Range at Highway/Interstate Speeds?

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Range at Highway/Interstate Speeds?

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Range at Highway/Interstate Speeds?

  • Range at Highway/Interstate Speeds?

     Curtis Cibinel updated 1 month ago 16 Members · 30 Posts
  • DON RASKY

    Member
    November 22, 2021 at 6:31 pm

    I would like to know what the range reduction might be for an Aptera at 500 lbs rated capacity at highway speeds of 60 to 80 mph on relatively level to mountainous roads. While traffic jams slow things down during a commute, long stretches at 70 to 80 mph are routine where I live. Country roads in my region are below 60 mph but can require climbing several thousand feet in elevation. Not sure really whether to order a 400 or 600 mile range Aptera with front or all wheel drive. I am also recalling that any smallish vehicles moving in the 55 to 60 mph range do not fare well on the interstate, even in the slow lane. I’m thinking all wheel drive and the ability to zip away from the usual rude dump trucks and semis in the slow lanes might be a much needed advantage even if it costs me range.

  • Curtis Cibinel

    Member
    November 22, 2021 at 6:48 pm

    Range definitely drops with speed but since the vehicle is light and very aerodynamic it isnt as bad as most. From these physics calculations the Aptera basically achieves similar functional range at all speeds with the base model to the model 3 using a battery of less than half the size.

    Unlike range with stop city driving the calculation is very much basic physics calculations. The exact usable battery size, frontal area, weight and rolling drag are estimates but these numbers should give a general idea of how speed impacts range. I also included calculations for the model 3 and base 250 mile Aptera so you can see the the general idea. Based on these calculations the base Aptera and model 3 should have nearly identical degredation (note: exact usable battery might be off by 5-10% – this is about trending with speed not absolute values).

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Tuu7avKH2dS_JPk7aiP2av09a1f1WE0OvvNH6fdHpiQ/edit#gid=0

    • DON RASKY

      Member
      November 23, 2021 at 11:49 am

      <<<THANKS>>> This is wonderful information. It pretty much makes the 400 mile, all wheel drive, Aptera a lock for me as a commuter vehicle and a regional driver. Being able to work from home since CV19, I take my Colorado diesel out on weekends to maintain the proper health of the engine and transmission and for when I manage to squeeze in a cross country drive to Wisconsin. I really want to stop commuting with my 30 mpg diesel with fuel costs approaching $5.00/gallon regionally and close to $5.00/gal all the way out to Arizona. I figure that if I downsize to the Aptera, acceleration and agility will be critical should I need to commute regionally after CV19. The last time fuel costs went to and above $5.00 where I live, no body slowed down it seemed. I had to slow down to get max fuel economy but there were a lot of aggressive drivers that were not so nice to my little Jetta diesel in the slow lane when I was driving 55 to 62 mph. I figure the all wheel Aptera could be just the little “zoom zoom” to get out of the way of the occasional rude semi, dump truck, or other large vehicle bearing down on me and the Aptera. With the Aptera, I might even be able to safely draft a few car lengths back of the slowest semi I can find and stay just in sight of his mirrors all the way to my destination. Again, many thanks for the numbers!

      • Curtis Cibinel

        Member
        November 23, 2021 at 2:01 pm

        I’m in a similar boat. Working from home during covid. I also picked the 400 mile AWD (probably with offroad). The vehicle will be for around town or up into the mountains for hikes, skiing etc. Definitely should be fun to drive and more economical as gas keeps rising. I see it as midlife crisis sports car rather than a long commuter. 400 miles lets you baby the battery and absorb efficiency losses in winter far easier than with a base range.

      • GLENN ZAJIC

        Member
        November 26, 2021 at 12:27 am

        I do not think the Aptera will be good at drafting due to the efficient aerodynamics. You may reduce the head wind but there is no surface to ‘pull’ you. I could be wrong about that- it will be interesting to find out!

        • DON RASKY

          Member
          November 26, 2021 at 6:48 pm

          Thanks. Interesting point on drafting. That may have been a poor choice of word on my part. My old cross country method for making time used to be to let two or three semis go by and to follow the third one at a safe distance, not enough room for someone to want to slide in in front of you but not so close that you have a risk of collision. When wanting to go slow to stretch my range, following semis in the slow lane has always worked well for me in liquid fueled cars. Hoping it will work with the Aptera.

        • Michael Turner

          Member
          December 6, 2021 at 5:43 pm

          Drafting provides very little benefit to an ultra low drag vehicle. When driving my 0.16 Cd Aerocivic, I saw very little to no mpg improvement while drafting behind a semi.

    • Steve Lee

      Member
      November 28, 2021 at 8:37 pm

      Curtis,

      Could I use your google spreadsheet in a youtube video? How would you like me to credit you?

