Max width Aptera in Europe

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Max width Aptera in Europe

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Max width Aptera in Europe

  • Max width Aptera in Europe

     Dennis Swaney updated 3 weeks, 4 days ago 14 Members · 44 Posts
  • Elzo Stubbe

    Member
    January 16, 2022 at 3:13 pm

    Do not know max width in different European countries, but in the Netherlands it’s 209cm. Since the Aptera is 223 cm(88 inch), it is 14 cm over the limit. Is this reduction in width of 7 cm on both sides a big deal?

  • Robert Klasson

    Member
    January 17, 2022 at 4:07 am

    I did a bit of digging into the rules here in Sweden last year. As far as I could tell, it should be possible to import the Aptera here for personal use. Our old national rules for three wheel motorcyles had no additional limits on width compared to cars, where the max width is 250 cm. Unfortunately, our national rules were replaced by EU rules last year, so now the max width for three wheel motorcycles is 200 cm. This applies to new vehicles sold though. It looks like privately imported vehicles still follow the old rules, probably to allow for those living abroad to bring their vehicles with them if they move back home.

    I don’t work with automotive regulations for a living though, so I could be wrong.

  • Jan Maarten Fernig

    Member
    January 17, 2022 at 8:19 am

    Where did you get the maximum of 209cm? I get 255 cm, from this page published by the Dutch governmental institute RDW: https://apk-handboek.rdw.nl/personenautos/afmetingen-en-massas/afmetingen

    It says translated to English:

    1. Passenger cars may:

    a. not be longer than 12.00 m;
    b. not be wider than 2.55 m, and
    c. not be higher than 4.00 m.

    • Olivier Laroque

      Member
      January 17, 2022 at 9:11 am

      Aptera is not a “car”, it’s a three-wheeler. So, you may look for the maximum size for this category 😉

      • Leon Wubbe

        Member
        June 8, 2022 at 3:57 am

        So, the fact it has only three wheels automatically makes it a motorbike? Three-wheeled cars don’t exist? The three-wheeled oldtimer from Morgan was a motorbike?
        If that is the case, then the next question will be what the minimum distance between the two wheels must be. Isn’t it?

        • Dennis Swaney

          Member
          June 8, 2022 at 8:03 am

          Some how I can’t see a Reliant Robin as a “motorbike”!

    • Elzo Stubbe

      Member
      January 17, 2022 at 10:15 am

      sorry my mistake it is max 2.00 meter(typed the nine instead of the zero).

      Here the measurements for a “driewielig motorvoertuig”(three wheel motor vehicle): https://apk-handboek.rdw.nl/driewielige-motorrijtuigen/afmetingen-en-massas/afmetingen

      So we have a problem I think….

      • This reply was modified 5 months, 2 weeks ago by  Elzo Stubbe. Reason: extra translation from dutch to English
      • Elzo Stubbe

        Member
        January 17, 2022 at 10:17 am

        Still remains my question: Will aptera motors adjust the width of the Aptera due to fact that it is 23 cm above our legal maximum…

        • Elzo Stubbe

          Member
          January 17, 2022 at 10:31 am

          And if other European countries have these same kind of restrictions on maximum three wheel vehicle width, what will Aptera do. Try to change European law or adjust the width.

      • Jan Maarten Fernig

        Member
        January 17, 2022 at 11:26 am

        Ah yes, you are right indeed.

        So now I have asked the German KBA (Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt) what would be the status of the Aptera regarding admission. Germany being the largest national economy within the EU.

        • Elzo Stubbe

          Member
          January 18, 2022 at 11:44 am

          Let us know if an answer arrives. Can imagine that this answer will also apply to the Netherlands..

          • Jan Maarten Fernig

            Member
            January 19, 2022 at 12:22 am

            Yes, I will. Currently I live in the Netherlands as a Dutch citizen. But we are moving slowly over to Italy. I presume German regulation represent a great deal of what one can expect within the EU.

          • Jan Maarten Fernig

            Member
            January 24, 2022 at 9:11 am

            Received reaction from KBA today. They cannot open the link to the aptera.us site because of safety measures. Now I have send them the Specs-2022.pdf and our concern on the width of 223 cm and the 3-wheel argument.

            • Elzo Stubbe

              Member
              January 25, 2022 at 2:26 pm

              We will wait and see…

    • Leon Wubbe

      Member
      June 8, 2022 at 4:09 am

      It’s indeed 200 cm. There is a special category for three-wheeled vehicles (in the Netherlands).
      https://apk-handboek.rdw.nl/driewielige-motorrijtuigen/afmetingen-en-massas/afmetingen

      1. Max length: 4,00 m (Aptera is 4,36 m)
      2. Max width: 2,00 m (Aptera is 2,23 m)
      3. Max height: 2,50 m (Aptera is 1,44)

      May be, adding a fourth wheel really close to the other rear wheel does the trick?

