More misrepresentations ahead?

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions More misrepresentations ahead?

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions More misrepresentations ahead?

  • More misrepresentations ahead?

    Posted by fgSOL24 on January 22, 2023 at 7:16 am

    To my 40,000 fellow Kool-Aid drinkers/investors I suggest a lot more reality check data is to drop ahead:

    -mileage claims will soon include the 40 miles of solar recharging (by the way, only 27 miles for me in sunny Miami per their world map). No more “an added bonus of trickle down charge”.

    -with the a/c or the heat always on (like most of us drive) the rated mileage will drop another 10%.

    -with all-wheel drive the 3rd motor will reduce battery range claims further.

    -accelerating 0-60 mph in 4 seconds will cost you dearly in energy used.

    -with a passenger and carry-on luggage the mileage will also drop.

    -no access to Superchargers or other commercial public chargers except for no good 110 amp at the mall.

    -Launch Edition deliveries will start in 2025 (all of 2023 to get funds, finish designing subsystems, tweak to survive and purchase equipment, 2024 to test cars, certify them and get approvals to sell).

    -the 1,000 mi battery will never become available (layout & thermal mgt).

    -autonomous driving Safety Pilot will need new hardware for Launch Edition cars.

    -cameras and displays will not be of the highest resolution and brightness available to save a few pennies.

    -glitchy or slow software user interface.

    -service vans only in San Diego.

    -won’t be sold in Europe. A very long 2-seater that is also very wide has limited marketability for european roads, so it will not be worth making it EU compliant.

    -their claims of “life off the grid” and “camping off the grid” will be deleted from website.

    -pricing will shoot up, claims of affordability and “freedom for everyone” will be deleted.

    -third seat will never happen and will be deleted from the FAQs.

    -the $21 million grant may be rescinded if they did not disclose to California that the car can not DC fast charge.

    craig-merrow replied 9 months, 2 weeks ago 12 Members · 13 Replies
  • 13 Replies
  • More misrepresentations ahead?

    craig-merrow updated 9 months, 2 weeks ago 12 Members · 13 Replies
  • Waiting

    January 22, 2023 at 7:27 am

    Francisco, Much of what you predict is probably true, but, we are mostly old guys who for some reason are fascinated with this autocycle. It’s really just a hobby at this point. Best to think of it that way while our wives ask, ” Are you still looking at that Aptera thing?”

  • mark-hardin

    January 22, 2023 at 9:40 am

    Wow Francisco that’s a whole lotta negativity there.

    Why don’t we all just throw in as many failure-predictions as possible?
    – Crash tests will fail miserably, sending both Aptera and CPC back to the drawing boards repeatedly
    – Shipping pre-assembled bodies from Italy will cost far more than separate, stackable parts to be assembled in California
    – Suppliers such as Elaphe will fail to deliver (parts/schedule/predicted cost), causing supply chain failures
    – Wrap and solar panels will delaminate rapidly under desert conditions
    – we could go on and on (disastrous software failures causing motor lockups, etc. etc.)

    On the other hand, looking at a few of your doomsaying claims:
    -with the a/c or the heat always on (like most of us drive) the rated mileage will drop another 10%.
    No, most of us definitely do not drive with either the a/c or heat always-on
    -with all-wheel drive the 3rd motor will reduce battery range claims further.
    No. Though the 3rd motor will likely draw down the range somewhat, it’s also reducing the load on the other two motors. Same claim can be made in the other direction, that it may enhance the regenerative braking power to the batteries somewhat.
    -accelerating 0-60 mph in 4 seconds will cost you dearly in energy used.
    How is this different from *any other vehicle on the market*, whether EV or ICE?
    -with a passenger and carry-on luggage the mileage will also drop.
    Again, this is true for any vehicle out there! Sheesh!

    • This reply was modified 10 months, 1 week ago by  Mark Hardin. Reason: typo
    • This reply was modified 10 months, 1 week ago by  Mark Hardin.
    • john-malcom

      February 13, 2023 at 8:04 pm

      Hopefully, nobody above the age of 12 was or is expecting Aptera to sail through development and achieve profitable production volume with out a plethora of issues both expected and unexpected. But the sky is not falling unless you think it is making it a self fulfilling prophecy for you. Aptera has demonstrated tenacity in the most difficult of times resulting in consistent and steady progress. Some of this list will happen, some will not. Issues will arrive and be overcome. Take them one at a time. At this point everything is moot except raising enough capital to start production. Comeback to me with your list when that is accomplished. It is the old adage “How do you eat an elephant, one bite at a time.

