Battery Technology News

[ApTyler]

They certainly seem promising. what type of batteries will the Aptera have?

[gary-greenway]

NMC 2170s

[nick-m]

NMC is the current best-in-class for range, but if “good enough” LFP batteries are available, this will have a lot of benefits: no expensive cobalt from war-torn Congo, no nickel from Russia, much reduced chance of fire, longer battery lifetime. LFP is definitely coming. But maybe eventually sodium-ion batteries that do away with the lithium and its skyrocketing price. A lot of hard engineering work still to be done, but these things are on the horizon.

[peter-jorgensen]

I’d be willing to drop down from the 600 pack to the 400 pack to get LFP instead of NMC…

[Russell]

This looks promising, but still a long way from mass production.

https://www.freethink.com/environment/lithium-sulfur-batteryhttps://www.freethink.com/environment/lithium-sulfur-battery

[joshua-rosen]

It will be interesting to see where battery tech lands in the next few years. Eventually one type will reach a tipping point and then all further development will be focused on that. It could be that it’s already happening with LFP but it’s to early to call the game.

I started designing computers in the early 70s so I lived through the chip technology battles. When I started there were three distinct types of chip technologies. There were two bipolar types, TTL and ECL and several types of MOS, NMOS, PMOS and CMOS. Supercomputers like the Cray 1 used ECL because it was the fastest, but it also was the lowest density and highest power. Minicomputers used TTL which was slower than ECL but higher density, lower power and cheaper than ECL. Microprocessors used MOS which was very slow but had the advantage of much higher density and much lower power and much lower costs than either of the bipolar technologies. Because of that cost, power and density advantage of MOS it was used in memories as well as microprocessors. Those applications had the volumes which justified higher investment. The higher investments yielded faster scaling which made MOS faster as well, higher density increased and lower costs. That was a virtuous circle that quickly caused the bipolar technologies to disappear. In the late 80s there was an attempt to use Gallium Arsenide instead of silicon as an alternative to CMOS but that went nowhere for logic and memory although it survives in optical applications. Today we just say silicon chip, everything uses a decedent of CMOS although there are lot’s of variations in each process.

I expect something similar to happen with batteries. The winner will emerge in the next few years but it will take another 10 to know which battery tech won the war.

[Mr.Dude]

Curtis, LFP batteries do sound promising, but I am curious as to their cold weather performance. Do you you know if their longevity or utility is significantly degraded (more than other battery chemistries) when operating and charging at extremely cold temperatures ( say around -30F)? Do you know if decent BMS can mitigate any potential issues?

[joshua-rosen]

LFPs are very sensitive to cold. When Tesla introduced LFPs in Europe there were a lot of reports in the Tesla forums of horrendously slow charging, Superchargers were running at L2 speeds. Tesla fixed the BMS software and this last winter Bjorn reported that the LFP Model 3s were charging faster than the NMA Model 3s.

[vernon-sinnott]

GMG Graphene Aluminium-Ion Battery | Graphene Manufacturing Group | GMG (graphenemg.com)https://graphenemg.com/energy-storage-solutions/aluminum-ion-battery/

[john-malcom]

Yep. Another “Promising” battery technology on the horizon. Will believe it is commercially viable when an EV producer puts it in their vehicles.

[vernon-sinnott]

This is an American based company. Their battery technology is game changing for electric vehicles. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRIrfUmPnaI&t=245sttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRIrfUmPnaI&t=245s

[Greek]

New technologies are claimed almost daily. Towards the end of the video the presenter claims that he is considering investing in. Strange comment to make…Put your money where your mouth is, otherwise why be so high on something you haven’t invested in?

[vernon-sinnott]

That gentleman is an Australian who does the podcast “Electric Viking”. I doubt he would give it a good review if he didn’t think the company deserved it. He has does many assessments of the quickly evolving battery technology field. The difference here, they are going into production. I am Canadian, so the “Buy American” mantra doesn’t have the same ring to it with me, or him.

