Should Aptera hand make a 1000 mile version in early 2023 for Marketing Purposes

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Should Aptera hand make a 1000 mile version in early 2023 for Marketing Purposes

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Should Aptera hand make a 1000 mile version in early 2023 for Marketing Purposes

  • Should Aptera hand make a 1000 mile version in early 2023 for Marketing Purposes

  • Curtis Cibinel

    Member
    July 19, 2022 at 4:43 pm

    Currently Aptera is focusing on getting the 400 mile finalized and ready for scale production in 2023. Since they have promised a jaw dropping 1000 mile max range I wonder if they should make hand assembling this as a marking tool a priority in early 2023 (as they scale production as opposed to finalizing the 600 mile pack). This showpiece would demonstrate that the 1000 mile version is possible using available technologies and make people far more accepting that it will arrive. The power of this vehicle to show the massive range and practicality of the 1000 mile top model claims would probably go a long way. Obviously assembling a single showpiece is very expensive but if it helps generate hundreds or thousands of new reservations by demonstrating the viability of the top range model. If Aptera Owners Club is correct the larger variants may simply be more copies of the same BMS and modules (1,2,3,5).

  • Len Nowak

    Moderator
    July 19, 2022 at 4:56 pm

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ … But they are to make 110 Paradigm Plus models, which are 100 kWh

    Basically that limited edition, bundled with :

    100kWh

    I suppose Paradigm exterior colors and interiors

    FWD

    Full Solar

    Enhanced Audio

    I.e., as offered on that Dec 4 2020 offer ( If I recall correctly)

    So maybe that will be the start “ when they can think of that “ \_(ツ)_/¯

    • Steven G. Bueche

      Member
      July 20, 2022 at 4:58 am

      Len, is the 100kwh battery pack the one used in the 1000 mile variant?

      • OZ (It’s OZ, Just OZ)

        Member
        July 20, 2022 at 5:36 am

        That is correct, but based on the final pack for the 400 mile version, it would be approximately 112.5kWh total with 102.5kWh usable. (Probably a bit larger than that due to the added weight.)

      • Len Nowak

        Moderator
        July 20, 2022 at 5:48 am

        Steve

        Yes

        100kwh=1000 miles range

        But like the how the 400 mile range validate to be slightly more than 40kWh… it may be 10? kWh in the end

        ¯\_(~̃ ͜ʖ°̃)_/¯¯

        WOW

        A 1000 mi range sEV

        “ The Long Ranger” Ho Hi Aptera🌞!

        I guess there are long range drivers out there ( with no range anxiety ) ?

        • kerbe2705

          Member
          July 20, 2022 at 9:37 pm

          @Len Nowak Aptera appears to be planning for a 10% battery buffer – just like Tesla. So the 45 kWh pack with have 41 kWh usable for the “400 mile” variant.

          • Len Nowak

            Moderator
            July 21, 2022 at 5:02 am

            Yes Thx…I heard that in their video… Easy to talk whole numbers “ for now”

            Best

  • David Marlow

    Member
    July 20, 2022 at 2:50 am

    They must work with a prototype of the 600 mile version first, that they know they can make with the existing battery packs, with out intruding into existing cargo space.

    I am sure they want to show they can do what they have promised, but are looking for the best way to do it.

  • francois kilchoer

    Member
    July 20, 2022 at 5:28 am

    Yes, I think they need a 1000 mile version. After all, that’s one eye grabber !

    I have a nagging feeling, though. I get the impression that seeing how they’ve exceeded expectations with reservations, they’re not keen on this version any longer (based on comments in latest videos).

    Unfortunately, I’ve also read quite a few disparaging remarks from some Aptera enthusiasts who wonder why on earth would anyone want a 1000 miler, which probably tapers management’s enthusiasm for the model as well.

    I personally think it’s a terrific marketing tool.

