Petition – Tesla Superchargers StandardPosted by Quincy on July 12, 2022 at 6:14 pm
While electric vehicle technology has rapidly advanced, the charging standard in the U.S. has not. CCS and SAE J1772, the US’s common standards, are clunky, cumbersome, and expensive.
At Aptera, we believe the U.S. government should adopt Tesla’s Supercharger Technology as the standard for ALL EV charging in the U.S.
With the best charging experience for drivers and less expensive installation costs, our country could begin expanding our charging infrastructure at a much-reduced cost, saving $4 billion dollars on projected infrastructure spending through 2027.
Read more about why we think Tesla’s charging standards are good for EVs and the U.S. and sign our petition if you agree here → https://bit.ly/3PgrC16
- This discussion was modified 10 months, 3 weeks ago by bbelcamino.
MemberJuly 12, 2022 at 7:29 pm
Signed, completely agree tesla connector is superior.
MemberJuly 12, 2022 at 8:13 pm
Signed, and thanks for being bold on this.
I recommend that you prepare some well structured talking points regarding how this recommendation will sync (or not) with international standards. Making the US an island in a world of other standard(s) is a consideration. It could become analogous to the US not using the metric system while almost all other countries (except Myanmar and Liberia) do. Just food for thought since it will be a concern that you will need to proactively address to help this proposal gain more traction. Perhaps adapters are the solution, but nonetheless a clearly articulated plan around this aspect should be part of the proposal.
MemberJuly 12, 2022 at 8:52 pm
The Ioniq 5/EV6/GV60 trio currently charge at a higher max rate than the Tesla plug will allow. So does the Taycan, Hummer, Lucid, and in fact most of the industry will be on 800v by 2025. Meanwhile the Tesla plug can’t do 800v without a new physical design featuring DC pins spaced further apart.
In other words, standardizing on the Tesla plug will cause the industry to regress and then remain held back. Awesome right?
There’s zero chance of this happening, the money’s already been handed to the states for CCS, the ship has sailed. Stop wasting your time advocating for this.
MemberJuly 12, 2022 at 10:25 pm
Signed & shared.
MemberJuly 12, 2022 at 10:43 pm
As far as I know, the Tesla ‘plug’ is patented by Tesla and while they will allow others to use it, they have very strange and strict requirements on the usage. Are they willing to forego their claim to the plug? If not, then why would we want it as a standard?
As an investor in Aptera, I would not want to give up the rights to enforce Aptera’s patents just to use a slightly more convenient plug.
MemberJuly 12, 2022 at 10:56 pm
Unfortunately despite tesla plugs being a better standard (except for extremely high power trucks) the industry and government have chosen Ccs1 in North America; in Canada it is already about 1 to 1 in terms of stalls. Beta was also superior to vhs. The writing is on the wall; hopefully Aptera will either switch to ccs (especially ccs2 for europe) or work out a very good deal with tesla for tesla equivalent supercharger network access/price. Compatibility with the tesla to ccs adapter would also be important long term. Ccs is not the best connector but it is “good enough”; changing the industry (outside tesla) and the relatively hostile government’s minds isn’t realistic.
MemberJuly 12, 2022 at 11:41 pm
I don’t think this is the best option. Even if the physical connector is free to use and superior in terms of UX, depending on Tesla for firmware and Supercharger access is an abrupt departure from Aptera’s past right-to-repair stance and will be a handicap in the long run – the reality is that CCS is already the standard in North America.
Aptera has a niche market of engineers, enthusiasts, and nerds – people who like to tinker and who are looking far ahead to a better future. I worry that choosing a port with short term charger network and marketing advantages will risk alienating part of that group.
MemberSeptember 7, 2022 at 6:48 am
I agree, I believe Tesla will be an important but very short blip in history as the legacy vehicle manufacturers catch up and zoom past them, while maintaining respectful and tangible customer service.