[Greek]

I have seen him before and have enjoyed his programming. Maybe his approach should have been different? I understand being upfront and letting watchers know that his son is vested in the company. But then he gives an extremely positive review followed up by I may invest. This guy is in the know…why not pull the trigger?

[george-hughes]

He (Electric Viking) does a good job of being enthusiastic by couching most everything in “If the performance is half what is described, it is a revolutionary game changer.” (but is it if the boost is only 30%?)

He’s an adept wordsmith and just the fact he handles literally dozens of press releases daily from all over the world he is admirable independent journalist creating value for youtube, patreon and his family.

[john-malcom]

Have to agree with John Voles. New “Game changing” EV battery tech announcements are a dime a dozen. It is best to take the “I am from Missouri” approach. The claims are always great and all they need is a little more money to finish development and start production. It is useful only when it can be produced in quantity cheaply and proven in a real vehicle installation in actual driving conditions.

[vernon-sinnott]

If you watched the video you would know they are in production. Battery technology is evolving. Nothing wrong with pointing out some of it. I doubt Aptera plans to use the same battery technology forever. They strike me as a forward thinking company founded on innovation, not head in sand think.

[edward-mosimann]

Full US made-sourced Kore Power’s iM3NY battery; LFP with 2.8% degradation after 2600 FAST CHARGE cycles! We will see incredible advances soon/now, …available, hopefully helped along by Biden’s IRA incentives.

[Dr.D]

Good article about a fascinating battery innovation.

https://physicstoday.scitation.org/do/10.1063/PT.6.1.20220829a/full/

[paul-carlucci]

Interesting, but I have to wonder what the operating temperature is and what happens when it freezes.

I found another article on it that talks about it having a better use as charging station buffer storage since it’s hard to provide enough current to a site with lots of EVs charging at once at very high currents.

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2022/08/20220825-sadoway.html

Oh well, I guess cooling it isn’t really an issue at least.

[george-hughes]

Since we’re unveiling the Gamma version of Aptera in a day or two at the Fully Charged show, here is a link to another innovative battery type that claims a weight/performance equivalence with LFP chemistry – i.e. not as energy dense as the batteries Aptera is using.

The battery is salt-based, is in production in the UK, and promises to be a fraction of the cost of lithium-based batteries. The video suggests a potential cost as low as $10 a kwh although I do recall a more realistic $70-80 per kwh cost (I need to watch it again). One of the presumed problems with the tech is that while they can be recycled like lithium batteries, the value of the chemical’s being used are so plentiful that it may not be economically feasible. Fortunately, these chemicals (primarily salt) are relatively benign and don’t pose an environmental danger.

Because of the abundance of materials local sourcing is really easy.

The problem is that with weight being the issue with Aptera, the mass of a 25kw (250 mile) Aptera equipped with this battery would probably only muster 20-22 kw’s of storage. Aptera could simply split the difference in mass between the 250 and 400 mile versions and use this ‘cheap’ type battery for its price leader if that would qualify Aptera for the $7500 federal credit if battery sourcing was the only impediment.

Oh, and according to Fully charged, these salt-batteries are currently in production.

Here’s the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBE0NADjSrE

[vernon-sinnott]

The BYD Blade Battery Evaluated: The Hype is Real (Mostly) – Bing videohttps://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=byd+blade+battery+technology&docid=608000772096406887&mid=02706451157E0BFEFD7802706451157E0BFEFD78&view=detail&FORM=VIRE

• This reply was modified 1 year, 7 months ago by  Vernon Sinnott.

[jonah-jorgenson]

NASA (Not the Space Group) is developing a solid state battery that claims will have twice the capacity as current batteries and will weigh 40% less. Far less fire risk as well so safer. Additionally, the battery will not use Cobalt, Nickle, or Manganese. The intended use, enable electric airplanes. Space systems is interested for space vehicle batteries and rover batteries.

As with any battery development claims, the battery must perform in the real world not just in a lab environment and must be mass producible at a commodity price.

NASA guilty as charged for wasting money, but the other side of that coin is always funded, no need to scrape for investment dollars.

