Launch Edition will have 40-60 Kw DC charging

[FoggyOptic]

Good call, but that makes the previous announcement, and by extension the reasoning behind it, that much more confusing.

[raymond-nettleton]

I am still waiting for how much and when, and how are they cooling the batteries.

Does this mean there will be 2 Tesla charge ports? Just as confused as before.

[RajGiandeep]

Just 1 charging port. It can do AC and DC fast charging within the same plug. What they are showing on the internals behind the plug.

[paul-richard]

As a non-engineer what does this mean? How many miles will I receive with 30 minutes on a fast charger? What is the spread between 40 and 60 kwh?

[Brassaxe]

Ideally it will charge at just under 1.6% per minute. But that will be ideal. I would guess 20-80% would take 50 minutes to 1 hour, but 0-100% might take over double that because the last percentage to get to 100% take significantly longer.

• This reply was modified 10 months, 1 week ago by  Brad Renninger.

[joshua-rosen]

400 miles per hour, not great but acceptable. As a practical matter that’s 100 miles in 15 minutes, i.e. a bathroom break time. When I Supercharge that’s the amount I usually get. On a road trip all you need to do is add 100 miles every now and then.

[aren-ewing]

Awesome news and just the right amount of charging, getting to 100% in about an hour. I switched to LE, based in Carlsbad just down the street from you!

[993cc]

Still not clear that there is any agreement about using the Supercharger network, but I’ll take it.

In my region I’ll mostly be using the CCS adapter anyway.

[paul-schultz]

I’ve got to give the Aptera team their due… First business day after the overwhelming response about DCFC and they get in front of the video camera and set things right. Well done. You are moving fast on this vehicle development and it was nice to see that you still listen to your supporters. You restored some of the good vibes with your quick response.

Paul

[Tom]

Absolutely. And it was great to see Steve and Chris comfortable in front of the camera again. Good news does that, I guess. Bravo and Brava, Aptera!

[BigSky]

I think this explanation goes a long way to fix the reveal. What I heard (not what they said…) was they dropped the development of DCFC due to the CCS plug size issues and they did not prioritize, felt it was less important, or just failed to recognize they needed to ramp it back up after confirming the Tesla plug. The mea culpa is very much appreciated and helps appreciate where they are and how they intend to close the gap. I can live with 40-60 KW. This is the transparency we come to expect from these guys as we trust them as reservation holders and investors. Two things the company needs to consider as learning going forward is they should pull a small test group under a CDA to get feedback before a broad reveal and, second, preproduce the reveal rather than try to do it live. I would even collect questions from the test group and prepare a common Q&A prerecorded before opening for live questions. They need to anticipate these kinds of reactions before communicating broadly.

• This reply was modified 10 months, 1 week ago by  BigSky Country.

[ray-holan]

Speaking as an Aptera reservation holder who did not anticipate using DCFC (my longest road trip will be about 300 miles), I am greatly relieved Aptera IS doing DCFC out of the gate. The net effect is to shore up support in the Aptera community — that is a key ingredient in the recipe to attract more interest and investment. It also damps down negative press from news sources. For example, I noticed a clickbait headline from CleanTechnica this morning that lumped Aptera in with Arcimoto as “heading for the abyss…” Really? Go Aptera!

When the going gets tough, the tough get going.

It doesn’t cost us to bet on Aptera success and be optimistic in the face of cynical skepticism — unless you invested $100K hoping to parlay that into $300K when Aptera goes public and they don’t make it!

[john-metcalf]

This is indeed great news. I switched to the LE soon after the presentation on Friday, not really hoping for the DCFC right away, but as a future addition. This relieves my anxiety.

I did add the “off-road” option to my spec, but my dashboard still says Launch Edition. If so, the off-road package (recommended to me based on snowy climate) must be considered a doable add-on. Fingers crossed.

[UnidentifiedDrivingObject]

Wow Aptera just made a full 180, 3 days later. DCFC is baaack! I pay homage to the Aptera gods. Our pleas were heard. Thank You Steve & Chris!

Now back to 400mi (from 600mi) I go..