      • Curtis Cibinel

        Member
        November 28, 2021 at 9:29 pm

        Go nuts obviously you know my name. Please link it in description. Please note some details like frontal area and weight may not be accurate (likely +- 10%)

    • G N

      Member
      December 5, 2021 at 12:29 pm

      Nice calculations!

      I did want to comment that I think I recall they admitted in a recent video that the weight has crept up to 1800 lbs.

  • This content has been hidden as the member is suspended.
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  • BigSky Country

    Member
    November 27, 2021 at 9:22 pm

    Curtis,

    Thanks for the data! Very helpful. I went with the 60 KWh battery and FWD (may switch to AWD if I understand the range tradeoff). My thinking here was twofold. First, this may be the EV that I can truly travel long distance without sitting around waiting for charging. Second, I was thinking that I’d much rather manage the battery in the 20-80% range so I’m thinking 600 miles is really 480 at 80% and leaving me room for degradation. Is that crazy?

    • kerbe2705

      Member
      November 27, 2021 at 10:28 pm

      You should also consider the range reduction caused by cold or inclement weather. Aptera has estimated that AWD will reduce range by about 10% – so 600 miles would be 540 with 80% at 432. If the winter reduction is 20%, you’re at 345 – if it’s 30%, you’re at 302.

      The closest DC charging station in the direction I’m most likely to travel is 297 miles from my home – so you can see why I selected the 600 mile Aptera. Crazy? Crazy like a FOX!

      • Curtis Cibinel

        Member
        November 28, 2021 at 9:35 pm

        My needs are usable 140km round trip to the ski hill. With all the losses with awd, offroad, heating, climbing a mountain, and being nice to the battery (20-80) I went with 400 mile (about 640km). I might be too conservative about the losses.

        • BigSky Country

          Member
          December 3, 2021 at 10:07 am

          Helpful background, thanks everyone. I doesn’t make sense to me to cut down on the battery size for $5k given all the losses I’d expect over time. While the 1,000 mile headline is appealing and it would be great to have if I thought V2H/G was a viable option, I decided against it for a couple of reasons:

          1) I’m not driving 1,000 miles in a day or anywhere near that on long distance trips. My goal on long distance is to plan my trip and charge over night at stops. 600 miles is sufficient for that goal which I would need rarely. My only goal is to avoid sitting around waiting for charging (not a fan of 30-60 min DC charging while traveling).

          2) I’m looking at the space solve they need to do in order to make the 100 kWh battery work and I’m a little skeptical. There’s a reason why this is the last cars they will make and I think there will be tradeoff modifications that I don’t want to get into.

          3) I think this is an inefficient use of battery capacity and counter to the mission of Aptera. It is unnecessary weight and complexity.

  • Richard Palmisano

    Member
    December 6, 2021 at 5:31 am

    I opted for the 400 mile range battery for the following reasons:

    – This will be a daily commuter, with an average round trip of 60 miles. (60mi x 5 = 300 mi).

    – I live in “The Sunshine State” Florida. I expect at min 10-20 mi of solar charging daily to suppement range (Full Solar Package Option).

    – The pack is smaller, less wieght, so my thoughts are best power to wieght ratio (tri motor configuration for me).

    All said…we really don’t know what the final product will achieve, but if they can get close to their stated goals of efficiency and price point, then all is well.

  • Fanfare 100

    Member
    May 29, 2022 at 9:32 am

    Thanks Michael. Wouldn’t Tesla’s range drop off sooner as the speed goes up due to its higher coefficient of friction?

    • Curtis Cibinel

      Member
      May 29, 2022 at 10:11 am

      No because Teslas are also heavier and need more energy to move due to rolling resistance also. Rolling restance doesn’t scale worse with speed. Rolling losses become less important with speed and aerodynamics become far more. Based on my physics cakculations a Tesla m3+ or a Rivian r1t will use more energy to get from a to b but that range degrades with speed is almost identically. This means the aptera is extremely efficient but doesn’t have some extreme strength or weakness under real conditions. If you drive any of them at 95-100 mph expect the range to be cut is half vs 60 mph; dirt roads, sand, washboard or mud will also hurt range in similar ratios as that impact scales directly with weight.

      Without its good aerodynamics, aptera would function nearly identically under 30 mph but would degrade sharply as it’s small pack and low weight would work against it at highway speed.

      • Joshua Rosen

        Member
        May 29, 2022 at 12:24 pm

        Curtis. Great spreadsheet but judging from your Tesla Model 3 numbers I’d apply a 10-15% fudge factor to it’s predictions. You have the Model 3 at 196Wh/mile at 60MPH, that’s too low, the real number is around 220Wh/mile in perfect weather, I’ve only seen 196 on backroads or at rush hour on routes 128 and 3 when the traffic is moving at 20MPH when it moves at all.