      • Konijnerd the Great

        Member
        June 8, 2022 at 7:05 am

        Thank you Leon, this is useful although sad information.
        I thought the only issue was the maximum width, but shaving off 36cm from the length is also a problem…

        I would indeed like Aptera to try to make two small wheels next to each other. It is less efficient, but i doubt it will be much. The negative is that these wheels will then be only manufactored for the fossil laws of europe.

        • Leon Wubbe

          Member
          June 8, 2022 at 7:08 am

          Maybe, if the third wheel is changed into two smaller wheels, the Aptera will be a real car. I don’t know the rules for that (yet). I will try to find out.

  • Bojan Majdandzic

    Member
    January 18, 2022 at 7:40 am

    For the first 1500 Apterae a year, I do not expect problems. I read that Lightyear one has no issues with the EU regulations for the first 1500 cars, Chris Anthony mentioned something like this too. The EU regulations seem to apply for large bulk mass-produced cars/vehicles.

    My bigger concern is related to the transportation costs to Europe. From a car importer, specialized in importing cars from the US toe Europe, I heard that those costs increased dramatically. $2000 per car before the COVID pandemic to $7000 per car nowadays.

    I have a faint memory, when ordering my Aptera, that the transportation costs were included.

    For the time being, I will stick to that memory.

    • Jan Maarten Fernig

      Member
      January 18, 2022 at 10:05 am

      Transportation costs before Covid have a good change to return. Covid is becoming endemic, like the flue, with IFR alike.

      Transportation costs are also jacked up as a lagging behind consequence of the disturbed worldwide container distribution caused by the Ever Given blocking the Suez canal.

      Last but not least, actual energy costs are an important factor as well.

      All these factors are diminishing or will in time, just will take just some of that: time. And time is still there, the first ‘serial’ Aptera has not to been produced yet. As an investor in Sono Motors I learned to calculate some ‘slack’ in between expectation and reality: moving reality to the future that is.

    • Curtis Cibinel

      Member
      January 24, 2022 at 3:03 pm

      Not that it helps any of the early adopters but hopefully the small factory design will allow them the scale to regional production far more easily than traditionally built vehicles. The current plan as I understand is for the first production facility to scale to 10,000 units per year. If each production facility can operate efficiently at that scale the 3rd or 4th plant may be in europe making most of the transport costs irrelevant long term.

      Shaving 23cm off the vehicle would require some major design changes which the north american buyers definitely don’t want. I suspect they could bring the wheel pods closer (worse airodynamics), eliminate the center console (smaller / different battery options only) and narrow the body. This would essentially be a different vehicle model but could share ~85+% of parts.

      • Jan Maarten Fernig

        Member
        January 25, 2022 at 12:29 am

        I just hope they can get to some agreement with regulators over here. If the EU is serious about it’s Green Deal, it should realize you have to transition the whole system, regulations included. Preferably in time for Aptera as well. It is one of the many ways the EU can stimulate and support the green initiatives we need.

        • Joshua Rosen

          Member
          January 25, 2022 at 6:39 am

          Aside from regulations how do you think the Aptera will compete in the EU market? You already have at least an order of magnitude more EVs to choose from then we do in the US and that’s before the Chinese companies that look like they will start showing up in Europe this year. In the US we basically have Tesla, outside of California you don’t see many of the few other choices that we have (I’ve never seen an ID.4, a Polestar, an iPace, I’ve seen one Taycan, one Mach-E and a few Bolts and the occasional Leaf, Tesla’s on the other hand are everywhere). The major EVs that are coming are giant trucks, Rivian, F150, Silverado, things that don’t compete with Aptera. In the US Aptera will have it’s niche to itself but in the EU will it be seen as part of as something distinctive or as just another EV?

          • Jan Maarten Fernig

            Member
            January 25, 2022 at 7:16 am

            To me, Aptera is in a category of its own. Completely. There is only the Lightyear One (NL) that comes close to my knowledge: https://lightyear.one/

            But not that close. Aptera has gone a far longer length of redesigning mobility. And it shows at first glance: it’s aerodynamic shape is unique. Lightyear One has worked on aerodynamic (and weight) as well, but they stay very close to the conventional shapes, and on 4 wheels as well.

            That being said. Aptera’s unconventional shape will also deter people away. Most people stick to the familiar, allowing for only small mutations a time. Nissan designed it’s LEAF from this line of thought. So Aptera is for the few, probably even below the 10% of all, willing to step out.