      • This reply was modified 9 months, 2 weeks ago by  John Malcom.
  • Fran

    January 23, 2023 at 4:40 pm

    Francisco G vs Francisco G. Yes in Spanish my first name is Francisco and My last name begins with G. So here is some reality to balance off some of Francisco’s negativity.

    Up to 40 miles of solar charging per day, Francisco says Miami only gives 27. Aptera didn’t say you’ll get an average of 40 miles per day. They said in sunny areas you could get up to 40 hours a day. The point is that there are places and times you could actually get more than 40 miles per day. On a long summer day its possible to get 40 miles per day just sitting in the parking lot. But if you put in a bit of effort, you can park facing south east in the morning and leave you hatch open. At noon face the Aptera South, and after work face it south west, all with the hatch open to optimize the sun angle. 14 hours of much better sun exposure than just sitting there, you could get 50-60 miles per day. If you build some reflectors out of space blankets or mirrors and set them on either side of the solar panels redirection the sun onto the panels, you could improve maybe up to 80 miles per day. No Misrepresentation.

    AC or heat always on like most of us drive? My heat is seldom on and I never use air conditioning, and I drive an ICE car. I don’t even listen to the radio. If you want the most efficient vehicle in the world, you should be willing to live the most efficient lifestyle. Certainly Aptera didn’t state that we’d all get great mileage, even those who waste energy by using the brakes too much, and running all accessories constantly. No Misrepresentation.

    All wheel drive reduces range further? If you run any vehicle in All wheel drive it will reduce the range. I assume you can select front wheel drive only on the AWD Aptera. When the third motor is not running, the loss of range is only from the extra weight. The motor free-wheels as good as a rear wheel with no motor. Yes you can free wheel in-wheel motors. I have asked Elaphe, and you can watch the Lightyear zero video for further evidence. The only misrepresentation here is from all of us who post our ignorance on this forum. No Aptera Misrepresentation.

    While we are speaking of ignorance, the next “reality” is wrong. “Acceleration 0-60 in 4 seconds will cost you dearly in energy used.” In fact if you look at Charts from Elaphe maximum torque acceleration is one of the most efficient operating parameters of the motor. Having 50 years of efficiency driving under my belt, I can tell you that except for extra lean ICE fuel mixture at full throttle, quick acceleration is most efficient in ICE cars too. The time when you waste energy is at the other end of a leg in your journey. Whenever you use the brakes you throw away all the kinetic energy you spend fuel or electricity to build up. Even regen braking doesn’t recapture at 100% efficiency. Coasting to slow down is the most efficient way to drive, in any car. No Aptera Misrepresentation here.

    With extra passenger and luggage the mileage will also drop. Did Aptera ever say that it wouldn’t? Every car experiences drop in mileage with heavier loads. No Aptera Misrepresentation here.

    “no access to superchargers or other commercial public chargers except for no good 110 chargers at the mall.” I just looked in my home town in upstate New York where electric cars are not common, and there are hundreds of level 2 chargers all over the place, but only four superchargers at the mall. The next closest supercharger is 30 miles away. Only Francisco Misrepresentation here.

    “Launch Edition deliveries will start in 2025… test cars, certify them, and get approval to sell.” First of all, nobody knows the future, so you can’t say when. But you are wrong about testing cars, certifying them, and getting approval to sell. Aptera is not a car, is not subject to certification, and approvals. It is an autocycle with much fewer hurdles to clear before selling. Only Francisco Misrepresentation here. Aptera has never promised to deliver by any set date. They have always set goals and again, ignorant posters on this and other forums have misled us.

    “The 1000 mile battery will never become available…” Well there you go predicting the future again. With all the scientific breakthroughs we see reported every day, especially by the Electric Viking, we may have another “game changer” any day. Sure, Aptera has not yet proved that they can build a 1000 mile battery with off the shelf parts today, but maybe by the time they fill 40,000 reservations/orders, they’ll come across that game changing battery technology that makes it easy. It may take a few years but then again it might take a few years to produce 40,000 Apterae. No Misrepresentation here except you know who.

