Plug & Charge (ISO 15118)?

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Plug & Charge (ISO 15118)?

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Plug & Charge (ISO 15118)?

  • Plug & Charge (ISO 15118)?

     John Malcom updated 2 months, 1 week ago 5 Members · 11 Posts
  • Ken Kobayashi

    April 19, 2022 at 8:32 am

    Has there been any info on whether the Aptera will support ISO 15118 Plug&Charge?

  • John Malcom

    April 19, 2022 at 9:09 am

    Aptera has announced that they will support CCS with a 1772 plug for charging. Other plugs/protocols may be under consideration for charging. However, the ISO 15118 – Road Vehicles Grid Communication Package, is not one of them as there is no current, Off the Shelf (COTS) implementation available.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  John Malcom. Reason: removed format markings
  • kerbe2705

    April 19, 2022 at 10:56 am

    As the ISO 15118 protocol is primarily a question of software implementation there should be no reason for Aptera to NOT include it in the production vehicle. The only issue is that – at present – there aren’t many DCFC units that include it!

    • Tim Dean

      April 19, 2022 at 12:14 pm

      Yes, Aptera may be forced to use the J1772 Level 2 however they would like to use Tesla plug (still level 2) in the vehicle because it is the most elegant solution. Licensing, Cost and Tesla charger access is still TBD. The J1772 to Tesla plug is inexpensive and widely available.

      Level 2 is super fast charging in a vehicle that only uses 100 watts per mile.

    • John Malcom

      April 19, 2022 at 4:10 pm

      Wow. I have rewritten this response three times now. The first response was a knee jerk response, why would we do that?? Inappropriate. So after calling some people I work with and doing some research this is my current thinking.

      These EVs have implementations of the plug and charge ISO Standard. The model year 2021 Porsche Taycan, Lucid Air, Ford Mustang Mach-E, and the Rivian R1T. Some of each of these implementations are proprietary. The purposes of the standard is to identify your vehicle to a charging network to make it easier to charge and pay for the charge. It is not an easy solution to the V2G some people want. As some have posted in different threads on the forum, building that functionality requires SW development and some additional hardware. Others on the forum have discussed how difficult that task is and the need for HW and SW for a solution.

      A from scratch SW implementation, not certified, (There will be some HW needed as well) of an ISO standard is no simple task, especially if the effort has not been included in a SW plan and schedule from the start. No ISO standard has been included in any Aptera SW plan. When you build SW to an ISO standard it has to be certified compliant. A process with a standards body, time and data intensive.

      There is no compelling case for this application for Aptera. The current software resources should be committed to core functionality development and defect remediation as a priority and if some effort remains unallocated, then implementation of functionality planned for but of a lower priority. The key here is planned as already in the plan.

      Tesla has their own proprietary implementation of the standard to be used with their super chargers. Rumors abound that we may be able to use the Tesla network and plugs. If the rumors prove to be true, no need for Aptera to build functionality to the standard.

      If the Aptera engineers have passed on implementing the ISO standard, I believe they have good reasons to do so.

      • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  John Malcom. Reason: reworked the response
      • kerbe2705

        April 19, 2022 at 8:44 pm

        When I asked about this during an Ambassador webinar I was told that, yes, including the ISO 15118 protocol was being considered because it would bring Tesla-like simplicity to non-Tesla DCFC.

        Anyone who’s made a road trip in a non-Tesla knows the difficulty of maintaining multiple cards, accounts, apps, etc. – especially when a DC EVSE has no (or a non-functional) credit card reader.

        Tesla has stated – and has put into practice at its test locations – that non-Teslas using Superchargers do NOT have “plug & charge” simplicity: An phone app is required.

        Aptera has an entire team of in-house software engineers working on the vehicle’s OS – and have farmed-out various aspects of its functionality to other firms. The addition of charging protocol is just lines of code in the already extant “charging handshake”: The only hardware required is onboard secure storage (a memory chip) to hold the driver’s payment data, something that most modern EVs already have. This is not an insurmountable challenge.

        • John Malcom

          April 19, 2022 at 11:23 pm

          I drive A Tesla and use super chargers so have no experience with non Tesla charging.

          I stand by my statement that if the function was/is in the software plan then it should be worked in its established priority. If it was not in the plan, it should not be added.

          My experience with software development would say there is rarely sufficient resources to execute the plan.

          If it is/was in the plan and a high enough Priority then we will have it

          • kerbe2705

            April 20, 2022 at 7:02 pm

            It’s a way of “future-proofing” the vehicle: More and more charging networks are adopting the protocol as they replace their first gen DCFC units with newer, more powerful models.

            Although charging isn’t such a necessity when I travel in my PHEV – as it accepts only L1 and L2 AC charging – I still have four RFID cards and six apps on my phone so that I can use the EVSEs I’m most likely to encounter on my regular routes. Not ONE of multiple charging networks has credit card readers, so that isn’t an option.

            • John Malcom

              April 21, 2022 at 9:15 am

              I would not look forward to that set of circumstance for charging away from home so glad I can use super charger at this point. Probably spoiled with the charge planning app as well.

        • George Hughes

          April 21, 2022 at 10:21 am

          This is pure speculation on my part but I think that Aptera is waiting for a company like Duke Power, The Southern Company, the TVA, or some other large power producing utility to grasp that the 1000 mile Aptera is a gimmick that the utilities could capitalize upon realizing that in only very rare circumstances will a vehicle user drive more than 50-100 miles a day meaning the majority of the 100kw battery storage could be made available for grid backup under contract with the owner of the vehicle.

          In essence, the vehicle owner (or more probably lessee) would have full access to the 100 kw 1000 mile battery whenever s/he needed it. But since the utility, which in this rendition includes them actually setting up an Aptera production facility making exclusively Aptera with 1000 mi. batteries and some of that hardware, software proprietary software that makes the big battery beast do its grid power backup thing. So, the utilities Aptera assembly plant pumps out 10,000 Aptera each year for local lease (at very attractive pricing) giving the utility a new income stream that literally serves its customers with transportation but also adds .8 gigawatts to their grid backup capacity year over year with their customers paying most of the tab through their leases or purchases.

          The problem, of course, is connectivity to the grid. That could be solved by marketing as say, even a private company could begin using it s employees vehicles to power their daytime operations (when power rates are higher) from the placement of an interactive smart grid in their parking lots (the power comes from the cars to the factory, the cars have enough reserve ~ 150 miles to return home for an off-peak rates overnight. Sixty-kilowatts used in a day from each of 1000 cars would be 60 Megawatts, which would certainly make a dent in a company’s power bill. Delivering that power at peak times would be profitable to the company if it could buy the power from their workers’ EVs at $6.00 a day or less (60kw@$0.10/kwh; currently my overnight rate is $0.04/kwh).

          Alternately, I wonder if a parking deck, if converted to serve these special 1000mi Aptera, would be able to cut the daily parking rates for participants while potentially providing enough power for several buildings just from the backup. (Bldg mgmt chooses cheapest rate.)

          Whether or not one of these ‘opportunities’ comes to fruition. the sustainable future and Aptera’s place in it is monumental.

          • John Malcom

            April 21, 2022 at 11:30 am

            Very innovative, futuristic, thinking. You are good at outlining these business models. Utility management is very conservative, at least in FL. The Australians are setting up some trials of a similar approach. The Smart Electric Power Alliance (SEPA) is sending reps to Australia in June to assess what they are doing. Perhaps your idea or something similar can get started here

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