    • Joshua Rosen

      Member
      July 20, 2022 at 7:03 am

      It’s value is as a marketing tool and a marketing tool only. It’s a really eye catching number and it’s something that Aptera alone can deliver. Mainstream companies are talking about 1000KM cars in the next few years as battery tech improves but a 1000 miles is years away from being practical in a conventional car.

      As a practical matter a 1000 mile range has almost no upside and a lot of downsides. The downsides are the weight and the size of the battery. The Aptera only has 500lbs of payload capacity, the 100KWh battery eats up all of that. To build the 1000 mile car they will need a new suspension that can handle the weight. Next they have to stuff the batteries somewhere, there is going to be less cargo room. The extra weight will also reduce energy efficiency and negatively effect the handling. As for upside, there isn’t much. It takes 15 hours to cover 1000 miles at 65MPH, driving 15 hours without a break would be torture. You would need to live in a charging desert to need 1000 miles of range and as far as I can see charging deserts are in actual deserts. Which brings me up to my suggestion for a publicity stunt. Drive a 1000 mile prototype from Gunnison CO to Reno NV via Route 50. It’s about 900 miles and there are no Superchargers along that route and ABBR Route planner says you can’t do that trip in a Kia EV6 at all. Another suggestion would be Juneau to Fairbanks Alaska, that’s probably a better test because there are no alternative routes. You can go Gunnison to Reno in a Tesla, you just have to add a hundred miles to the trip, but there is only one way to go from Juneau to Fairbanks.

      • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 3 days ago by  Joshua Rosen.
      • Bob Kirchner

        Member
        July 20, 2022 at 7:54 am

        On the Juneau to Fairbanks run, there’s a charger in Haines Junction, 240 miles in, leaving another 500 miles, which a 60 kWh Aptera might be able to do if it wasn’t cold.

        I looked at Skagway to Tuktoyaktuk, 963 miles, but there’s a charger in Dawson City, leaving 572 miles to go.

        There just don’t seem to be any more headline-grabbing trips left that have nearly 1000 miles without a charger. The 100 kWh Aptera might practically be necessary for these trips in the cold, but that makes the headline less impressive to those non EV buffs that wouldn’t understand the significance.

        • Joshua Rosen

          Member
          July 20, 2022 at 9:01 am

          We have a challenge on our hands. Find a nearly 1000 mile route somewhere in North America that can’t be done in any other EV. Call it The Can’t Get There From Here Challenge.

          • Bob Kirchner

            Member
            July 20, 2022 at 6:29 pm

            Hmmmm…

            Fairbanks to Prudhoe Bay AND BACK: 992 miles. But there are two 20 Amp 120 Volt plugs available in Prudhoe.

        • Philip Raymond

          Member
          July 20, 2022 at 8:25 pm

          Bob K., there are 5 plugs in Tok, Alaska at Tok RV village, 290 miles from Haines Junction. From Tok to Fairbanks is 202 miles, so it’s doable.

      • Bryan Hendricks

        Member
        July 20, 2022 at 2:24 pm

        Perhaps “upside” is in the eye of the beholder. I live in northern Utah which has periods of cold, dark, and snowy during the winter. I suspect that the colder weather and reduced hours of dimmer sunshine will decrease the amount of miles my Aptera can realistically absorb from sunshine for multiple months of the year. I suspect that I might travel more miles each day in the winter than I can expect to receive in power from the solar panels. The large battery, for me, would help extend the amount of driving I would do on solar power and minimize the number of times I would need to recharge via a wall plug. This is important to me because most of Utah’s electricity still comes from coal. I work remotely for a company based in the Bay Area (approx. 700 miles away) and anticipate that I might need to visit the Bay Area a few times per year (which would take me across one of those charging deserts). With the large battery I might even have the luxury of traveling at 70-75 mph, where permitted. I like of the idea of banking extra miles from sunshine during the summer and using those miles for my longer trips. I admit that these decisions might not make fiscal sense to other people. I don’t care. I doubt that the upgraded stereo and AWD make fiscal sense to everyone either. Our decisions reflect our values and our circumstances. To each their own. If Aptera continues to offer the large battery, I will continue to seriously consider it.