    “autonomous driving safety pilot will need new hardware for launch edition cars.” Yes and no, new hardware (camera and sensors maybe) yes but lauch edition IS NOT A CAR, its an autocycle. And nobody at Aptera said that the launch edition was fully equiped for autonomous driving. Sorry No Misrepresentation here, except….

    “cameras and displays will not be of highest resolution and brightness…” Now finally a true statement, but irrelevant because nobody at Aptera said it would be the very best, just that they plan on providing a usable level two driving assistance. No misrepresentation here.

    “Glitchy or slow software user interface” By whose standard? How about Microsoft, that has to constantly send us updates and fixes? If they are the standard, Aptera is doing just fine. Whoever represented that Aptera user interface would be perfect on the first try, when the biggest, best computer software companies can’t achieve perfection no matter how long they try. No Misrepresentation here.

    “service vans only in San Diego.” Wow I didn’t even know there was already a service van, before any Aptera is delivered. I would say that if that is true, Aptera has the cart in front of the horse. If its not true than the only Misrepresentation here is you know who.

    “won’t be sold in Europe.” Again Francisco predicting the future. It just so happens that almost every country allows a small number (500) vehicles to be imported/sold before they require homogolation. I have already publish on this forum a possible easy solution to the “too wide” problem for Europe. It includes narrower tires, narrower wheel covers and slightly shorter suspension connections, no body modification at all. Maybe a little effort to solve the problems would get your mind off complaining and misrepresenting what Aptera can do and has accomplished.

    “their claim of life off the grid and camping off the grid will be deleted from their web site.” They may take it off their web site but many of US will be enjoying the off the grid use for the vehicle. I intend to replace my back-up generator with an extension cord from the Aptera, I intend to sleep in it on long trips (while plugged into a level 2 charger). Superchargers are too expensive, especially those that charge by the minute. See Level 2 charging is not always an inconvenience, it could be a money saver, if you learn to adapt. No Misrepresentation here, only speculation.

    “pricing will shoot up, claims of affordability and freedom for everyone will be deleted.” Pricing on every vehicle will shoot up, its the nature of the fiat money system, under the Federal Reserve. How many startup companies have produced vehicles without raising their expected price over the development years? So far Aptera is still shooting for the goal of a delivered vehicle at the same price they had 15 years ago. Yeah with Biden’s double digit real inflation, prices are bound to go up.

    “third seat will never happen and will be deleted from the FAQs.” I have already designed and published on this forum, plans for a third seat. I have even mentioned fourth and fifth seats for young/small people. If an aftermarket company doesn’t develop an easier and better seat than mine, I may do so myself. Aptera has suggested that a third seat option may be left to the aftermarket innovators. Yeah they also mentioned that they may offer one. Maybe. If my plan works out they could just offer my plans for the modification and there you go, a third seat. I see no Misrepresentation here either.

    The $21 million grant may be rescinded if…” Now finally you are using the language that does not misrepresent. Something MAY happen if,,, This is your first true statement on your rant list. But after all the work Aptera did to compete for this grant, I highly doubt they will slack off and let it slip between their fingers.

    Even their launch edition idea is an innovation that can make the manufacturing launch more efficient and smoother. I’m sure Sandy Monroe played a part in this decision. Aptera has the right people working for them and working with them. If the rest of us impatient people can just concentrate on contributing ideas and opinions without attacking and accusing, the development time will go faster for us and we will achieve the great task of Solar Mobility, which is not just a sales slogan, but a common dream and vision that will come to pass in time.

    Look back at successful start-up companies in this field and show me one company who has come as far in the two+ years as Aptera has since late 2020. If you can’t do anything else, at least pray for Aptera staff and ask God to give them wisdom and direction, and funding.

    The other Francisco G

  • DesertSkies

    February 13, 2023 at 4:54 pm

    I am aware that “negativity” (I prefer to call it “a measure of realism and practicality”) are not greeted well by “fans,” so I am going to offer a little support for Francisco G (aka fgSOL24).