Too bad LE only comes with Luna and no Off Road Kit (mine has Noir and ORK, only difference). Anywho, I am still near Carlsbad HQ. Early delivery is possible…

[richard-palmisano]

This was so stunningly obvious and a no-brainer addition, which brings me to my original question when watching the launch webinar: Why would you bring forth your first product without DC fast charging? Did they not work out the thermal management? Did they not engineer the cooling?

I was very put off my the notion that “most won’t need it”. I’m sorry but, anyone who was intending to buy an Aptera needs it. Solar charging is incredible but, it’s icing on the cake. It’s not the cake. It could never be the cake. You needed fast charging to make the vehicle viable.

It really makes me wonder honestly if they have their heads on straight. All the ‘enviro-friendly’ messaging and signaling is great. All for it. But practicality is paramount. Now, with a 40 kwh charging rate, practicality is back.

• This reply was modified 10 months, 1 week ago by  Richard Palmisano.

[Milson]

We do need some clarification on if add-ons throw you off launch edition spec or not. I switched, but kept safety pilot, camp kit and off-road. Like others my order page clearly still says it’s launch edition, but I’d probably forego those things depending..

[JRWiley]

@Michael Wilson I’ve posed this question to Aptera. Official answer should be coming soon. I too have an add-on to my LE. In the mean time here is what I picked up off the pre-order form for the LE:

– On the LE reservation page, it states “Add these Launch Edition upgrades to start . . .”

– (I THINK the following is correct) The LE is $33,200 without upgrades. When I added Safety Pilot ($1,300) my statement now reflects the addition of $1,300, or $34,500.

I’ll post when I get an answer about effect on LE specs and delivery time.

[GaryMiller]

Well Huzzah for fast charging.

There was a statement that 90% of people would not need fast charging. I
would like to offer an orthogonal view. (See object oriented design to define orthogonal view.) People only need it 10% of the time, but
nearly everyone needs it.

While I would not need it most of the time, I definitely need it some of the time. It has been a “must have” for me. While a fully charged 40kw battery would get me 300 miles (I’ll stay optimistic on that range for now) to visit my grandson, it would need a few hours of AC charging at 6.6kw to make the trip back home. It would have been very inconvenient and they are hours I would not get to spend with my grandson.

The news is good.

[Jeff]

The latest news release is illuminating:

“We will be able to offer between 40 and 60kW of DC Fast Charging with our Launch Edition vehicles. Once testing is complete, we will provide an update on our max charge rates. We will also be working on a 100kW version for release down the road.

Our DC Fast Charging system is designed to work with the Super Charger Network, so if Tesla agrees to open their network up to Aptera owners, your Launch Edition vehicle will be ready to go. Tesla’s Supercharging network has 60% more North American Charging Standard posts than all of the CCS-equipped networks combined, so it could be a huge selling point for future Aptera owners.”

https://aptera.us/dc-fast-charging-now-standard/

DC Fast Charging Now Standard

[joshua-rosen]

Glad to see they are working on a 100KW version. I’m gated by the State of Massachusetts, Aptera’s production schedule is probably not the long pole for me. Hopefully they will have the 100KW version by the time that Massachusetts legalizes autocycles.

[richard-mitchell]

Perhaps an engineer out there can explain to me how the difference in the weight of the copper buss bar could be the concern regarding the inclusion of the DCFC option. It just doesn’t make sense to me that the buss bar would be a significant contributor to overall vehicle weight. Cost- yes, copper is expensive, but weight?

I would hope that Aptera is planning on having a capability of delivering more than 40-60 kW/hr to the larger battery vehicles. If it takes 2 1/2 – 3 hours to charge a 1000 kW vehicle, will that meet expectations of reservation holders. How far might Aptera be able to push the charging rate, and what will be the limiting factors? Will it be the buss bar…or the battery thermal management (which I don’t believe either addressed in this short video segment). If thermal management, is there a long-term plan to address that issue?

[kerbe2705]

@Richard Mitchell I’m guessing that weight wasn’t the sole reason – that it was an “in addition to everything ELSE about this…” sort of thing…

[john-trotter]

In many of the discussion about charge times for 40kWe or 60Kwe (or 100kWe) folks seem to assume a flat charge curve. (40 kWe would charge a 40kWe battery fully in 1 hour). My Tesla holds peak charge only over small range at low charge levels and throttles above 40 or 50% and much more above 80%. I would prefer a flat 40 kWe charge to a strongly-throttled 60 kWe charge. (41 kWe battery) I am sure that the curve would be different for each battery (250/400/600/1000) and would also vary depending on environmental conditions, specifically battery temperature. (ie: “preconditioning.”)