This is taking place in Ray’s back yard.

Here is the Electric Viking’s video. With him everything is a game changer!😜

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G7Z07Dnk6Mhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G7Z07Dnk6M

• This reply was modified 1 year, 6 months ago by  Jonah Jorgenson. Reason: corrected spelling
• This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by  bbelcamino.
• This reply was modified 1 year, 4 months ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.

[ray-holan]

Thanks for bringing this to our attention, Jonah. I have an “inside man” who works for a NASA contractor at Glenn Research Center (formerly NASA Lewis Research Center) here in Cleveland. I’ll reach out to him and see if he has access to any additional info. about this.

[Russell]

About 5 years ago a company came out with an electric motor that weighed 50 pounds and developed 300 hp continous. I looked at my airplane that had two 500lb engines each making 260 hp and thought about doing a conversion. My plane carried 1,000 pounds of fuel so replacing the two engines with those light weight motors would allow 1900 pounds for batteries and still have the same carrying capacity. Unfortunately the best batteries at that time would only allow a flight of 1 hour with the required 30 minute reserve. Battery breakthroughs like this are necessary to make electric flight possible. Hopefully one day…

[Greek]

While solid electrolytes were first discovered in the 19th century, several drawbacks have prevented widespread application. Developments in the late 20th and early 21st centuryhave caused renewed interest in solid-state battery technologies, especially in the context of electric vehicles, starting in the 2010s.While solid electrolytes were first discovered in the 19th century, several drawbacks have prevented widespread application. Developments in the late 20th and early 21st century have caused renewed interest in solid-state battery technologies, especially in the context of electric vehicles, starting in the 2010s. <div>Just a little Wikipedia’s history of SS batteries.<div>
</div><div>
</div><div>Ford will be introducing solid state batteries 2025 in vehicle application.</div><div>The importance here with NASA’s development…no use of cobalt, manganese and nickel. I have no animosity towards NASA…Although I don’t believe they have returned to the public what has been a virtually money dump of public funds. Let’s hope this battery development pans out.

</div></div>

• This reply was modified 1 year, 6 months ago by  John Voules.
• This reply was modified 1 year, 6 months ago by  John Voules. Reason: Ghosts in the machine

[Greek]

QuantumScape Ships First 24-Layer Prototype Battery Cells to Automotive OEMs

12/20/2022

SAN JOSE, Calif.–(BUSINESS WIRE)– QuantumScape Corporation (NYSE:QS) today announced it has shipped its first 24-layer prototype lithium-metal battery cells to automotive OEMs for testing. Delivery of these cells, referred to as A0 samples, was the company’s key public milestone for the year, and achieving this goal represents an important step toward the commercialization of this technology.

With 24 layers, each comprising a solid-state separator, a cathode, and an in-situ-formed lithium-metal anode, these prototype cells have capacities in the multi-amp-hour range, a range the company believes is relevant for a variety of applications, including automotive and consumer electronics.

With these cells, the OEMs can start the testing process at their facilities and provide feedback on the performance of the cells. The company still has substantial work ahead to bring this technology to market, including improvements to the quality, consistency, and throughput of its production processes, and additional enhancements on the product side, such as increased cathode capacity loading and improved packaging efficiency. The company expects to deliver improvements on these fronts in subsequent generations of A, B, and C samples over the coming years.

“I’m proud of our team for all the effort and determination that went into achieving this milestone, especially in light of the challenges we encountered this year,” said Jagdeep Singh, CEO and co-founder of QuantumScape. “While this milestone brings us closer to our ultimate goal, there’s still a lot to do before this technology becomes a commercial product, and we now turn our attention to this important work.”

The A0 cells were built in QuantumScape’s new cell format, which was another important goal for the year. This new architecture is a hybrid between prismatic and pouch cells designed to support the uniaxial expansion and contraction of the lithium metal during charge and discharge. The company plans to host a virtual event in the new year to share more about this innovative new cell format. Details will be posted on QuantumScape’s website and social media accounts.

