get depleted. I charge these with 3 24V MPPT 40 amp solar charge controllers. I also have 24v 37 amp and 50 amp AC chargers. This is enough power to run my 32″ TV, media server, 24v compressor refrigerator, and furnace for a week no problem without sun. I still have to add more solar panels as the goal is 24×7 AC with a mini split. These are awesome but lifepo4 batteries have water in them and if you push the angry pixies the wrong way when it’s frozen they are toast. Maybe there new tech that allows these cells to charge when frozen but I’m guessing the BMS has a circuit to put a load on the battery to warm it up.
As far as the cells used in the Aptera pack, if the information that I have is correct the INR21700-50E cell shows a charging range of 0 – 40C. It’s up to the BMS how it charges, when it charges, and when it doesn’t charge. I wish I could see the parameters they are using. It’s not uncommon for it to be -15F in my garage in Jan. Hell it was 25F Monday
alain-chuzelMemberApril 29, 2022 at 2:41 pm
Great comment but, if you don’t mind, I’d like to point out to readers that the key is to not charge LiFePO4 (a.k.a. LFP) when the BATTERIES themselves are below 32 deg F (0 C). Many might interpret that they shouldn’t be charged when AMBIENT is below 32 F and that, of course, is not the case.
I found the following video to be helpful.
curtis-cibinelMemberApril 29, 2022 at 2:52 pm
Batteries have active thermal management in modern vehicles (except the leaf). This allows temperature issues for charging to be handled (with some efficiency losses). Tesla LFP has shown this isnt really an issue (once they got the software dialed in) even for northern climates. Wider temperate tolerance for sodium batteries could be massively useful for stationary storage but isn’t really a big deal for EVs since the battery is not very far from the occupants and people generally like similar temperatures.
vernon-sinnottMemberAugust 18, 2022 at 11:33 am
john-malcomMemberAugust 18, 2022 at 12:59 pm
Yep. Another “Promising” battery technology on the horizon. Will believe it is commercially viable when an EV producer puts it in their vehicles.
vernon-sinnottMemberAugust 27, 2022 at 9:20 am
This is an American based company. Their battery technology is game changing for electric vehicles. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRIrfUmPnaI&t=245sttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRIrfUmPnaI&t=245s
GreekMemberAugust 27, 2022 at 10:22 am
New technologies are claimed almost daily. Towards the end of the video the presenter claims that he is considering investing in. Strange comment to make…Put your money where your mouth is, otherwise why be so high on something you haven’t invested in?
vernon-sinnottMemberAugust 27, 2022 at 11:22 am
That gentleman is an Australian who does the podcast “Electric Viking”. I doubt he would give it a good review if he didn’t think the company deserved it. He has does many assessments of the quickly evolving battery technology field. The difference here, they are going into production. I am Canadian, so the “Buy American” mantra doesn’t have the same ring to it with me, or him.
GreekMemberAugust 27, 2022 at 1:59 pm
I have seen him before and have enjoyed his programming. Maybe his approach should have been different? I understand being upfront and letting watchers know that his son is vested in the company. But then he gives an extremely positive review followed up by I may invest. This guy is in the know…why not pull the trigger?
john-malcomMemberAugust 28, 2022 at 6:35 am
Have to agree with John Voles. New “Game changing” EV battery tech announcements are a dime a dozen. It is best to take the “I am from Missouri” approach. The claims are always great and all they need is a little more money to finish development and start production. It is useful only when it can be produced in quantity cheaply and proven in a real vehicle installation in actual driving conditions.
vernon-sinnottMemberAugust 28, 2022 at 11:02 am
If you watched the video you would know they are in production. Battery technology is evolving. Nothing wrong with pointing out some of it. I doubt Aptera plans to use the same battery technology forever. They strike me as a forward thinking company founded on innovation, not head in sand think.
edward-mosimannMemberAugust 27, 2022 at 11:21 am
Full US made-sourced Kore Power’s iM3NY battery; LFP with 2.8% degradation after 2600 FAST CHARGE cycles! We will see incredible advances soon/now, …available, hopefully helped along by Biden’s IRA incentives.
Dr.DMemberSeptember 5, 2022 at 7:31 am
Good article about a fascinating battery innovation.
paul-carlucciMemberSeptember 5, 2022 at 2:48 pm
Interesting, but I have to wonder what the operating temperature is and what happens when it freezes.
I found another article on it that talks about it having a better use as charging station buffer storage since it’s hard to provide enough current to a site with lots of EVs charging at once at very high currents.