MemberJuly 13, 2022 at 12:10 am
Sure, there’s plenty to like about Tesla’s connector and DC charging network, but this is silly. Honestly Idk wtf Aptera is trying to doing here. But some possibilities that come to mind:
1. They’re delusional and actually think the US gov’t would/could actually force a switch from CCS to Tesla connectors. (Unlikely)
2. This is some weird strategy to try to butter up Elon by publicly lavishly praising the Tesla connector in hopes he’ll allow Apteras to use the existing* Supercharger network chargers. (Long shot)
3. This is just hand-waving to get some social media attention. (Most likely)
4. This sideshow helps give them an excuse for not having figured out something as basic as what charge port they’re going to use when they’re only 6 months away from when they’re supposed to start deliveries. (Possibly)
5. They’re so concerned that Aptera reservation holders will be disappointed by a CCS port is instead of a Tesla port (as shown on the marketing vehicles) that they felt they needed to do this to be able to say “Well, we tried our best to make a Tesla port work, but the dang guvmint refused to listen to our petition and help make that possible!”
(*As opposed to the hypothetical future Superchargers that will have CCS connectors/adapters and be open to non-Teslas and will be widely installed by god-knows-when.)
MemberJuly 13, 2022 at 12:33 am
Side note: did the image on the Change.org petition comparing sizes of the CCS, J1772, and Tesla connectors really have to be made so wildly inaccurate to make the Tesla connector look way smaller than it actually is?
The J1772 and CCS connectors are both shown ~40% bigger comparatively than they actually are in real life
Dishonesty is not a good look for any company.
MemberSeptember 7, 2022 at 6:56 am
After measuring the physical connectors, then the connectors on the screen, the Tesla picture is indeed 22% smaller than actual, but not 40%. Good catch.
MemberJuly 13, 2022 at 3:36 am
Done. I like the Tesla plug. It’s small and works just fine from the house. We’ll get plenty of charge from home to fit the majority of users.
MemberJuly 13, 2022 at 6:45 am
NO, I will not sign. Aptera needs to get on board with the rest of the US auto market and the European market and use J1772 type 1/2 and CCS type 1/2.
Any reduction of proprietary items is best. I don’t want to be beholden to a company or use an adapter. There are myriad reasons why Tesla is adding CCS to their chargers. A major one is that CCS can deliver more energy to a vehicle that can accept it (looking at Cybertruck) and can also server a wider range of vehicles (thus a wider market for revenue)
Video from TechnologyConnections about DCFC https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZOuz_laH9I
MemberJuly 13, 2022 at 7:51 am
I signed but I don’t like the idea of government mandates, the market should figure these thing out.
Has Aptera made a deal with Tesla to use their plug? Congress can’t fix this for them, if they want to use Tesla’s connector then they have to negotiate with Tesla and get a license for the connector and a deal to use the Supercharger network.
MemberJuly 13, 2022 at 9:38 am
Tesla plug in my car: Yes.
Tesla plug as the US standard: I think it would be a mistake.
MemberJuly 13, 2022 at 1:56 pm
No thanks. the world needs one standard to simplify our sustainable energy transition. This would only further complicate it, and probably even hinder it.
MemberJuly 13, 2022 at 3:46 pm
Practically speaking, if every one of the 2x,xxx reservation holders signed this document it would make zero difference as the total population of Aptera Enthusiasts is a drop in the bucket and has no lobbying power.
In principle, I am supportive of common standards, which in this case, means supporting CCS1 for Apterae. The minor inconvenience of the CCS1 plug vs. the Aptera plug is so far down in the nits it would be hard to see it with an electron microscope. I, like Chris, and others on the forum, drive a Tesla and use the Tesla plug. No particular loyalty to an EV plug. Many more important things to apply my worrying cycles to.
I will charge my Aptera at work if it needs it. Most likely won’t with the full solar package out in the FL sun and a far less then a 40 mi round trip commute. When I travel I will charge where ever there is a compatible charger/plug when needed.
