- MemberJanuary 23, 2023 at 2:52 pm
Good call, but that makes the previous announcement, and by extension the reasoning behind it, that much more confusing.
- MemberJanuary 23, 2023 at 3:04 pm
I am still waiting for how much and when, and how are they cooling the batteries.
Does this mean there will be 2 Tesla charge ports? Just as confused as before.
- MemberJanuary 23, 2023 at 3:05 pm
Just 1 charging port. It can do AC and DC fast charging within the same plug. What they are showing on the internals behind the plug.
- MemberJanuary 23, 2023 at 3:17 pm
As a non-engineer what does this mean? How many miles will I receive with 30 minutes on a fast charger? What is the spread between 40 and 60 kwh?
- MemberJanuary 23, 2023 at 3:31 pm
Ideally it will charge at just under 1.6% per minute. But that will be ideal. I would guess 20-80% would take 50 minutes to 1 hour, but 0-100% might take over double that because the last percentage to get to 100% take significantly longer.
- This reply was modified 1 week ago by Brad Renninger.
- MemberJanuary 23, 2023 at 3:33 pm
400 miles per hour, not great but acceptable. As a practical matter that’s 100 miles in 15 minutes, i.e. a bathroom break time. When I Supercharge that’s the amount I usually get. On a road trip all you need to do is add 100 miles every now and then.
- MemberJanuary 23, 2023 at 3:18 pm
So close to changing my 400 mile 2wd for the LE. Didn’t want to pay extra for the 3rd motor not sure on the premium sound. The full solar hatch is also something I wasn’t planning on.
I am around 25,000 overall so I doubt changing to the LE would actually move me up in line anyway. I am still thinking about upgrading to 600 even with the DC fast charging.
Is there a set number of LE or is there a target?
- MemberJanuary 23, 2023 at 3:21 pm
Great news, but what happened with the “thermal management”? It’s strange that they did not address the core of the fast charging issue. I guess they will have 1 year to solve it while they are waiting for that $50M investment and setting up the production line. Hopefully they will do it in time.
- MemberJanuary 24, 2023 at 9:17 am
With only 50kw DCFC, cooling can be achieved easily, without complex hardware. Once you enter 150kw and above, then thermal cooling needs to be more robust
- MemberJanuary 23, 2023 at 3:36 pm
Awesome news and just the right amount of charging, getting to 100% in about an hour. I switched to LE, based in Carlsbad just down the street from you!
- MemberJanuary 23, 2023 at 4:05 pm
Still not clear that there is any agreement about using the Supercharger network, but I’ll take it.
In my region I’ll mostly be using the CCS adapter anyway.
- MemberJanuary 23, 2023 at 4:21 pm
Thx guys we appreciate that you listened to us.🤩
- MemberJanuary 23, 2023 at 4:43 pm
I just changed my order to the LE plus Safety Pilot, following the announcement of the included DCFC. Will Safety Pilot delay my order? Is my total cost $34,500 or $35,800? Am I correct that the Safety Pilot will not be available at delivery time but will arrive later OTA?
Thanks in advance for your response.
- MemberJanuary 23, 2023 at 4:53 pm
LE is a fixed spec.
If it has safety pilot it is not an LE and would arrive a bit later.🤓
If you changed the option then it will probably now show up as being NOT an LE on your order page.
- This reply was modified 6 days, 23 hours ago by Llewellyn Evans.
- MemberJanuary 23, 2023 at 6:01 pm
You may be right about the Safety Pilot delaying my order which is what I thought might be the case; however, it is still showing I have a LE on order. I have also directed my questions to Aptera, so maybe they can clear this up. Thanks.
- MemberJanuary 23, 2023 at 7:24 pm
I was wondering the same thing. Can you please post here when you find out whether the Launch Edition hardware will support the Safety pilot and face monitoring in an over the air update?
- MemberJanuary 24, 2023 at 4:44 am
Yes, please let us know. I came to the forums to find out this exact information. The DCFC will take me to the launch edition now, but I wasn’t willing to give up the Safety Pilot. Now that I know I can still add that to the order I’ll switch over now! But it will hold me up from processing my order.
- This reply was modified 6 days, 11 hours ago by Clint Nichols Nichols.
- MemberJanuary 24, 2023 at 1:50 pm
My thoughts were that one can upgrade to safety pilot at any point in the future.