            And Aptera probably can already make a forecast, as they can have a thorough look at the reservations. Where do they originate from geographically and in what numbers. They should correct a little for proximity to the U.S./California. Maybe they can even make a survey among the reservations, to learn more about this.

        • Elzo Stubbe

          Member
          February 3, 2022 at 2:24 pm

          👍

      • Elzo Stubbe

        Member
        January 25, 2022 at 2:33 pm

        What interests me is WHY this restriction is implemented in the first place, while other four wheeled vehicles can be as wide as 2.55 meters….?? I am not an engineer and I have no arguments for it, but my gut feeling says that 2.00 width is less stable than 2.23 width..

        • Jan Maarten Fernig

          Member
          January 27, 2022 at 4:35 am

          The 2.0 meters originate from motorcycles with a sidecar, is my best guess. Those were the widest possible vehicles on 3 wheels internal combustion motorized above 50 cc in the days.

          The times are-a-changing. Have already changed. A design like Aptera was not even possible in the days of the current regulations.

          And you are right, more width is more stable given the geometry of the Aptera wheels (2 at the front in parallel, 3rd at the tail in the middle). For the conventional motorcycle with sidecar any more width would add more instability because of a complete other geometry of the 3 wheels there (two in the same left trail, 3rd rightmost parallel the back wheel on the left, or just a little before that).

  • Titus Meusel

    Member
    January 25, 2022 at 6:47 am

    This really is a vital question for me as well. I found ”regulation 168“ some time ago about vehicle EU categorizations. This seems to confirm the width of max. 2 and length of max. 4 meters for all ”L-class“-vehicles. Being a trike <1000 kg mainly for passenger transport I think the Aptera would end up in class “L5e-A“. Did not find any speed limitations though. I can recall from a discussion there is a max speed applying for ”Electric Brands Xbus“ wich classifies in category L as well.

    See for all languages (and page 94 in German version)

    https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/DE/TXT/?uri=celex%3A32013R0168

    So IF this applies, the Aptera should end up not only slimmer but shorter as well. Thats why I say it should shrink by 10%.

    And I really think that an Aptera in its current dimensions is a hard sell in Europe, as most people will think twice if they buy it as a daily commuter car. You have very narrow highway lanes (2.1m) due to construction work and a tough time in dense cities with a lorry sized car, let alone lane parking on the curbs.

    So as Curtis mentions small factory design, – I really hope for an European build somewhat redesigned Aptera but at a much much later date. Maybe with the front wheels integrated in the main body and air intakes like Mercedes EQXX.

    • This reply was modified 5 months, 1 week ago by  Titus Meusel.
    • Elzo Stubbe

      Member
      January 25, 2022 at 2:38 pm

      Aptera is so unique and will be in complete league of its own, also in Europe. Adjust the rules and do not F… up a great design by stupid rules. Same goes for the mirror rule in the US.

    • Curtis Cibinel

      Member
      January 25, 2022 at 3:58 pm

      At the end of the day european roads are narrow and the Aptera is quite wide and regardless of regulations a narrower option would likely be useful.

      Saving 23 cm (9 inches) is a moderate redesign with much of the same design principles should be doable (ie don’t need to kill the wheel pods like the EQXX). Narrow each seat by 2 inches (no need to fit american butts), narrow the body to match and bring the wheel pods closer into the body by 2.5 inches each. Making changes to the batteries and as a result the center console would probably be a last resort since that’s a lot of knock-on changes. Ya this might mean a 0.15 drag but its likely the simplest changes with the most parts in common.

      PS: Really hoping that mirror regulation stupidity gets fixed soon. Even for gas cars its an absolutely stupid waste of energy.

      • Jan Maarten Fernig

        Member
        January 27, 2022 at 4:44 am

        European roads are not narrow as a rule. You can have very narrow roads. I guess you have ‘m everywhere. Most of those are not suited for motorized 4-wheeled traffic, often forbidden. Any road suited for motorized 4-wheeled traffic is made broad enough to suit the maximum width of 2,55. So any road that is open to 4-wheeled motorized vehicles (ICE above 50 cc or electric equivalent), can be driven by a 3-wheeled 2,23 wide Aptera.

      • Elzo Stubbe

        Member
        February 3, 2022 at 2:28 pm

        my small butt would apply……

    • Jan Maarten Fernig

      Member
      January 27, 2022 at 4:38 am

      Regulations should always serve a purpose in real world applications. When the real world changes… Well, you just have to re-valuate your rules.

      The rules are not stupid, they just are. Regulators that do not follow the real world and/or do not re-valuate are the stupid ones.