        • Len Nowak

          Moderator
          July 20, 2022 at 2:40 pm

          Bryan

          If this helps, while it is still offer… here is a code for $30 off the refundable reservation

          https://lz953.isrefer.com/go/preorder/Qzbm9uhy

          I havw driven criss country several times

          You are right, each person has their needs/desires

          I found 500 miles or less per day is safe for “me”

          So “my sweet spot” is 60 kWh for my cross country trips in my final years…ᕕ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ᕕ

          More than I need routine is a waste , expensive and perhaps not healthy for the batteries either.

          • Bryan Hendricks

            Member
            July 22, 2022 at 2:34 pm

            @Len: I’m already a reservation holder. I’m just flip flopping on the size of battery.

            • Len Nowak

              Moderator
              July 22, 2022 at 2:47 pm

              👍

          • Arlen Bell

            Member
            July 22, 2022 at 5:56 pm

            👍 100%

        • francois kilchoer

          Member
          July 21, 2022 at 2:46 pm

          @Bryan

          Almost exactly what I’ve said in another discussion.

          Supposedly, we can get “up to” 40 miles of recharge a day. That’s great, but it’s also if you live in Southern California, Arizona, etc.

          Depending on the years, I might get 40 miles of recharge for the entire month of January (I live in Switzerland). The 1000 miles will allow me to claim “I never have to charge this vehicle”, or “Charge once, drive forever”. It’s not that I’ll ever need to drive 1000 miles in one go with no break.

          And personally, if I have to give up the 3.5 second race from 0 to 60, that’s great. My trips don’t involve racing to 60mph after each stop.

          • Bryan Hendricks

            Member
            July 22, 2022 at 3:08 pm

            @Francois: Many of the assumptions underneath the Aptera mileage estimates don’t apply to many of us who believe in what Aptera is trying to do. We might want to drive faster than the optimum speed. We might live in a climate with less sun or significantly lower temperatures. We might be planning our mileage estimates around a set of batteries that have been used for a few years (instead of new batteries).

      • kerbe2705

        Member
        July 20, 2022 at 9:46 pm

        @Joshua Rosen – there is, however, the possibility that the Aptera is engineered to carry the 110 kWh pack already – and that those with smaller packs will simply benefit from carrying less weight.

        There are other places within the Aptera shell were batteries could be mounted: They won’t necessarily need fill the cargo area.

        Aptera’s battery pack isn’t slung under the vehicle so doesn’t require the kind of heavily reinforced structures required to protect “skateboard” packs: This, alone, will lead to a significant lessening in pack weight.

      • Jonah Jorgenson

        Member
        July 21, 2022 at 7:26 am

        Hmmmmm…..what about the 14-15% (By Curtis’s survey) of reservation holders reserving the 1,000 mile range version? I believe the 1,000 mi version has business/revenue value to Aptera. Perhaps you misjudged? 14/15% is a sizable amount, if taken against a 25K reservation number that would be 3,500 – 3,750 vehicles. Even more against some yet to be disclosed reservation number. If Aptera achieved 30K reservations (I personally have no doubt they will exceed that number) the number of 1,000 mi vehicles would be close to 4,500 vehicles. configured as 1,000mi, full solar, two wheel drive and no other additions ($45,800) that would represent $206+ million in revenue. A considerable value to the company.

        And the 500lb capacity is after the battery is figured in, so the 1,000 mi battery does not count against the 500lb capacity. If the battery counted it would be way over the 500lb published load

        • Arlen Bell

          Member
          July 22, 2022 at 6:08 pm

          My guess is that a lot of the 1,000 mile reservation holders will actually go for the lower range models as the initially jumped on the 1,000 mile band wagon because of bragging rights. Many of those with range anxiety may be comfortable with the other options as more and more chargers are installed. As a result the actual percentage of 1,000 mile sales is likely to be less than 10%. I would love to see a 1,000 mile Gamma though!