[GaryMiller]

Charging a lithium battery is serious business with a lot of details, but here is the 30,000 foot view:

When starting to charge, the charger will be in constant current mode. This is called bulk charge mode. In the middle of the charge (40% to 80% of capacity), the voltage on the LiFePo battery will be fairly constant so there is a constant amount of power being fed into the battery.

As the battery gets to about 80% full, the voltage on the battery starts to rise. The charger recognizes the increased voltage and reduces the current. This is called the absorption charging state. While there is lower current and higher voltage, it may seem like the power will be the same, but the current drops faster than the voltage rises. The charge power drops.

When the maximum voltage is reached, the current is stopped. Charging has completed. It can take a VERY long time to get the last 10% into the battery.

All of this is done with a lot of precision. The accuracy required for charging lithium chemistry batteries is 0.75%. Designing equipment that handles 300v and 200 amps with that precision is a significant challenge. From this Engineer to the Engineers at Apetera, that is impressive work.

• This reply was modified 10 months, 1 week ago by  Gary Miller. Reason: messy HTML tags removed

[laura-batchelor]

As someone who has never had an EV, this is helpful. Can you please post an approximate charging time for going from 20% to 80% at an EVgo fast charging station, 50kW (CHAdeMO or Combo $0.35 per minute) or 7.2 kW (Level 2 $0.25 per minute)? I’m trying to get a handle on how much time it would take to get enough range to go 100 miles back to our home. (Total trip is 200 miles.) We’re getting the Launch Edition with 400 miles, but figure a 30% loss of range for AWD, AC and expressway speeds, so will probably need it to be at 80%. I know the charging time will vary, but just wanted to get a reasonable idea of what to expect – 10 minutes, 30 minutes, an hour? Thanks.

• This reply was modified 10 months ago by  Laura Batchelor.

[kerbe2705]

@Laura Batchelor There are SOOO many variables, just like in an ICE vehicle: High MPG cars tend to have smaller fuel tanks that take less time to fill while lower MPG vehicles tend to have much larger tanks that take longer to fill.

If Aptera has 50 kW DC charging capability it will charge at the same rate no matter what the capability of the dispenser – 50 kW, 150 kW, 250 kW, 350 kW. The same goes for L2 AC charging: If Aptera has a 6.6 kW onboard charger, that’s the maximum amount of power it can accept, no matter what the rating of the EVSE.

(I think you’re overestimating Aptera’s range losses: Aptera has estimated that AWD will have about 10% less range than FWD and Aptera’s aerodynamics will allow it to take less of a hit traveling at speed than other EVs. AC systems don’t need to guzzle electrons, especially if you’re just cooling and dehumidifying, not refrigerating the interior of the vehicle. I know that my car, parked in full Mississippi sun and humidity on a 90+ degree day will lose about 6/10 of a mile of range per hour, just running the AC, recirculating, low fan speed.)

The “sweet spot” for DC charging seems to be pretty universally between 20 and 80% – that’s when the battery will accept the greatest amount of power it can. Above 80% it starts to slow down and below 20% it takes a while to ramp-up. It can take the same amount of time to charge from 80-100% as it does to charge from 20-80%.

Aptera is guesstimating 13 miles of range added per hour of charging on L1, 57 miles per hour on L2 and 400 miles per hours on DCFC. If you’re charging from 20-80%, that’s 60% of the battery’s capacity – or 240 miles of range. So you can pretty well guess that it will take 18.5 hours on L1, 4.25 hours on L2 and a little over half an hour on DCFC.

[seth]

It sounds like they were aiming for at least 100-150kw dcfc before giving up. Is that still in the works? Obviously not for launch edition, but within 1-2 years.