About QuantumScape Corporation

QuantumScape is on a mission to transform energy storage with solid-state lithium-metal battery technology. The company’s next-generation batteries are designed to enable greater energy density, faster charging, and enhanced safety to support the transition away from legacy energy sources toward a lower carbon future. For more information, visit http://www.quantumscape.com.

Forward-Looking Statements

The information in this press release includes “forward-looking statements” within the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act and Section 21E of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934, as amended. All statements, other than statements of present or historical fact included in this press release, including, without limitation, regarding the development, performance, and commercialization of QuantumScape’s products and technology are forward-looking statements.

These forward-looking statements are based on management’s current expectations, assumptions, hopes, beliefs, intentions and strategies regarding future events and are based on currently available information as to the outcome and timing of future events. The company cautions you that these forward-looking statements are subject to significant risks and uncertainties and other factors that could cause QuantumScape’s development and commercialization timeline and QuantumScape’s actual results to differ materially from current expectations. Most of these factors are outside QuantumScape’s control and are difficult to predict. Factors that may cause such differences include, but are not limited to the following: (i) QuantumScape faces significant barriers in its attempts to scale and complete development of its solid-state battery cell and related manufacturing processes, and development may not be successful, (ii) QuantumScape may encounter substantial delays in the development, manufacture, regulatory approval, and launch of QuantumScape solid-state battery cells and building out of its manufacturing facilities, which could prevent QuantumScape from developing subsequent prototypes and commercializing products on a timely basis, if at all, (iii) QuantumScape may be unable to adequately control the costs of manufacturing its solid-state separator and battery cells and (iv) customer demand and/or required specifications may change. QuantumScape cautions that the foregoing list of factors is not exclusive. Additional information about factors that could materially affect QuantumScape is set forth under the “Risk Factors” section in the QuantumScape’s Quarterly Report on Form 10-Q filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission on October 28, 2022, and available on the SEC’s website at http://www.sec.gov.

Except as otherwise required by applicable law, QuantumScape disclaims any duty to update any forward-looking statements, all of which are expressly qualified by the statements in this section, to reflect events or circumstances after the date of this press release. Should underlying assumptions prove incorrect, actual results and projections could different materially from those expressed in any forward-looking statement.

[stewart-ruth]

John, thank you for providing this information. I’m a novice on battery tech. Am interested in a street wise dictionary for expressions related to battery tech. If you are aware of such a resource, it would be greatly appreciated to point me/us in that direction.

Many thanks. Stewart

[paul-brand]

This tech sounds promising. No thermal runaways like lithium ion. Good energy density. Light weight. Fast charging. No dendrite formation.

https://lyten.com/products/batteries/https://lyten.com/products/batteries/

They are supposed to be ramping production now.

[paul-brand]

Another look at this tech

https://youtu.be/Cr_l7hG_Hx0

https://youtu.be/ONsS3E4D8Oc

• This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.
• This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by  Harry Parker. Reason: Separatd links with a space
• This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by  Harry Parker.

[paul-brand]

I wonder if lithium sulfur batteries will solve some of the working thermal range issues.

Electrifying

[patrick-keenan]

safe, sustainable zinc batteries<div>
</div><div>This sounds way better than combustible lithium ion batteries.
<div>
</div><div>https://science.oregonstate.edu/impact/2023/04/college-of-science-researchers-help-develop-electrolyte-enabling-high-efficiency-of
</div><div>
</div></div>

[john-malcom]

It seems like every day there is a new “Game changing” battery technology announced that is just around the corner and will revolutionize the EV industry. Most will fall by the way side as they attempt to transition from success in the lab to commercial viability. This is a hard transition to make. As we know from the Aptera experience, it takes capital to have commercially successful R&D. Then, what is viable in the lab is not viable at scale or is to difficult or to expensive to manufacture and be competitive. Then, when the technology is actually applied practically in a real world environment, it does not work as expected/advertised. Many/most “Revolutionary” battery technologies will fall by the way side. A few will survive and take us to the next level in the EV world. That won’t happen any time soon and will not be available in the first iteration(s) of the Aptera.

