Patience

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Patience

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Patience

  • Patience

  • Francis Giroux

    Member
    June 15, 2022 at 9:03 am

    One thing I have learned by reading the comments in this forum is this, very few of us in this fast paced world of EVs has patience. And some of us are trying to hold Aptera to a higher standard than possible as far as timing goes. Some are saying, so and so promised such and such and it didn’t come true. Nonsense.

    I have followed Aptera for a couple years now and I haven’t seen or heard anyone PROMISE anything, feature or delivery time. Everything has been goals (we hope to deliver, we hope to produce, our goal is to…).

    I have seen some amazing work and accomplishments from Aptera and I have seen some chronic complaining from some of us, especially about steering yoke, battery, heat pump, delivery time, etc.

    If I had any influence with Chris and Steve, I would tell them to stay away from the forums, keep up the good work and ignore anything going on over here. We are a bunch of speculators, opinionated know-nothings, and self centered consumers. Yes Many of us are engineers, but we don’t know what’s going on behind the scenes, but that’s for a reason.

    Speculation is mostly what we get here on the forum, not fact, insight, and secrets. There is too much negativity because of unfulfilled unrealistic expectations and desires.

    I would like to see some encouragement given to the staff instead of discouragement and criticism. Great things are being accomplished here. Name me one place you have seen an installation of solar cells on a compound curved surface. As far as I know it hasn’t been done.

    And I don’t mean spray painting (printing) a liquid onto a compound curved surface (like the 2-3% efficient solar flexible surfaces like the roll up panels in Australia). Getting the solar cells properly mounted on the Aptera with its compound curves is a ground breaking attempt. Pray that they can invent a way to get it done (against the clock). I heard that there are some patents being considered for the new process they have to come up with.

    Slow down your “are we there yet” expectations. Do you want a rushed inferior vehicle, or do you want the ground breaking marvel that Aptera can be.

    When production begins, don’t expect it to start of at 40 units per day. It may take a year to build up to that kind of speed. We certainly don’t want to be disappointed by inferior quality that Tesla saw during their “production hell” ramp up at Fresno. Perfection takes time and perfection at full speed production takes time to learn by mistakes.

    Patience, as your Mom and Dad said when you kept asking on a long trip, “are we there yet?” Encourage this team with praise for what they have accomplished in such a short time, and don’t put the burden of unrealistic expectation on them. Patience. Patience. Pray.

  • Paul Kirchner

    Member
    June 15, 2022 at 9:26 am

    I’m nominating this for post of the year!

  • Jonah Jorgenson

    Member
    June 15, 2022 at 9:34 am

    Thanks! Glad you said all of this.

    I concur with everything said in your post, especially about the many arm chair quarterbacks complaining that things are not as they want them to be with no insight into what is happening at Aptera. For the naysayers, if you don’t like what is happening at Aptera, then go somewhere else to buy something you think is more in line with your preferences if you can find it. It is so easy to criticize when you have no responsibility or accountability and generally no qualifications to speak authoritatively.

    I also agree that Aptera should disregard the forum posts and stick to their plans and schedules. Such remarkable accomplishments to date with shoe string budget and small, young staff. Enthusiastic support and praise is certainly appropriate. They have been exceptionally successful to date with their strategy in the most difficult environment possible. Thee is no evidence or reason to think they will not continue.

    I have a problem with patience, so appreciate the reminder about the right attitude to have. I will refocus to be positive as a result.

  • Thomas Bushaw

    Member
    June 15, 2022 at 9:34 am

    Well said and good advice. I think the rampant speculation is fun and keeps us engaged, entertained, and — to some extent — better educated but, yes, the Aptera team should focus on their treasure-in-the-making (as I am sure they are). I know they do monitor this forum and other social media, but hopefully mostly for its entertainment value. I can imagine them scanning the posts an saying to themselves “If only they knew what we know.” — over and over again.

  • Dennis Swaney

    Member
    June 15, 2022 at 9:38 am

    If it takes at least a year before they can produce 40 units/day that would mean by the end of ’23 about 200/week. IF they can sustain that rate, then annual production would be about 10,000/year. Thus a more realistic delivery period for most of us would be 2024 – 2026 depending on 1) the distance version, and 2) our place in the pre-order queue.

    • Jonah Jorgenson

      Member
      June 15, 2022 at 7:30 pm

      And you know this fact how?

      • Dennis Swaney

        Member
        June 15, 2022 at 7:47 pm

        I based it on Francis’ post above, 9th paragraph, where he says it may take a year to get to the 40 units/day. Figure a 5 day work week and 52 weeks/year it is just math: 40 x 5 x 52 = 10,400. I just rounded down to simplify. Of course if they go to a 7 day work week then it becomes 14,500/year. However you have to factor in holidays, vacations, California’s “Public Safety Power Shutoffs”, etc.

        And since they announced production will start with the 400 mile range models first then add the 250 range model followed by the 600 and then the 1000 mile range models, that becomes a factor.

        • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 6 days ago by  Dennis Swaney.
  • Ray Holan

    Moderator
    June 15, 2022 at 5:39 pm

    Good post, Francis. I’ve been a member of many ICE car and EV forums over the years. I think raising questions and posting reactions (both positive and negative) is part of a healthy dialogue process. Yes, here in the Aptera forum some posts stray into sharp criticism of engineering or stylistic decisions. Personally, I don’t have a problem with that.

    I have to say I don’t agree with the advice that Aptera should just ignore the Forum. Remember, the vast majority of us are reservation-holders and many are investors. Any company can benefit by listening to their customer base. Of course, the company may choose to ignore all or some of what customers are saying. But to ignore it completely doesn’t make good business sense to me.

    Don’t misunderstand. I trust the vision, the engineering, and the Aptera management. But I also welcome people on the forum playing devil’s advocate too. Remember, there were lots of smart people at GM when they produced the Vega. Design is an iterative process and it’s based in part on posing questions like “would it be better if?” Although forum members are not paid to be designers and engineers, I stand by my own and others right to raise questions. We don’t have to be “yes men” to be fans and supporters of Aptera. I think respectfully presented questions and criticism should be welcomed here. Posts that smack of an arrogant “I’m right and everyone at Aptera is wrong” attitude may well crop up from time to time. But they won’t get traction.

    Ok. End of rant for the evening. Again, your post was well thought out and presented, Francis. Thanks.

    • Scott Price

      Member
      June 15, 2022 at 6:51 pm

      Fully agreed, Ray. And I appreciate much of your perspective, too, Francis.

      The Aptera is an amazing vehicle, though it is not perfect. I question the soundness of only three of the company’s design decisions so far. Valid, well reasoned alternative recommendations are both relevant and potentially valuable to a company who actually wants to sell their product beyond just an initial limited set of techy early adopters. Forums such as this are one of the closest things Aptera can get to free “focus groups” and customer (reservation holder) feedback, plus some of us also come from the perspective of Aptera investors wanting the company and its products to be successful sellers (not always just data-optimized science experiments). Our collective inputs a year+ ago may have been more valuable than today because the chances of making substantive changes to the initial production version are fast closing, if not already in the rearview mirror. Nonetheless, alternative ideas are still valuable for future iterations and improvements beyond the v1 model. Vehicle models are continually evolving and improving at every car company in the world, and that will presumably include Aptera, too.

      If anyone here is opposed to openly and freely discuss ideas or alternative viewpoints, then perhaps they should just wait for new Aptera marketing videos and not spend time on a DISCUSSION forum. 🙂 This is a discussion forum. Nothing more, nothing less.

    • Jonah Jorgenson

      Member
      June 15, 2022 at 7:27 pm

      I think it is important that Aptera stick to their concept/design, plan, and schedule, and the way they conserve their budget. In the predecessor, Aptera management (Not our current CEOs) succumbed to an influence to change the concept. The founders left and the company shut down.

      I think that the Co-CEOs learned their lesson and this time will implement their concept. Some won’t like it that is fine. Most will as evidenced by the rapidly growing reservation list. Those that don’t like some aspect of the design are free to make any comments they wish, ask for their reservation to be refunded, and buy another EV if they can find one that fits their criteria better. There will be plenty on the market in the next few years.

      Aptera is a company and as such has the right to set their own policies and stay their own course. It is not a democracy by potential owners or small investors. That means they can and should, make the decisions they feel are in the best interest of the company. They have a remarkable record to date with their design and engineering. Based on what they release, and what I see in the videos I am confident that they will release a vehicle into the market that will be successful economically and aesthetically.

      If those that complain about a particular design decision or failure to incorporate their pet feature understood engineering and product development, they would know there is no time, money, or resources left for the changes they continually want to see as a vocal minority

      I am a young engineer early in my career. I have a LOT yet to learn through experience and some schooling. Many on this Forum have a chance to learn about the process Aptera and all engineering companies follow. But rather than listen and learn they express unsubstantiated opinions and speculation.

      As for the concept of a company “Should listen to their customers” The most successful EV company in the world didn’t do that. They did what Elon told them to do. They are now the most successful EV company in the world. Go figure!

      So I am doubling down on the post by Francis.

  • Alain Chuzel

    Member
    June 15, 2022 at 5:41 pm

    (My apologies of the following is repeating! Something strange is happening (deleting(?) when I try to edit and I have tried numerous times to get it posted)

    Francis Girous said (between quotes):

    “Name me one place you have seen an installation of solar cells on a compound curved surface. As far as I know it hasn’t been done.

    And I don’t mean spray painting (printing) a liquid onto a compound curved surface (like the 2-3% efficient solar flexible surfaces like the roll up panels in Australia). Getting the solar cells properly mounted on the Aptera with its compound curves is a ground breaking attempt. Pray that they can invent a way to get it done (against the clock). I heard that there are some patents being considered for the new process they have to come up with.”

    I am so frustrated that this myth just wont die. We, in the solar racing “industry” have been making compound curved solar arrays, using any number of cell types, since the late 80’s. The pic below is one of my favorites. It happens to have triple junction GaAs cells but similar arrays have been done with both cut and un-cut SunPower/Maxeon cells.