MemberJuly 14, 2022 at 8:37 am
I am completely clueless about the electrical engineering that goes into charging, charge ports etc. However, I have been reading articles regarding the general state of charging stations across the U.S. and the news is not good. These companies such as EA and Charge port are building a lot of charging stations but they are not reliable and are very cumbersome to connect to the software required to get them to work. They estimate that only 60% to 70% of these chargers work, and there is no infrastructure in place to keep them running. Tesla’s chargers on the other hand are more reliable and they have the infrastructure to keep them running. This may be the reason that Aptera is wanting to use Tesla’s charge port design. They may be looking more at the near future rather than the distant future. The only time that I would need to use a DC fast charger is if I am going on a long trip. Right now I would rather be driving a Tesla across the country than any other brand based on the number of working fast chargers. So, if Aptera can use Tesla’s charging port design and have access to Tesla’s superchargers it is a win/ win situation. It should also be noted that Tesla vehicles can use any other charging network in the country that uses a CCS charging port, which is most of them. This gives you as many options as possible to charge your vehicle.
MemberJuly 14, 2022 at 12:44 pm
And that’s why this petition exists. Nobody can touch the Supercharger network for reliability and placement. I love my Bolt, but I don’t think I’d take family on a road trip in it just because of low charger reliability.
MemberJuly 14, 2022 at 9:41 am
Great I signed the petition and now I’m getting spammed by change.org with emails saying. Chris Anthony still needs me and I get more petitions to sign that I totally don’t agree with.
MemberJuly 14, 2022 at 2:07 pm
Just unsubscribe and it will stop within maximum a day they say. It stopped immediately in my case.
MemberJuly 14, 2022 at 1:24 pm
Hey, one more gotcha… uhh will a Supercharger cable even reach the license plate area?
Go look at some pictures of Supercharger cables. Notice anything? They’re short. They’re really short actually. One of the little advantages of the Tesla walled garden is that every Tesla has the port in kinda the same location. Superchargers run really high amperages on their cables and one of their optimizations is keeping that cable as short as possible by controlling how far that cable has to go. This is because longer it goes the thicker it has to be lest it heat up and catch fire. They’re of course already liquid cooled.
For instances where the interface is behind the vehicle it might be fine, though that’s not a given since the cable mounting is offset to the driver’s side. But many Supercharger stations have the interface on the side and that’s likely a deal-killer. For those cases the cable is going to have to stretch out to the middle of the car and then still have enough slack to turn 90 degrees without kinking and restricting coolant flow. Maybe the Aptera will have to be partially hanging out of the stall, but it might still not reach at all.
Aptera can’t put the port on the side behind the driver’s door because that’s entirely incompatible with the rear interface Superchargers while the side ones would be almost as iffy versus the tail port. Realistically Aptera would have to put the port in the same rear quarter panel location that Tesla uses to make this work all the time, but that’s quite impossible unless they abandon the fundamental design of the vehicle.
An argument presented against CCS is that the cables are thicker. Sure, that’s true, but they have to be since they’re going further than Tesla has to. If there was some kind of mandate or standard that required the port be always in the same place then this wouldn’t be an issue, but for many vehicles that’s not ideal, and for some it’s quite impossible. The Aptera should be the poster child for the instance where it’s impossible.
Perhaps we can just tote along some extender thing. It can’t be liquid cooled like the rest of the charger cable so remarkable thickness it is. Safely supplying 50kW at 400v works out to 125A. The ampacity chart for just 6 feet requires a 1/0 gauge cable which is a third of an inch in diameter. That’s then times two plus the control wires, ground, and insulation and cladding, yeah that’s an inch thick. If you don’t believe me then look at the Chademo adapter, but imagine that’s 6 feet long. Personally I think this adaptation and not worth the trade-off for a slim and aesthetically pleasing connector but I’m sure there are those who would argue otherwise.
In any case something’s gotta give and it surely won’t be Tesla making all their cables longer and thicker just to accommodate Aptera.