- MemberJanuary 23, 2023 at 5:05 pm
I’ve got to give the Aptera team their due… First business day after the overwhelming response about DCFC and they get in front of the video camera and set things right. Well done. You are moving fast on this vehicle development and it was nice to see that you still listen to your supporters. You restored some of the good vibes with your quick response.
- MemberJanuary 23, 2023 at 5:08 pm
Absolutely. And it was great to see Steve and Chris comfortable in front of the camera again. Good news does that, I guess. Bravo and Brava, Aptera!
- MemberJanuary 23, 2023 at 6:35 pm
I think this explanation goes a long way to fix the reveal. What I heard (not what they said…) was they dropped the development of DCFC due to the CCS plug size issues and they did not prioritize, felt it was less important, or just failed to recognize they needed to ramp it back up after confirming the Tesla plug. The mea culpa is very much appreciated and helps appreciate where they are and how they intend to close the gap. I can live with 40-60 KW. This is the transparency we come to expect from these guys as we trust them as reservation holders and investors. Two things the company needs to consider as learning going forward is they should pull a small test group under a CDA to get feedback before a broad reveal and, second, preproduce the reveal rather than try to do it live. I would even collect questions from the test group and prepare a common Q&A prerecorded before opening for live questions. They need to anticipate these kinds of reactions before communicating broadly.
- This reply was modified 6 days, 21 hours ago by BigSky Country.
- ModeratorJanuary 24, 2023 at 4:59 am
Speaking as an Aptera reservation holder who did not anticipate using DCFC (my longest road trip will be about 300 miles), I am greatly relieved Aptera IS doing DCFC out of the gate. The net effect is to shore up support in the Aptera community — that is a key ingredient in the recipe to attract more interest and investment. It also damps down negative press from news sources. For example, I noticed a clickbait headline from CleanTechnica this morning that lumped Aptera in with Arcimoto as “heading for the abyss…” Really? Go Aptera!
When the going gets tough, the tough get going.
It doesn’t cost us to bet on Aptera success and be optimistic in the face of cynical skepticism — unless you invested $100K hoping to parlay that into $300K when Aptera goes public and they don’t make it!
- MemberJanuary 23, 2023 at 7:01 pm
Thank you, Team Aptera!!! Switched my reservation to Launch Edition!
- MemberJanuary 23, 2023 at 7:02 pm
This is indeed great news. I switched to the LE soon after the presentation on Friday, not really hoping for the DCFC right away, but as a future addition. This relieves my anxiety.
I did add the “off-road” option to my spec, but my dashboard still says Launch Edition. If so, the off-road package (recommended to me based on snowy climate) must be considered a doable add-on. Fingers crossed.
- ModeratorJanuary 23, 2023 at 9:01 pm
John Metcalf. Launch Edition is as described. Period. The whole point is to have an initial batch of absolutely standard products. I gave up on Off-road when I saw the reasonable clearance of regular suspension and after I reflected on how little is known about what “off road” really means for Aptera. Shorter wheel skirts?
- MemberJanuary 23, 2023 at 9:10 pm
I still kept the ORK on my order, as I need approx 7” ground clearance between pavement and any part of the wheel pants (and/or aluminum belly pan). Curb rash avoidance too on right wheel pant when parallel parking on streets (guaranteed, I know myself it will happen on stock Aptera wheel pant ground clearance). Plus with the added ground clearance, I can possibly reach the Schrader tire valves to adjust air (without removing said wheel pants). Lots of Pros to me.
- MemberJanuary 23, 2023 at 8:56 pm
Wow Aptera just made a full 180, 3 days later. DCFC is baaack! I pay homage to the Aptera gods. Our pleas were heard. Thank You Steve & Chris!
Now back to 400mi (from 600mi) I go..
Too bad LE only comes with Luna and no Off Road Kit (mine has Noir and ORK, only difference). Anywho, I am still near Carlsbad HQ. Early delivery is possible…
- MemberJanuary 24, 2023 at 4:50 am
This was so stunningly obvious and a no-brainer addition, which brings me to my original question when watching the launch webinar: Why would you bring forth your first product without DC fast charging? Did they not work out the thermal management? Did they not engineer the cooling?