      • Elzo Stubbe

        Member
        February 3, 2022 at 2:33 pm

        your right, I was just a bit frustrated.

  • Jan Maarten Fernig

    Member
    January 31, 2022 at 12:35 am

    Answer from the German KBA, as translated by Google:

    Thank you for your query, which I received from Ms. Petersen to be answered, and I would also like to thank you for the phone call I have just made and send you the following information in writing:

    The tasks of the Type Approval Department of the Federal Motor Transport Authority (KBA) include issuing operating licenses and type approvals for vehicles and vehicle parts in accordance with national and international legislation. These are defined in the regulations of the Road Traffic Licensing Regulations (StVZO) as well as the directives and regulations of the European Union and the regulations (UN-R) of the United Nations (UNECE).

    These operating permits and type approvals are issued for vehicles and vehicle parts that are manufactured in series. Individual vehicles and vehicles already on the road do not fall within the area of ​​responsibility of the KBA as the type approval authority.

    I would also like to give you the following information:
    With regard to the classification of your vehicle based on the structural and technical design, I would ask you to contact the appropriate technical service named by us, which can also assess the vehicles as part of the type approval at the KBA and carry out the corresponding tests. You can find an overview of this under the following link: https://www.kba.de/DE/Themen/Typauthorisation/Zum_Herunterladen/ErteilungTypauthorisations/verz_benannte_TD_dt_eng.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=9

    I would also like to refer to Regulation (EU) No. 168/2013 on the approval and market surveillance of two- or three-wheel and four-wheel vehicles, which could possibly be used for your three-wheel vehicle. The vehicle classifications are listed in Appendix I of the aforementioned Regulation (EU) No. 168/2013. According to this appendix, the maximum width ≀ 2,000 mm for a class “L” vehicle is decisive (depending on the subclass, there may be further width restrictions here).

    You can obtain Regulation (EU) No. 168/2013 from the following link: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/homepage.html?locale=de

    I would also like to share with you the following link on our KBA site and the type approval area, which provides a lot of information on the type approval process: https://www.kba.de/DE/Themen/Typapproval/typapproval_node.html


    Original (German):

    vielen Dank fĂŒr Ihre Anfrage die ich von Frau Petersen zur Beantwortung erhalten habe und ebenso möchte ich mich fĂŒr das soeben gefĂŒhrte Telefonat bedanken und noch folgende Informationen schriftlich senden:

    Zu den Aufgaben der Abteilung Typgenehmigung des Kraftfahrt-Bundesamtes (KBA) gehört die Erteilung von Betriebserlaubnissen und Typgenehmigungen fĂŒr Fahrzeuge und Fahrzeugteile nach nationalen und internationalen Rechtsvorschriften. Diese sind in den Regelwerken der Straßenverkehrs-Zulassungs-Ordnung (StVZO) sowie den Richtlinien und Verordnungen der EuropĂ€ischen Union und den Regelungen (UN-R) der Vereinten Nationen (UNECE) festgelegt.

    Diese Betriebserlaubnisse und Typgenehmigungen werden fĂŒr reihenweise hergestellte Fahrzeuge und Fahrzeugteile erteilt. Einzelfahrzeuge und bereits im Verkehr befindliche Fahrzeuge fallen nicht in den ZustĂ€ndigkeitsbereich des KBA als Typgenehmigungsbehörde.

    Gerne möchte ich Ihnen zudem den folgenden Hinweis geben:
    Hinsichtlich der Klassifizierung Ihres Fahrzeuges anhand der Konstruktiven und technischen Ausgestaltung bitte ich Sie sich mit einen entsprechenden, von uns benannten Technischen Dienst in Verbindung zu setzen, welcher auch im Rahmen der Typgenehmigung beim KBA die Fahrzeuge beurteilt und die entsprechenden PrĂŒfungen durchfĂŒhren kann. Eine Übersicht hierzu finden Sie unter dem folgenden Link: https://www.kba.de/DE/Themen/Typgenehmigung/Zum_Herunterladen/ErteilungTypgenehmigungen/verz_benannte_TD_dt_eng.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=9

    Des Weiteren möchte ich auf die Verordnung (EU) Nr. 168/2013 ĂŒber die Genehmigung und MarktĂŒberwachung von zwei- oder dreirĂ€drigen und vierrĂ€drigen Fahrzeugen verweisen, die gegebenenfalls fĂŒr Ihr dreirĂ€driges Fahrzeug herangezogen werden könnte. Unter Anhang I, der zuvor genannten Verordnung (EU) Nr. 168/2013 sind die Fahrzeugeinstufungen aufgefĂŒhrt. Nach diesem Anhang ist die Maximalbreite ≀ 2 000 mm fĂŒr ein Fahrzeug der Klasse “L“ maßgeblich (je nach Unterklasse kann es hier noch weitere EinschrĂ€nkungen in der Breite geben).