    Regarding patents, one of the “utility” patents Aptera has applied for is being rejected, in part, because of one of my competitors having shown/patented compound curved arrays.

    • Francis Giroux

      Member
      June 15, 2022 at 6:34 pm

      Alain, thanks for the reminder of all the solar races and teams that have advanced the “industry” with their competitions. I have been following them for many years but not closely. I wish that these events were around when I was in college. You may be right that compound curved (barely) surfaces have been covered by solar cells (small ones) in many rows. I guess I should have qualified my statement more exactly, specifying big cells and rather tight curves, and made to last 20 years of traffic and pedestrian abuse. A race car for one event doesn’t have to be so robust, and using small cells or pieces make it easy to contend with the compound curves, but a volume manufacturer doesn’t have the thousands of hours a student team puts in for one vehicle. The teams and their contributions are very appreciated but I am talking about ground breaking work to apply what they have developed to mass production of durable machines that will last for decades. Maybe you should reach out to Aptera as a consultant, free at first until they know how valuable you are.

      • Alain Chuzel

        Member
        June 15, 2022 at 7:35 pm

        Somehow I knew you would reply to my comment with, essentially, but, but, but….

        To be continued.

      • Alain Chuzel

        Member
        June 16, 2022 at 8:13 am

        Francis: “You may be right that compound curved (barely) surfaces have been covered by solar cells (small ones) in many rows.”

        My response: “Barely”. Really? You think the vehicle shown above “barely” incorporates compound curvature? Also, “Small Ones”. Really? Maybe you missed what I said. “It happens to have triple junction GaAs cells (small ones) but similar arrays have been done with both cut and un-cut SunPower/Maxeon cells (same size as Aptera).”

        Francis: “….and made to last 20 years of traffic and pedestrian abuse.”

        My response: You’re counting Aptera’s chickens before they hatch aren’t you? Regardless, the minimal encapsulation used for the solar array on the vehicle above were certainly not designed for 20 year life and whatever “pedestrian abuse” means but it’s also relatively easily added to in order to accommodate those requirements. Also, they can and do “last” for considerably more than “1 event”. In fact, check out what the same school (Bochum) did with another one of their cars. https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/longest-journey-by-solar-electric-vehicle

        Francis: “….but a volume manufacturer doesn’t have the thousands of hours a student team puts in for one vehicle.”

        My response: What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? The solar panels shown were built by a pro and while, more or less, built by hand, there’s no reason to think full automation can’t be accomodated.

        Francis: “Maybe you should reach out to Aptera as a consultant, free at first until they know how valuable you are.”

        My response: I have but free is not an option…..

        By the way, why is everyone forgetting about LightYear’s compound curved (double glass) solar array and the Sono Sion? LightYear’s, in particular, is an amazingly well engineered solar product and LighYear was founded, and is currently run by, racing solar car project graduates.

        In closing, and I’m sorry to say, with at least the solar, you have
        exhibited the exact “tunnel vision” and/or “jumping to conclusions” and/or “sticking of heads in sand” that
        I fear some Engineers and leadership at Aptera has.

    • Dennis Swaney

      Member
      June 15, 2022 at 7:50 pm

      That looks like a proto-Aptera!

  • David Marlow

    Member
    June 15, 2022 at 6:44 pm

    Patience, I’m usually more patient than most, Chris & Steve have more, but even they took a few years break, then started again on their dream.

    I have only been waiting for about 1 &1/2 years and know that know I may have another year to wait, so every update we get is helpful and reassuring. But I still want it sooner than that! So I am learning to have more patience.

  • Kevin Bradbury

    Member
    June 15, 2022 at 5:03 pm

    My goodness that body shape sure is familiar. Where have I seen that? 🤔 But I guess when finding the most aerodynamic shape possible, some results will be very similar.😀

  • Alain Chuzel

    Member
    June 15, 2022 at 5:16 pm

    If you’re interested, take a look at some of the cars built by Solar Team Twente. Some of them were vaguely similar. I’ve had the pleasure of building panels/modules (with both crystalline silicon and triple junction GaAs) for 4 of their cars. Here’s a direct link to the relevant page at their website.

    https://www.solarteam.nl/cars/https://www.solarteam.nl/cars/

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 6 days ago by  Alain Chuzel.
  • Kevin Bradbury

    Member
    June 15, 2022 at 5:23 pm

    Very cool. Thanks

  • Alain Chuzel

    Member
    June 16, 2022 at 5:20 am

    Apologies for not fixing the link. It’s https://www.solarteam.nl/cars/

  • Jonah Jorgenson

    Member
    June 16, 2022 at 9:52 am

    This kind of practical R&D is what paves the way for commercialization and pushes the envelope for advancement. Smart organizations track and leverage these things to get an leg up on their competitors that don’t or right it off as not useful.

    You and your colleagues have valuable experience that will be more and more demand as all industry migrates to improved solar.

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