MemberJuly 14, 2022 at 2:19 pm
Great point. I see no practical location on the drivers side given the tail light and taper. Perhaps the tale light doesn’t need to wrap around quite soo far and it could be infront of it. The location beyond the driver door with the charge indicator would seem to also be too far for some superchargers. The only other option I see (without parking at stupid angles) would be to drive into the stall straight and put the port it Infront of the passenger door near the headlight bar (essentially the exact opposite of Tesla).
MemberJuly 14, 2022 at 4:54 pm
Unless the Aptera’s Tesla connector supports vehicle-to-grid (V2G) or vehicle-to-load (V2L), I do not support the adoption of a Tesla connector.
I have a Tesla Model 3, but have preordered a 100 kWh Aptera to replace the Model 3 with the aim of using the Aptera battery as a Powerwall-on-wheels for powering my home during a power outage. The ~US$50K price tag of a fully loaded Aptera is cheaper than installing the equivalent number of Tesla Powerwalls or other home battery backup solution.
- This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by Michael Johnson. Reason: Spotted a grammar mistake
MemberJuly 14, 2022 at 5:19 pm
While I agree the Tesla plug is superior to J1772 I don’t think it’s a great plug. Here in Australia J1772 died out, mainly due to its inability to to do 32A 3 phase 11kw charging. This is a sweet spot in cost and usability in 220-240v locations, and something Aptera should aim for in non US markets. In practice it is often 1/4 the speed of 50-75kw DC due to thermal constraints. Portable AC chargers that connect to a standard 3 phase plug are readily available. Especially useful in many places where industrial plugs are far more common than car chargers.
The onboard chargers are only 12kg or so and would be well worth the small extra weight even if only available as an option.
Tesla’s variant of the type 2 plug, with the ability to do mid DC via the L1 N plugs would also be ideal for Aptera outside America. DC Chargers for these are uncommon, it’s usually CCS2, but you would maintain standard type 2 experience most of the time, and need to use an adapter for CCS2. I expect DC charging to be rare, especially if you can do 11kw AC which are far more common and less congested, so the need for a small Tesla style type 2 to CCS2 would not be much of an imposition.
I don’t see a way to get >500V and >350kw with a Tesla plug, and while Aptera will be OK with that, Ford, Rivian, Porche, Mercedes, VW etc will not want that limitation.
MemberJuly 14, 2022 at 6:37 pm
Early reservation holder, investor, fan…. not signing this petition. Aptera, use your energy, time, and resources to get your product to market using current standards. This is not a trail for you to blaze… or worth it in my mind.
MemberJuly 14, 2022 at 10:23 pm
Yes and Tesla is puttind the ccs plugs on their charging stations a well. This gives the tax payer money and also is a precursor to Tesla phasing out its current plug using the government money.
MemberJuly 15, 2022 at 10:14 am
Shouldn’t this petition be broadened to include Canada by contacting Transport Canada? I have signed.
MemberJuly 15, 2022 at 11:25 am
Canadians should look at the difference in locations between the networks in Canada before signing. CCS is the only DCFC option for many northern and maritime locations and has about 8x the number of locations in Canada (comparable number of stalls). In the US CCS locations outnumber Tesla about 3x (but are way behind on total stalls). If we get a tesla port I hope its in the back left so the supercharger cable can reach without parking at an angle and CCS1 adapters will be available.
Note: The tesla port cannot be adapted to accept 3 phase power (Type 2 plug) which will limit its AC charging options in places like Australia. EU also mandates CCS2 (which while physically different from CCS1 can be easily adapted for DCFC)
MemberJuly 15, 2022 at 4:46 pm
Tesla does the CCS2 plug and your argument of it being clunky it is unfounded.
Tesla charger with dual plugs https://youtu.be/H1OQQYO3G34?t=58
Tesla with CCS2 port Model-3-CCS-charging-port.jpg (683×455) (cloudinary.com)
Tesla in China market with J1772 Type 2 equivalent and GB/T DC ports tesla-model-3-china-charging-port.jpg (1049×872) (greentransportation.info)