    Die Verordnung (EU) Nr. 168/2013 können Sie unter folgendem Link erhalten: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/homepage.html?locale=de

    Zudem möchte ich Ihnen auch noch den folgenden Link auf unserer KBA-Seite und den Bereich der Typgenehmigung mitteilen, der viele Informationen zum Typgenehmigungsverfahren aufzeigt: https://www.kba.de/DE/Themen/Typgenehmigung/typgenehmigung_node.html

    • John Malcom

      Member
      January 31, 2022 at 8:49 am

      Thanks for going to the trouble to get this and post it for us

  • Konijnerd the Great

    Member
    March 6, 2022 at 11:04 am

    So, sadly, this is a Europe Union law and we will never to be able to drive the Aptera in Europe unless the laws change, which seems unlikely… A design change from aptera also seems unlikely.

    • John Malcom

      Member
      March 6, 2022 at 4:24 pm

      Aptera is committed to EU sales and will make engineering changes to insure compliance with EU laws as well as work with EU regulators to encourage changes to the regulations to support driving Aptere in EU countries.

    • Gabriel Kemeny

      Member
      March 6, 2022 at 5:38 pm

      Several times, Chris Anthony has mentioned that they think they can sell the Aptera as is in some markets in low volumes (less than 1,000 units) and only need to worry about homologation (and comply with the rules, like the width one) after that. How true that is, has yet to be seen.

    • Titus Meusel

      Member
      March 6, 2022 at 9:33 pm

      My point is, I do not want the rules to be amended or tricked out. Ideally most regulations make sense. I can’t drive or park the Aptera in its current dimensions in my neighbourhood. I won’t let my partner drive it either on the highway where it exceeds the width of some lanes at times. People and bikers will hate it for protruding into the road when lane parking in any urban residential area if you found a spot long enough.

      How much these assumptions are valuable remains to be seen and I hope I am wrong – just because Aptera is such a smart idea, engineering and design package – but right now 2 x 4 meters is my upper limit for a reasonable car over here. And I assume most European metropolitans will reach that conclusion if they consider it as a commuter car. I am thinking about renting an outdoor parking lot somewhere just to own an Aptera an use it as my weekend cruiser.

      True: there is (sadly) a huge market for SUVs and we see Teslas, rarely S-Model or RVs parking over here – they are tolerated but you will not drive those cars on a daily basis in dense Hamburg residential area.

  • Konijnerd the Great

    Member
    March 6, 2022 at 10:42 pm

    I also wonder how much it would hurt for the wheels to come ~11cm closer to the body, which will allow it then for europe laws and roads…

    Surely stability is affected, but by a meaningful amount?

  • Philip Raymond

    Member
    March 6, 2022 at 11:50 pm

    “Surely stability is affected, but by a meaningful amount?”

    Konijn, sadly every time this subject of narrowing the wheels for Europe has come up in the past in this forum (and it has, MANY TIMES), the response has been as John said. However, whenever it’s posed as a question of stability, the answer has always been yes, narrowing the front wheels will effect stability a lot, that’s why it is what it is. From that, my gut tells me the first Aptera for Europe will probably be the 4 door sedan, sometime around 2025. It’s a more traditional 4 wheeled design. Just my opinion, not fact.

    • Konijnerd the Great

      Member
      March 7, 2022 at 12:20 am

      Thats a safe response from aptera i guess…but not a confident one. I also feel they might just skip the whole model then in europe if stability is truely so affected.. One for perhaps their new “myths debunked” video series.

      But now I am sad, I don’t see good hopes that it will be legal here then. Lawmakers are fossils, they won’t change the maximum width for a startup company I would say.

  • Curtis Cibinel

    Member
    March 7, 2022 at 3:54 pm

    The tail post by John doesn’t seem to be visible. Posting to see if it correct it…’.

    Edit: Very weird. After adding my post john’s post from ~1 hour ago is still missing. People cant delete their own posts. I keep bumping into these odd quirks with the forum platform.

    • John Malcom

      Member
      March 7, 2022 at 6:24 pm

      Curtis, a lot of issues with this application. They seem to occur at the end of a posting page. They self delete rather than adding a page and then posting the new post to the newly added page.

      We probably need a SW knowledgeable person to help with resolution. hmmmm wonder who we have on the forum with SW skills????…..

      Haden’s post on the wheel, yoke stick thread is not there either

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