    I agree that the “40 miles per day without plug-in charging” thing is a heavily idealized estimate. As with any product, “individual user results may vary.” I live in Palm Springs, California (intense sun!) and I *do* use the A/C at all times from March to October, so I expect 30-35 miles per day. But I drive less than 5000 miles per year (PS is small), so I do anticipate no-plug-in driving most of the time. An owner in Seattle or Boston will not have the same result.

    I agree that LEs will not begin to be delivered until 2025, if then. Fundraising and the success thereof is still very uncertain.

    I think you are correct about the 1000 mile battery, unless battery technology changes within 5 years (and it may!).

    Service vans in San Diego only, definitely. Thus the “right to repair” strategy.

    I agree that the vehicle is unlikely to be marketed in much of Europe. If nothing else, the number of daylight hours per 24-hour period is much smaller in northern Europe in particular, voiding the “miles per day without plug-in.” That, and the city streets are frequently far too narrow. The thought of driving an Aptera on the streets of London or Rome makes me laugh. And driving on non-urban English B roads? Fuhgettaboutit!

    The ultimate cost per unit will be significantly higher than currently projected. I suspect at least 15-20% higher.

    I anticipate that the vehicle *will* pass the necessary crash test ratings. I take the Smart car as a guide.

    Yes, shipping pre-assembled bodies from Italy, as currently envisaged, will be more costly and will raise the “sticker price” from its current estimate.

    There will of course be periodic supply chain issues. That is simply the reality in which we now live, regardless of the product or service.

    The vinyl wrap will definitely have a very short lifespan in certain regions, including my own. But I had not thought about solar cell delamination. Ugh! Seems possible, even likely.

  • david-marlow

    February 13, 2023 at 5:50 pm

    I amguilty of some misrepresentations to my friends as I have been telling them for the last two years “I should have it in about a year”.

    Yes, there have been a number of delays so far, but as far as I can see they have all been to make Aptera better fit what what we want and to get ready to launch a full production vehicle.

    As they clearly state money is the current hang up and it is very evident that they are trying everything they can to resolve that and I am doing what I can to help, are You?


    February 13, 2023 at 6:34 pm

    Most likely given Aptera’s track record of them.

  • raymond-green

    February 16, 2023 at 1:52 pm

    I can’t believe nobody has mentioned the possiblility that an asteroid strike will significantly delay Aptera’s production schedule, or eliminate it altogether. Probably won’t even be able to get my deposit back! 😄

    • Greek

      February 16, 2023 at 2:03 pm

      As long as it doesn’t land in Modena…..I’m still hopeful.

    • ROMAD

      February 16, 2023 at 2:26 pm

      Ah, but the photons given off by the exploding asteroid will give your Aptera a quick charge!

      • Greek

        February 16, 2023 at 2:41 pm

        Level 4 charging?

        • craig-merrow

          February 16, 2023 at 3:16 pm

          More like warp drive!

    • george-hughes

      February 16, 2023 at 3:15 pm

      I made the following point before, but whether Aptera can get five, ten or twenty miles a day from the sun, if the worst outcome results in a collapse of society and we’re in some apocalyptic dystopia, I want as many Aptera in that future world. They are like a horse in that someday, except better. It will carry you 30 miles a day or more and when you put it in the pasture, it doesn’t eat the grass, it just sits there in the sun. It doesn’t poop, it doesn’t eat and it will power a DVD player and projector for entertainment 🙂

      I will point out one observation from above in which I take exception and that is the potential for Aptera in Europe. The advantage that Aptera has there (discounting the smaller solar boos) is its operational efficiency … Energy, including electric energy is typically more expensive in Europe. Efficiency, remember, that is a factor of two or greater over the most efficient competing EV. In EPA terms, Aptera will with its efficiency-maximizing motors (more efficient that the standard elaphe motor on which it is based as noted by its de-emphasis on power/acceleration from 50kw to 43kw and 3.5 0-100kph v. 4.0 0-100kph.

      European cities will likely ban private cars in those areas of the city where roads are most congested. This simply means when these events occur, it won’t make much difference whether you’re driving a M-B, Microlina or 2cv, you aren’t operating in certain sections of specific cities. For highway travel in the 20-600km day trip, Aptera’s CF lightweight construction and extreme efficiency is highly prized. Consumer demand will open the doors and the use of early imports to popularize the model is likely. Playing heavily in the process is the EU membership of CPC and Elaphe.

or to reply.