I was very put off my the notion that “most won’t need it”. I’m sorry but, anyone who was intending to buy an Aptera needs it. Solar charging is incredible but, it’s icing on the cake. It’s not the cake. It could never be the cake. You needed fast charging to make the vehicle viable.
It really makes me wonder honestly if they have their heads on straight. All the ‘enviro-friendly’ messaging and signaling is great. All for it. But practicality is paramount. Now, with a 40 kwh charging rate, practicality is back.
- This reply was modified 6 days, 11 hours ago by Richard Palmisano.
- MemberJanuary 26, 2023 at 2:03 pm
Actually, there are many Aptera reservation holders like me who may never use DCFC. I expect that as much as half of my charging will be done with the solar panels alone, augmented with home charging once a month. But even though I won’t need DCFC, I do want it. Both for the future value of my Aptera, and for the value of supporting Aptera DC fast charging for everyone who does need it. The good news is that Aptera listened and responded positively and quickly.
- MemberJanuary 24, 2023 at 3:28 pm
We do need some clarification on if add-ons throw you off launch edition spec or not. I switched, but kept safety pilot, camp kit and off-road. Like others my order page clearly still says it’s launch edition, but I’d probably forego those things depending..
- MemberJanuary 25, 2023 at 5:10 am
@Michael Wilson I’ve posed this question to Aptera. Official answer should be coming soon. I too have an add-on to my LE. In the mean time here is what I picked up off the pre-order form for the LE:
– On the LE reservation page, it states “Add these Launch Edition upgrades to start . . .”
– (I THINK the following is correct) The LE is $33,200 without upgrades. When I added Safety Pilot ($1,300) my statement now reflects the addition of $1,300, or $34,500.
I’ll post when I get an answer about effect on LE specs and delivery time.
- MemberJanuary 24, 2023 at 4:15 pm
Well Huzzah for fast charging.
There was a statement that 90% of people would not need fast charging. I
would like to offer an orthogonal view. (See object oriented design to define orthogonal view.) People only need it 10% of the time, but
nearly everyone needs it.
While I would not need it most of the time, I definitely need it some of the time. It has been a “must have” for me. While a fully charged 40kw battery would get me 300 miles (I’ll stay optimistic on that range for now) to visit my grandson, it would need a few hours of AC charging at 6.6kw to make the trip back home. It would have been very inconvenient and they are hours I would not get to spend with my grandson.
The news is good.
- MemberJanuary 24, 2023 at 8:48 pm
The latest news release is illuminating:
“We will be able to offer between 40 and 60kW of DC Fast Charging with our Launch Edition vehicles. Once testing is complete, we will provide an update on our max charge rates. We will also be working on a 100kW version for release down the road.
Our DC Fast Charging system is designed to work with the Super Charger Network, so if Tesla agrees to open their network up to Aptera owners, your Launch Edition vehicle will be ready to go. Tesla’s Supercharging network has 60% more North American Charging Standard posts than all of the CCS-equipped networks combined, so it could be a huge selling point for future Aptera owners.”
- MemberJanuary 26, 2023 at 6:06 am
40 for a 40kwh pack and 100 kw down the road like maybe when the 99kwh pack is ready. Makes sense, both would have a charge rate of about 1C.
- MemberJanuary 25, 2023 at 7:15 am
IMHO for so many reasons the DCFC modification was a timely and decisive move on the part of the Aptera team. I’ve always intended to play the long game and keep my original order for the 1,000 mile range, 3 WD, all the bells and whistles version, but it’s good to see they can adapt and overcome as the pitch changes and evolves. And for the record, speaking just for myself, the trip of life is full of unforeseen curve balls. I’m assuming my final delivered vehicle will cost more than predicted, take longer than expected, have a lower range than promised. No big deal; that is often the story of life. I try to be practical and realistic in all my expectations. Occasionally I am sometimes pleasantly surprised when my expectations are exceeded. I’ll hope for the latter but wont be surprised or devastated by the former. GO APTERA!
- MemberJanuary 25, 2023 at 7:25 am
Glad to see they are working on a 100KW version. I’m gated by the State of Massachusetts, Aptera’s production schedule is probably not the long pole for me. Hopefully they will have the 100KW version by the time that Massachusetts legalizes autocycles.
- MemberJanuary 25, 2023 at 9:01 am
I’d expect that the 100kW fast charge rate is for the larger battery sizes (600 and 1000 mile). That’d be roughly consistent with the 60kW upper (peak?) rate on the 42kWh battery.