          • John Voules

            Member
            July 22, 2022 at 7:09 pm

            Arlen…bragging rights belong to APTERA!

            I own 2014 i3, in the summer at best I get 65 miles per charge. I ordered the 1k model not for bragging rights but for long range flexibility when I drive to Seattle from Chicago. I would like to be able to charge at my leisure and convenience when I get my hands around that smiley faced steering wheel. Now saying that, my 1st order 400 mile range will be for my bragging rights.

    • Curtis Cibinel

      Member
      July 20, 2022 at 2:33 pm

      The 1000 mile should have been priced as a true halo model to show what could be done not as a practical option – ie $100,000. As it is currently priced it is about the same as the cheapest model 3 and will require soo many batteries it will be about 50% of the retail price just in 2170 cells at wholesale. It will take about 195 liters of space for the 2170 cells of the 1000 mile version.

      Assuming they did find a practical way of storing the cells (which Aptera owners group questioned in his analysis) and it wont raise the cargo floor they should consider using the EVE 280K instead (less weight/volume) for a 600 mile range with all the other advantages of cheap LFP cells. This would be an amazing offering and by my estimate would save about $3000 vs the 2170 based 600 mile Aptera. Given inflation and rising costs this could be important profit margin.

      • John Voules

        Member
        July 20, 2022 at 3:00 pm

        Curtis, the 1k range model will be a halo model regardless of the price. You must remember APTARA is pioneering a vehicle with 3 wheels and 2 seats of which the market maybe limited at best. To double the cost, is not a great marketing tactic. APTERA is trying 1st convince the world that 3 wheels is just as safe and sporting as a 4 wheel vehicle. You can only put so many bells and whistles on a vehicle for up charging the price. I personally don’t expect my 1k model (second order) to come anytime soon, in which case APTERA may decide to update their battery types on all their vehicles.

  • Selvan Poothamby

    Member
    July 20, 2022 at 6:01 am

    I think my exact configuration, delivered, would be the best marketing move they could make.

  • Jonah Jorgenson

    Member
    July 20, 2022 at 6:42 pm

    Simple answer to this question. No. This is not the time to be diverting resources, time or capital to this kind of effort. All resources, time, and effort, etc. should be focused on getting a 400mi production vehicle into the market place to generate revenue for further development.

    • Curtis Cibinel

      Member
      July 20, 2022 at 7:13 pm

      That’s why I said early 2023 not now. They would be ramping production by then and the choice would be having the engineering team preparing the 250 mile sooner or making a 1000 mile showpiece. Producing only the very popular 400 mile for about 6 months rather than 4 would only help scale and ship more overall units.

      • John Malcom

        Member
        July 22, 2022 at 4:42 pm

        Both of the above posts have sound engineering and business logic. Now is not the time to work on the 1,000 mile variant

  • David Clark

    Member
    July 20, 2022 at 8:03 pm

    the publicity will grab headlines from all over. GREAT idea, even if it is a one-off hand built one.

  • James Gatan

    Member
    July 21, 2022 at 7:33 am

    I think Aptera should at least do a one-off 1,000mi range variant. Not only for marketing as a halo Aptera, but it will become a Range Benchmark EV, that other makes will strive to reach. It might even make it to the Guinness Books..

  • Len Nowak

    Moderator
    July 21, 2022 at 8:31 am

    🤔Couldn’t the 100kWh make sense for some fleet purchases, especially if fleet cost could be offered? And the fleets are more for sales and customer service, light business use/runs…

    I think of computer home service, solar, pest, sale calls, etc… In this state Truly Nolen use unique vehicles as their mobile sales vehicles… Some wrapped, fashioned to look like a mouse/ pest…

    ( I’ve suggested same to them ) Aptera is Unique!