An example from another discipline. In a previous life I worked in IBM’s Thomas J. Watson Lab in NY. At that time computer memory was called “Core memory” It was essentially wires in a crisscross pattern with a donut at the intersection. We were very excited about developing something called bubble memory, the next revolutionary development in computer memory storage. (Faster, higher density etc.) I am sure you have not heard of bubble memory. It was overtaken by solid state memory. Most new battery tech will go the way of bubble memory. But, something extraordinary will survive!

• This reply was modified 8 months, 3 weeks ago by  John Malcom. Reason: added additional response

[david-marlow]

In the recent interview between Sandy and Chris, Chris mentioned that they were starting to revise their battery pack plans. Possibly to quilify for the tax credit? Hopefully this will not delay production even one day. As always seeking to make something better before production starts, will mean it may never get produced.

I think production should start ASAP. Any delays, other than to fix any serious safety problems found during testing, will result in much increased frustration by all.

[wingsounds13]

In this case, the revision is probably just the supplier and exact spec of the cells used. There are many sources for 2170 cells. I would think that the overall design of the modules and pack is largely unchanged, if at all. In all likelihood there will be pre-production packs built for testing that are all but indistinguishable from the eventual “production” packs.

[john-malcom]

The limiting factor that keeps Aptera from qualifying for the incentive is not the batteries as much as three wheels vs. Four wheels

[john-malcom]

Porsche joining the crowd claiming solid state batteries right around the corner. Like all other such claims, a dose of skepticism warranted for the schedule.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/porsche-solid-state-battery-let-103000229.html

Another Taycan record that a production Aptera could easily beat

<time datetime=”21/07/2023″>21/07/2023</time>

A road trip to remember as three journalists make the fastest all-electric journey from Thailand to Singapore – in 29 hours and 15 minute. A real accomplishment in that part of the world and done with journalists not professional EV drivers. But, done with a high end, modified Taycan.

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2023/products/porsche-taycan-4s-cross-turismo-record-runs-thailand-singapore-33188.html

• This reply was modified 7 months, 3 weeks ago by  John Malcom. Reason: restructured the post
• This reply was modified 7 months, 1 week ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.

[Shawgrin]

Jul 4, 2023

Porsche

How soon will solid-state batteries be in cars?

The company expects to be able to manufacture solid-state batteries for use in electric vehicles as soon as 2027, according to the Financial Times, which first reported on Toyota’s claimed breakthrough.

Note: this is most likely the soonest, realistically 5 to 6 years for most manufactures to even think about converting to solid state.

• This reply was modified 7 months, 3 weeks ago by  Vernon Michael Gardner.
• This reply was modified 7 months, 1 week ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.

[john-malcom]

Agreed. All battery claims need to be taken with a grain of salt.

[Shawgrin]

It is exciting to see the newest and wildest technologies coming out. It does take so long for them to make decisions on these technologies. It’s great to see the many pluses the future has in store for us. The hardest thing is to wait 😂.

[BBP]

I know solid state and semi-solid state batteries are supposed to charge faster than liquid filled batteries, but will the recharge speed taper off similarly to liquid filled batteries as they are greater than 50%-60% charged?

My DC fast charge rate drops quickly after the battery gets about 1/2 full of charge, never looked into whether that is required for safety or technical barrier.

[Mike-Mars]

>My DC fast charge rate drops quickly after the battery gets about 1/2 full of charge, never looked into whether that is required for safety or technical barrier.

To protect the battery from being destroyed via degradation. Slower charging = longer battery life. It’s why battery packs which are mainly fast charged tend to fail sooner than ones charged overnight.

• This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by  Michael Marsden.

[john-trotter]

I’m not sure there is any reliable data that shows significant degradation from fast charging, at least with modern BMS that throttle charging (& discharging) when needed. In any event, Aptera’s relatively small battery makes this even less of a problem because Level 1 and/or Level 2 will add miles-per-charging-minute pretty quickly.