        • Curtis Cibinel

          Member
          May 29, 2022 at 1:27 pm

          I don’t have perfect numbers for every other vehicle and everything but the Aptera sheets is a simpler calculation (no aux load or usable battery). Lots of complex variables go into range and many people have observed less than rated range on many Teslas. The absolute range is secondary; my original goal was to see if Aptera had some extreme strength of weakness (it doesn’t). Using the specs I have for the 400 mile pack I established a plausible set of variables that make internal consistency; a 45 kwh pack for the 400 mile and 100 kwh for the 1000 mile would not make sense since weight reduces efficiency. Range degradation with speed or on rough surfaces for the Aptera is not substantially different than other vehicles.

          • Ronald Miller

            Member
            June 1, 2022 at 10:15 am

            Is it me or has anyone else noticed how most of the marketing starts with the 1000 mile promotion? At this point I don’t think we will see this version for a couple of years. Hope I am wrong.

            • Joshua Rosen

              Member
              June 1, 2022 at 10:58 am

              It’s a headline grabbing number but it won’t be easy to achieve. According to Curtis’s spreadsheet the 1000 mile version weighs a thousand pounds more than the base version. There will have to be major changes to the suspension to handle it, they are only claiming 500lbs of load capacity which means the 1000 mile version will exceed the capability of the base suspension by 500lbs even without passengers. They also have to stuff those extra batteries somewhere. They’ve shown illustrations where they grab a bunch of space behind the seats, have they tried that yet, will it screw up the center of gravity. Your guess of two years sounds about right to me.

            • GLENN ZAJIC

              Member
              June 1, 2022 at 12:41 pm

              I too have noticed that. The way things are sometimes presented I don’t like too. They say under $26 thousand and only $18 with the (non-existent) tax credit. Up to a thousand miles of range and 700 watts of solar. Well those are all possible but not at $18 or even $26 thousand. If you say it is just under $26K then describe that vehicle, and not something that you will charge twice that for. Just because it may be possible does not mean it is a good idea. They have hyped it up so much it will be difficult to back down from. Battery tech might make it happen in a few years but they should stop with the boasting until it is real. As always – just my opinion!! Still love Aptera!!

            • Ray Holan

              Moderator
              June 1, 2022 at 1:19 pm

              I’m with you, Glenn. I understand the desire to grab attention and build initial enthusiasm and buzz. However, in the startup EV space, initial best-case number claims often yield to more modest numbers later on. When that happens, credibility suffers.

              Hate to think Aptera might have to take a credibility hit on the vaporware 1,000 mile range model when the models we expect to see first (i.e. 400 mile, and 250 mile variants) have so much promise and are so much closer to actually being produced. Perhaps “vaporware” is too strong a word. I trust they will EVENTUALLY put that range-topping model on the road, but it’s more likely to be in 2024, than 2023. In my own use case, the 250 mile model is the best fit anyhow.

            • Curtis Cibinel

              Member
              June 1, 2022 at 1:30 pm

              According to the FB group you are in a small minority. The marking approach of up to 1000 miles and starting at $26k is unfortunately very standard practice; not doing it would put Aptera at a disadvantage.

              Personally I really don’t think a 1000 mile range is necessary and the idea of putting a monster pack in the aptera is kinda silly. I wish they had priced the 1000 mile far higher to be a true hand made marketing halo model not something trying to be practical. Priced not much above the model 3 standard range the 1000 mile Aptera is comparatively priced enough for people to needlessly get it for bragging rights.

            • Joshua Rosen

              Member
              June 1, 2022 at 2:36 pm

              The tradeoffs for the 1000 mile version will be serious enough that only the people who really need the 1000 mile range, not many, will order it. To start with the cargo space is going to be less, a lot less. Performance will also be impacted. Simple physics says that a heavier vehicle is going to accelerate slower than a lighter vehicle when you have the same amount of power in both. They may choose to further nobble it as well as a means of limiting demand. This is a very quick vehicle, Model Y Performance quick in AWD form, that’s the expectation that people have. Suppose they limit the 1000 mile version to Prius acceleration, that would be bad enough that even someone like me who was happy with the Volt’s acceleration wouldn’t consider it.

            • Dennis Swaney

              Member
              June 1, 2022 at 3:51 pm

              Ah, Curtis, there is a typo in the first poll option for the 1000 miles. 🙂

            • Curtis Cibinel

              Member
              June 1, 2022 at 5:04 pm

              Ya I know. Hurts my soul. I couldn’t edit it after making the poll and decided to just let it stay

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