- MemberJanuary 25, 2023 at 8:52 pm
Perhaps an engineer out there can explain to me how the difference in the weight of the copper buss bar could be the concern regarding the inclusion of the DCFC option. It just doesn’t make sense to me that the buss bar would be a significant contributor to overall vehicle weight. Cost- yes, copper is expensive, but weight?
I would hope that Aptera is planning on having a capability of delivering more than 40-60 kW/hr to the larger battery vehicles. If it takes 2 1/2 – 3 hours to charge a 1000 kW vehicle, will that meet expectations of reservation holders. How far might Aptera be able to push the charging rate, and what will be the limiting factors? Will it be the buss bar…or the battery thermal management (which I don’t believe either addressed in this short video segment). If thermal management, is there a long-term plan to address that issue?
- MemberJanuary 26, 2023 at 9:58 am
Copper is expensive. A 1″x1/4″x12″ buss bar on Amazon is $25, but the part in the video is larger and a custom shape. I would guess at least $200 for that part, and at least two are required at the charger port. Assuming a 300v battery (I don’t know), 60kw charging will need to carry 200 amps. That current will exist at many points in the electronics requiring buss bars in many places. Hopefully, they are short to save cost and weight.
Weight concerns are paramount in the culture at Aptera. Having been in the experimental aircraft field, I can tell you that people have repainted their plane to save 3 pounds. Weight is a big deal at Aptera, too. If they ignore an ounce here and there, it could add up to 100 pounds and more. They are miserly with weight and rightfully so.
In this case, the cost and weight had to be absorbed since the fast charge feature is such a “must have” for so many customers.
- MemberJanuary 26, 2023 at 10:39 am
It’s true that weight is gained or lost a tiny bit at a time. How do you shave a kilo off of a build? One gram at a time. It all adds up (or down).
- MemberJanuary 26, 2023 at 1:29 pm
$200 for a single copper bus bar? C’mon. Copper is currently $4.26/lb. Use some common sense here. (Or at least employ some basic arithmetic.)
- MemberJanuary 26, 2023 at 2:43 pm
The cost of the buss bar is driven less the material than the custom forming. I found a 1 foot 3/0 gauge copper wire (200 amp capacity) on sale for $7.
This wire is highly massed produced on a roller to roller system.
Years ago, I had to get a cost for a piece of stainless steel that was S shaped. It was going to be part of a system to measure the weight of a high voltage transmission line so icing could be detected. The price of stainless is about $2.31 now and was much less at the time of the quote. The 2 pound piece was quoted at $250. Custom machining is a big deal.
- ModeratorJanuary 26, 2023 at 10:43 am
In many of the discussion about charge times for 40kWe or 60Kwe (or 100kWe) folks seem to assume a flat charge curve. (40 kWe would charge a 40kWe battery fully in 1 hour). My Tesla holds peak charge only over small range at low charge levels and throttles above 40 or 50% and much more above 80%. I would prefer a flat 40 kWe charge to a strongly-throttled 60 kWe charge. (41 kWe battery) I am sure that the curve would be different for each battery (250/400/600/1000) and would also vary depending on environmental conditions, specifically battery temperature. (ie: “preconditioning.”)
- MemberJanuary 26, 2023 at 3:04 pm
Charging a lithium battery is serious business with a lot of details, but here is the 30,000 foot view:
When starting to charge, the charger will be in constant current mode. This is called bulk charge mode. In the middle of the charge (40% to 80% of capacity), the voltage on the LiFePo battery will be fairly constant so there is a constant amount of power being fed into the battery.
As the battery gets to about 80% full, the voltage on the battery starts to rise. The charger recognizes the increased voltage and reduces the current. This is called the absorption charging state. While there is lower current and higher voltage, it may seem like the power will be the same, but the current drops faster than the voltage rises. The charge power drops.
When the maximum voltage is reached, the current is stopped. Charging has completed. It can take a VERY long time to get the last 10% into the battery.
All of this is done with a lot of precision. The accuracy required for charging lithium chemistry batteries is 0.75%. Designing equipment that handles 300v and 200 amps with that precision is a significant challenge. From this Engineer to the Engineers at Apetera, that is impressive work.
- This reply was modified 4 days, 1 hour ago by Gary Miller. Reason: messy HTML tags removed