Oh well, I guess cooling it isn’t really an issue at least.
george-hughesMemberSeptember 6, 2022 at 5:44 pm
Since we’re unveiling the Gamma version of Aptera in a day or two at the Fully Charged show, here is a link to another innovative battery type that claims a weight/performance equivalence with LFP chemistry – i.e. not as energy dense as the batteries Aptera is using.
The battery is salt-based, is in production in the UK, and promises to be a fraction of the cost of lithium-based batteries. The video suggests a potential cost as low as $10 a kwh although I do recall a more realistic $70-80 per kwh cost (I need to watch it again). One of the presumed problems with the tech is that while they can be recycled like lithium batteries, the value of the chemical’s being used are so plentiful that it may not be economically feasible. Fortunately, these chemicals (primarily salt) are relatively benign and don’t pose an environmental danger.
Because of the abundance of materials local sourcing is really easy.
The problem is that with weight being the issue with Aptera, the mass of a 25kw (250 mile) Aptera equipped with this battery would probably only muster 20-22 kw’s of storage. Aptera could simply split the difference in mass between the 250 and 400 mile versions and use this ‘cheap’ type battery for its price leader if that would qualify Aptera for the $7500 federal credit if battery sourcing was the only impediment.
Oh, and according to Fully charged, these salt-batteries are currently in production.
Here’s the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBE0NADjSrE
vernon-sinnottMemberSeptember 16, 2022 at 12:24 pm
jonah-jorgensonMemberOctober 20, 2022 at 8:59 am
NASA (Not the Space Group) is developing a solid state battery that claims will have twice the capacity as current batteries and will weigh 40% less. Far less fire risk as well so safer. Additionally, the battery will not use Cobalt, Nickle, or Manganese. The intended use, enable electric airplanes. Space systems is interested for space vehicle batteries and rover batteries.
As with any battery development claims, the battery must perform in the real world not just in a lab environment and must be mass producible at a commodity price.
NASA guilty as charged for wasting money, but the other side of that coin is always funded, no need to scrape for investment dollars.
This is taking place in Ray’s back yard.
Here is the Electric Viking’s video. With him everything is a game changer!😜
- This reply was modified 5 months ago by Jonah Jorgenson. Reason: corrected spelling
- This reply was modified 4 months, 1 week ago by bbelcamino.
- This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by Gabriel Kemeny.
ray-holanModeratorOctober 20, 2022 at 10:47 am
Thanks for bringing this to our attention, Jonah. I have an “inside man” who works for a NASA contractor at Glenn Research Center (formerly NASA Lewis Research Center) here in Cleveland. I’ll reach out to him and see if he has access to any additional info. about this.
RussellMemberOctober 21, 2022 at 5:35 am
About 5 years ago a company came out with an electric motor that weighed 50 pounds and developed 300 hp continous. I looked at my airplane that had two 500lb engines each making 260 hp and thought about doing a conversion. My plane carried 1,000 pounds of fuel so replacing the two engines with those light weight motors would allow 1900 pounds for batteries and still have the same carrying capacity. Unfortunately the best batteries at that time would only allow a flight of 1 hour with the required 30 minute reserve. Battery breakthroughs like this are necessary to make electric flight possible. Hopefully one day…
GreekMemberOctober 21, 2022 at 6:42 am
While solid electrolytes were first discovered in the 19th century, several drawbacks have prevented widespread application. Developments in the late 20th and early 21st centuryhave caused renewed interest in solid-state battery technologies, especially in the context of electric vehicles, starting in the 2010s.While solid electrolytes were first discovered in the 19th century, several drawbacks have prevented widespread application. Developments in the late 20th and early 21st century have caused renewed interest in solid-state battery technologies, especially in the context of electric vehicles, starting in the 2010s. <div>Just a little Wikipedia’s history of SS batteries.<div>
</div><div>Ford will be introducing solid state batteries 2025 in vehicle application.</div><div>The importance here with NASA’s development…no use of cobalt, manganese and nickel. I have no animosity towards NASA…Although I don’t believe they have returned to the public what has been a virtually money dump of public funds. Let’s hope this battery development pans out.
- This reply was modified 5 months ago by John Voules.
- This reply was modified 5 months ago by John Voules. Reason: Ghosts in the machine
GreekMemberDecember 20, 2022 at 9:03 am
QuantumScape Ships First 24-Layer Prototype Battery Cells to Automotive OEMs
SAN JOSE, Calif.–(BUSINESS WIRE)– QuantumScape Corporation (NYSE:QS) today announced it has shipped its first 24-layer prototype lithium-metal battery cells to automotive OEMs for testing. Delivery of these cells, referred to as A0 samples, was the company’s key public milestone for the year, and achieving this goal represents an important step toward the commercialization of this technology.
