Low Voltage Test Bench

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Low Voltage Test Bench

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Low Voltage Test Bench

  • Low Voltage Test Bench

  • Llewellyn Evans Evans

    Member
    June 16, 2022 at 4:44 pm

    Thoughts on testing, comms, architecture, failure modes

    https://youtu.be/xx5DvHhNuuM

  • Llewellyn Evans Evans

    Member
    June 16, 2022 at 4:46 pm

    What happens if the power goes off and you are in the car?

    Can the door latches be manually actuated?

    Do they fail in their current state, fail open or fail closed?

  • Curtis Cibinel

    Member
    June 16, 2022 at 5:13 pm

    I agree access in the event the latch is failed or power loss is important. I suspect that some manual release will exist in the door.

    At 0:44 you can see two video feeds on the center “mirror”. It looks like one might be a wide angle camera. This is a good option (but a virtual 360 top down would be better for parking). Perhaps they wire the cameras with a standard signal and a off the shelf amazon virtual 360 could reuse this display input.

    My big concern with bluetooth keys is security. The following video demonstrates a recent attack on Teslas by relaying the bluetooth signal so the phone and car think they are nearby when they could be 100s of miles away. Aptera could potentially avoid these types of attacks by using the mic on the phone to measure the exact time and interval (of the two taps and only allow access if the car/phone are within a very tight tolerance for these values. The times could need higher tolerances due to variable speed of sound travel to the phone but the interval could be very strict. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=bluetooth+relay+attack+tesla

    • Llewellyn Evans Evans

      Member
      June 16, 2022 at 5:34 pm

      I think dual authentication would help here.

      It means it needs BOTH you and the bluetooth….. set up your own private knock sequence.

      1. Bluetooth

      2. SECRET knock sequence. you know …. knock 321 or knock…. knockknockknock..knock….knockknock

      • Curtis Cibinel

        Member
        June 16, 2022 at 5:50 pm

        You don’t need a secret knock. If you can measure the exact interval between two simple taps to microsecond (millionth of a second) precision and ensure the car and phone recorded the same interval you eliminate the possibility of all relay attacks.

        I suppose if someone engineered a device to perform the two precisely timed taps and also planted a small speaker on the victim to mimic the two exactly and did everything else involved in the Bluetooth relay they could pull it off but this adds a ludicrous amount of difficulty.

      • Llewellyn Evans Evans

        Member
        June 16, 2022 at 5:54 pm

        If I can spoof your bluetooth on my phone and knock on the car then i am in?

        • Curtis Cibinel

          Member
          June 16, 2022 at 6:24 pm

          The relay attack is smarter than that. Essentially it isn’t pretending to be either device or break encryption it is just forwarding radio signals and repeating them so the two interact as if they were close together. Think of it like a VPN.

          Without extra user steps, extremely tight timing tolerances or measures like the tap interval timing method I described the attacker can relay the signals, step into the vehicle and drive off while the owner is completely unaware (as done on the Tesla). I suspect the two taps by the Aptera entry method are not currently being used as a security measure but they could be and it would solve this issue.

  • Llewellyn Evans Evans

    Member
    June 16, 2022 at 10:32 pm

    Looks like they are using ATMEL chips for the distributed controllers

    • Curtis Cibinel

      Member
      June 16, 2022 at 11:23 pm

      Hopefully the firmware can be flashed via those 3 wires via OTA. It would be unfortunate if the design limited the ability to fix things without traditional recalls.

  • Llewellyn Evans Evans

    Member
    June 17, 2022 at 11:42 pm

    Does the double knock work in a hail storm?

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