    Because , until the EVSEa are built out more, in many places…The employees may not have the time in their schedule to recharge during a day’s run before they return to their location for proper 🤞 fast recharging

    Solar would be a bonus (and obscure what might be carried in the cargo area

    • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 1 day ago by  Len Nowak.
  • Tyler Fisher

    Member
    July 21, 2022 at 8:53 am

    I personally would love to see a 1,000 mile variant made ASAP, with a video on their youtube channel showing the trip. Proving these amazing range claims would do wonders for marketing this vehicle

  • Selvan Poothamby

    Member
    July 21, 2022 at 12:51 pm

    Meeting their goal of deliveries this year would be the best move for marketing. And it’ll be the 400 mile model.

  • Pistonboy Delux

    Member
    July 22, 2022 at 4:47 pm

    Mr. Curtis Cibinel,

    Good idea!

  • Harry Parker

    Moderator
    July 22, 2022 at 5:30 pm

    Curtis, That’s some wishful thinking there.

    One big problem with your request is that they haven’t yet finished any battery pack design other than the 400 mile one. Chris Anthony stated the 250 mile one will be easy since it’s a simple cut down version of the 400 mile pack, but they haven’t finalized, built and tested even that. However they have more design and testing work to do for both the 600 and 1000 mile ones.

    I expect them to make just a few (maybe only one) 400 mile “production” Aptera for customers, partially handbuilt, by the end of this year after all the testing, including crash testing, is complete on the Delta (production intent) prototypes. Delta is the next revision after the Gamma prototypes they are building now. To get to the 1000 400 mile Apteras they plan to do first will take months. They are only going to reach 10,000 per year rate at the end of next year if everything goees according to plan. (Or is that 20,000? I’ve heard both numbers.) When has a multi-million dollar project ever gon ccording to plan? That’s 1666 per month at the last month of the year. So maybe 5000 for all of 2023? That’s out of about 10,000 reeservations for the 400 mile version. I guess it depends on how many parts they can get, including their custom built motors and their battery cells.

    I expect the first 1000 mile version won’t be available until 2024 at the earliest.

    • Curtis Cibinel

      Member
      July 22, 2022 at 5:52 pm

      Again the point isn’t for release its is to divert engineers (rather than on the 250) once they are already scaling production of the 400mile to make a single functioning prototype showpiece. Making one hand made vehicle is expensive but far less than engineering for mass production. Having this to demonstrate the viability of the claims would gain a ton of acceptance and mass media attention.

  • John Malcom

    Member
    July 22, 2022 at 9:30 pm

    Aptera should not allocate any resources or capital to building a 1,000 mile variant at this time but concentrate on producing and delivering as many revenue generating 400, 250 mile (least supply chain stressful) variants as possible based on current supply chain constraints. Their plans/resource allocations must deliver a 1,000 MI variant before the end of calendar year 2023 or lose credibility in the market place which would support the fraud claims of detractors and may negatively impact efforts to raise capital or execute a successful IPO.

  • larry kaiser

    Member
    July 23, 2022 at 5:18 am

    I frequently get things on the net that list the EV’s with the longest range, lowest purchase price, fastest 0-60 times, highest MPGe and so forth. Aptera would win all or most all of these competitions but, of course, it can’t because it is not in production yet. I want them to produce a few Apteras so that they can reap the benefits of being first. Even if they have to make them by hand and if the specs change after they get into full production.

    • John Malcom

      Member
      July 23, 2022 at 8:04 am

      👍!

      • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 6 days ago by  John Malcom.
    • Bob Kirchner

      Member
      July 23, 2022 at 8:47 am

      👍👍!

      Even a 60kWh Aptera would grab the range crown. Then, if someone beats that, they introduce the 100kWh Aptera and grab it again!!

      • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 6 days ago by  Bob Kirchner.
      • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 6 days ago by  Bob Kirchner.
      • John Malcom

        Member
        July 23, 2022 at 9:31 am

        I really like the strategy!

        • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 6 days ago by  John Malcom.
  • seth feldman

    Member
    July 23, 2022 at 9:26 am

    If they don’t, I think it would make the paradigm plus false advertisement. Unless I’m wrong the 400 &1000 mile paradigm variants were originally supposed to ship at the same time. It also provides a much more attractive option for people who can’t charge every day at home/work and have to go out of their way to find charging stations.

    • John Malcom

      Member
      July 23, 2022 at 9:34 am

      The 1,000 MI paradigm variants were to be delivered after production of all of the other variants were underway

      • seth feldman

        Member
        July 23, 2022 at 9:55 am

        I’m pretty sure they changed their production plans after the paradigm reservations, which is why I said originally….

    • OZ (It’s OZ, Just OZ)

      Member
      July 23, 2022 at 10:00 am

      Seth, prior to reservations being originally taken, Aptera stated that the 1,000 mile variants would be the 4th to enter production.

      • OZ (It’s OZ, Just OZ)

        Member
        July 23, 2022 at 10:04 am

        Also I am a Paradigm Plus holder and have links to the noted information.

        • seth feldman

          Member
          July 23, 2022 at 10:10 am

          Looks like I may have been wrong. Seems kinda strange to have the 1st/4th variants as the first 2 preorder options.

        • Len Nowak

          Moderator
          July 23, 2022 at 12:15 pm

          Yes and Congrats

          It did state “4th” production. And those lucky 110 reservations were at the one time Price of only $44,900 preloaded with 100kWh, Full Solar, Enhanced Audio. So basically a $1500 saving …Right?

          FWD included and a standard *wrap color and *interior.

          Was there a Paradigm interior?

          I was not sure if you could upgrade *those, at prevailing price.

          (Most every New EVs out there had some type of limited model offer and price, KIA EV 6 had their limited production of their 1st Edition. Mullen USA FIVE is promising a Launch Edition I think for the first Five thousand, etc )

      • Joshua Rosen

        Member
        July 23, 2022 at 10:31 am

        I don’t think that anyone here is suggesting that they build a production version of the 1000 mile car any time sood. What’s on the table is a range demonstrator similar to the alphas in that it proves that their claims are reasonable. They would have to change the shocks and springs so that the suspension can hold an extra 600lbs and stuff another 60KWh of batteries into the cargo area. The ride and handling might be mediocre, not what you would want in a production vehicle, it only needs to be good enough so that they can take it on a couple of thousand mile trip. The extra batteries might be a bit unsightly and the charging speeds might be inadequate for a production car. It also won’t be a vehicle that they could legally hand over to an outsider, it would have to be driven by an Aptera employee. On their demonstration ride they could have ride alongs by several reviewers but they wouldn’t be allowed to drive it.

        • Jonah Jorgenson

          Member
          July 23, 2022 at 12:34 pm

          Production of the 1,000 mile variant is scheduled for the 4th production run as stated on other posts. Aptera should stick to their plan as they are the only entity that has the finger on all of the variables. We, as arm chair quarterbacks only see a small part of the puzzle and should not presume to give advice to their senior management especially if we haven’t had some C level or SVP experience including Profit and Loss (P&L) success in a profitable startup.

          That takes most of us out of the running for legitimate opinions and advice on a strategy for Aptera.

  • John Voules

    Member
    July 23, 2022 at 11:40 am

    For those of us that are waiting from our 1k APTERA……only one thing to say.

    Patience is a virtue…that will pay off.

    After developing the 1st three iterations, how much more knowledge they would have gained with building and improving the final product.

    • Jonah Jorgenson

      Member
      July 23, 2022 at 12:35 pm

      Sound tech and business observation and good advice about being patient.

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