With 24 layers, each comprising a solid-state separator, a cathode, and an in-situ-formed lithium-metal anode, these prototype cells have capacities in the multi-amp-hour range, a range the company believes is relevant for a variety of applications, including automotive and consumer electronics.
With these cells, the OEMs can start the testing process at their facilities and provide feedback on the performance of the cells. The company still has substantial work ahead to bring this technology to market, including improvements to the quality, consistency, and throughput of its production processes, and additional enhancements on the product side, such as increased cathode capacity loading and improved packaging efficiency. The company expects to deliver improvements on these fronts in subsequent generations of A, B, and C samples over the coming years.
“I’m proud of our team for all the effort and determination that went into achieving this milestone, especially in light of the challenges we encountered this year,” said Jagdeep Singh, CEO and co-founder of QuantumScape. “While this milestone brings us closer to our ultimate goal, there’s still a lot to do before this technology becomes a commercial product, and we now turn our attention to this important work.”
The A0 cells were built in QuantumScape’s new cell format, which was another important goal for the year. This new architecture is a hybrid between prismatic and pouch cells designed to support the uniaxial expansion and contraction of the lithium metal during charge and discharge. The company plans to host a virtual event in the new year to share more about this innovative new cell format. Details will be posted on QuantumScape’s website and social media accounts.
About QuantumScape Corporation
QuantumScape is on a mission to transform energy storage with solid-state lithium-metal battery technology. The company’s next-generation batteries are designed to enable greater energy density, faster charging, and enhanced safety to support the transition away from legacy energy sources toward a lower carbon future. For more information, visit http://www.quantumscape.com.
The information in this press release includes “forward-looking statements” within the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act and Section 21E of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934, as amended. All statements, other than statements of present or historical fact included in this press release, including, without limitation, regarding the development, performance, and commercialization of QuantumScape’s products and technology are forward-looking statements.
These forward-looking statements are based on management’s current expectations, assumptions, hopes, beliefs, intentions and strategies regarding future events and are based on currently available information as to the outcome and timing of future events. The company cautions you that these forward-looking statements are subject to significant risks and uncertainties and other factors that could cause QuantumScape’s development and commercialization timeline and QuantumScape’s actual results to differ materially from current expectations. Most of these factors are outside QuantumScape’s control and are difficult to predict. Factors that may cause such differences include, but are not limited to the following: (i) QuantumScape faces significant barriers in its attempts to scale and complete development of its solid-state battery cell and related manufacturing processes, and development may not be successful, (ii) QuantumScape may encounter substantial delays in the development, manufacture, regulatory approval, and launch of QuantumScape solid-state battery cells and building out of its manufacturing facilities, which could prevent QuantumScape from developing subsequent prototypes and commercializing products on a timely basis, if at all, (iii) QuantumScape may be unable to adequately control the costs of manufacturing its solid-state separator and battery cells and (iv) customer demand and/or required specifications may change. QuantumScape cautions that the foregoing list of factors is not exclusive. Additional information about factors that could materially affect QuantumScape is set forth under the “Risk Factors” section in the QuantumScape’s Quarterly Report on Form 10-Q filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission on October 28, 2022, and available on the SEC’s website at http://www.sec.gov.
Except as otherwise required by applicable law, QuantumScape disclaims any duty to update any forward-looking statements, all of which are expressly qualified by the statements in this section, to reflect events or circumstances after the date of this press release. Should underlying assumptions prove incorrect, actual results and projections could different materially from those expressed in any forward-looking statement.
stewart-ruthMemberFebruary 4, 2023 at 10:56 am
John, thank you for providing this information. I’m a novice on battery tech. Am interested in a street wise dictionary for expressions related to battery tech. If you are aware of such a resource, it would be greatly appreciated to point me/us in that direction.
Many thanks. Stewart
paul-brandMemberFebruary 4, 2023 at 9:39 am
This tech sounds promising. No thermal runaways like lithium ion. Good energy density. Light weight. Fast charging. No dendrite formation.
They are supposed to be ramping production now.
paul-brandMemberFebruary 4, 2023 at 10:17 am
Another look at this tech
- This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Gabriel Kemeny.
- This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Harry Parker. Reason: Separatd links with a space
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paul-brandMemberFebruary 4, 2023 at 10:24 am
I wonder if lithium sulfur batteries will solve some of the working thermal range issues.