Charging 2-4 times faster means crowding the limited chargers less and less. Still not as fast as pumping 10gallons of gas/minute, but almost fast enough to replace gas stations especially if a good chunk of people charge at home/work

[BigSky]

I have been thinking about the argument that the fast charging at 50 KW will be faster given the efficiency of the vehicle. I know there will be cooling challenges on this vehicle, but theoretical minimum charge time on the LE from 10 to 90% will be 38.4 minutes. Depending on how long the peak charge rate can be maintained, it is more likely it will take more like an hour to charge. I think it would be important somewhere along the journey to determine what needs to be true to enable that charge time to be less than 20 minutes. We were all pretty vocal when DC fast charging was out of the LE and the company’s response was awesome. With the message on how important this feature is, I hope there is already work going into figuring out how to speed that up.

[BigSky]

We will need to wait until final testing to be sure, but I am concerned the 40 – 60 KW charging speeds are going to provide a disappointing charging experience. I know there are cooling capacity concerns at play here, but I do think this needs to be on Aptera’s radar. Let’s be clear. No battery will hold the maximum charging speed throughout the charging session. Charging speeds slow down significantly as the battery charge increases. It is not uncommon for the average charge speed to be half of the peak. A 10-80% charging session is 28 KWh. If the Aptera averages a 4 mile per min charge rate (~25 KW), then it could take 70 minutes to complete. This would put the charging experience in the company of the Chevy Bolt, which is greatly panned for this reason. So, I really hope the company is giving the cooling system for charging speed some thought. Despite the car’s smaller battery, the charging will not be very good.

[Kamakiri]

Your math seems off there and skipping units doesn’t make sense. I don’t see the charge rate dropping to some arbitrary 25kW level, just because you’re guessing that it will. C/8 isn’t pushing a heavy charge.

[john-malcom]

I am surprised that you would be critical of someone’s guess as you are kind of the king of guessing on the forum. Just my opinion. I owned a Tesla Model 3 and currently a Bolt. Charging of both (Not at home on level 2) slows down and gets slower the closer to full the vehicle becomes. Both the Bolt and Aptera DC fast charging rates are relatively slow compared to other EVs and have received critical comments because of the implemented charging speed. In the case of the Aptera not such an impact because of the efficiency of the vehicle. Both adequate for my use cases. Not so for those that routinely take longer road trips as the comments reflect.

[BigSky]

My logic for the average 25 KW average was laid out based on other vehicles’ charging curve dropping off over time.

[Kamakiri]

But that’s dropping off to make the average less than half? Doesn’t make sense to me, even considering the reduced rates as the pack tops-off. It sounded like you were mixing up a conversion somewhere.

[Tom]

Attached is the Charging Curve (Charging Power vs. Percent State of Charge) for DCFC of a 2017 Bolt (granted, this may well be apples and oranges when considering the Aptera). But note that the charging power remains near 50 kW from 0 to 45% SOC and then drops off (roughly) linearly from 50 to 18 kW from 45% to 80% SOC. So, for your 10% to 80% charge 10% to 45% is at 50 kW (half of the 70%) and 45% to 80% (the other half) averages 34 kW. So, the overall average is 42 kW, not 25 kW. Of course, the Bolt has a 65 kWh battery and the Aptera LE will have a 40 (or 42) kWh battery, so the charging curve could be quite different (I’m sure it also depends on the charging electronics, overload protections, etc.). BUT, if the average is the same for the Aptera (big BUT), then 10% to 80% charge would take 70% * (battery capacity) / (charge rate) = 0.7 hours or 42 minutes (assuming a 42 kWh battery and a 42 kW average charging power).

[BigSky]

Nice add. My extrapolation was more simplistic and yours is better. There are a lot of big ifs, and the small battery size will be a benefit for sure. I would hope to do better than 42 minutes on a small battery. I ordered a 600 and I would hate to sit a long time at remote charging stations.

[Tom]

A big difference between the Bolt and the Aptera is the watts/mile. The Aptera should be 2x to 3x more efficient. Not to mention solar trickle charging benefits. Not to mention that this is often only an issue if you can’t charge at home or if your daily demand exceeds the vehicle’s range (e.g., road trips).

[D2E]

I’ll find out driving back from California to Harmony, NC what charging rates and time will be. Trying to map out best route.

[BigSky]

I agree on most of your points. My intention for the vehicle is a road tripper. Around home, I am actually thinking I would rarely need to charge it, and most of the time there is free L2 laying around. My concern will be long charge times in remote locations. I just don’t want to have to sit around for the better part of an hour just to charge a small battery. I can live with 100 KW getting me in the 20-30 min range.