Source of Aptera batteries

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Source of Aptera batteries

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Source of Aptera batteries

  • Source of Aptera batteries

     Alain Chuzel updated 3 weeks, 6 days ago 13 Members · 34 Posts
  • Sanchilo Kosila

    Member
    May 30, 2022 at 8:15 pm

    Can someone elaborate on where the batteries and/or parts for the batteries are sourced? Are they sourced from companies that traffic in “blood batteries”? I am extremely excited about this EV, but I want to make sure I am not participating in the appalling practices used to source the minerals for the batteries.

    Thanks

  • Curtis Cibinel

    Member
    May 30, 2022 at 8:49 pm

    Nothing has been announced and I would expect battery suppliers to potentially change over time or between ranges. Samsung cells have clearly been seen in videos. The Aptera does make use of cobalt and to my knowledge no supply chain statements or standards about disclosing cobalt sources exists in the industry. Most cobalt even in the congo makes use of traditional (rather than “artisanal”) mining approaches with international companies controlling the operation. Ideally Aptera will eventually switch the shorter range versions to LFP (which essentially avoids the possibility while also improving safety and reducing costs) but I doubt anyone on this forum will have the inside information to answer you with any certainty regarding cobalt sourcing.

    In general while cobalt is definitely a potential problem and ethical sources are hard to validate I believe this is mostly a general FUD campaign against EVs. Ugly oil company practices and pollution impacts are far worse especially when you figure in the amount of oil an ICE vehicle will use over its life vs perhaps 30kg of cobalt in an Aptera.

    • Pepper Martin

      Member
      June 1, 2022 at 10:44 am

      Battery chemistry / technology is still evolving. LFP/ 4680 cell to pack is cheapest and simplest, but is shorter range. Anticipate pack shell and main connects to stay the same but batteries different. If Aptera isn’t building connectors & input capability for Tesla super charging stations they are really stupid. It negates the need for expensive rare earth long range batteries all together- that’s a dead end engineering goal and a waste of time. Who is going to drive a thousand miles without passing a Tesla charger? It’s all marketing bs. Get serious.

      • Jonah Jorgenson

        Member
        June 1, 2022 at 6:09 pm

        I can assure you they are not stupid. Quite astute. You have your opinion. Mine is they are considerably more competent than you give them credit for and will engineer the best solution for the Aptera. The Tesla charging design is approaching being a dinosaur as Europe is CCS, the US is CCS, and Tesla is installing CCS connectors on their superchargers.

        • Curtis Cibinel

          Member
          June 1, 2022 at 7:02 pm

          CCS1 in the US is different from CCS2 in europe. The tesla plug standard is limited to 400v which will likely make the cybertruck, with its 800v architecture, need CCS1 to charge unless they add a DC/DC converter like the Taycan (https://insideevs.com/news/512344/porsche-taycan-fast-charging-analysis/). Converters for Tesla’s to use CCS1 are also becoming available. Overall neither one is a dinosaur. CCS1 is common enough (roughly equal number of stalls here in BC) but the Tesla plug is more elegant for lower power vehicles like the Aptera. Double headed chargers and adapters will be around for a long time.

      • Markus Schmid

        Member
        June 4, 2022 at 3:34 pm

        Although the apparently signed-up-for-one-post-only-user Pepper Martin unlikely will read this, I just wanted to clarify for those who might not know yet: rare earth materials are NOT used for battery production. Never. (They are used for the magnets in electric motors though).

  • kerbe2705

    Member
    May 31, 2022 at 12:34 am

    @Sanchilo Kosila – considering how environmentally conscious Aptera is as a company I’m certain that they will be open and above-board about their materials sourcing once they establish who their suppliers are going to be.

    Aptera has not announced anything about their battery sourcing although, as @Curtis Cibinel stated, they are currently using Samsung cells in their prototype vehicles. Samsung makes NCM and NCA batteries – and is working on an NMx chemistry.

    Note that the cobalt used in Lithium Ion batteries can be reclaimed and reused to make new batteries while the cobalt used to desulphur gasoline and diesel fuel is depleted by the process. The fuel refining industry destroys about 850 MILLION tons of cobalt each year – which is enough to build large-capacity battery packs for nearly 20 million electric cars (6.5 million EVs were sold world-wide in 2021).

  • Sanchilo Kosila

    Member
    May 31, 2022 at 7:34 am

    Thanks Curtis and kerbe2705 for the responses. Like most things I get involved with, I try to make sure it is as ethical as possible. When it comes to unethical corporate practices, consumers usually have to wait until a conscientious reporter exposes things. As Musk said, the downfall of the corporate entity will be the reliance on MBAs, who’s main motive will always be the maximizing of profits. Until we, the consumers, get off our butts to do the necessary research and keep corporations accountable, they will do what they deem is best for their bottom lines.

    Curtis, I appreciate you bringing up the artisanal mining in the Congo, but that is not the only area of concern. China, who fills a large amount of the global battery needs, has horrendous labor practices and we need to also shine a light on that as much as possible. I’m not as concerned about big oil potentially being the source of this content. Evil is evil, regardless of whether it is exposed by one side of the argument or the other.

    I truly hope that Aptera will make conscious decisions to build a product that is as free from unethical practices as possible, and not succumb to financial pressures that could arise from wanting to get the product to market.

  • Patrick Liebknecht

    Member
    May 31, 2022 at 12:44 pm

    <div>With 22,000 preorders. I hope they are up to the task no matter where they get them from </div><div>
    </div>https://electrek.co/2022/05/30/aptera-reservations-solar-electric-car-range/amp/https://electrek.co/2022/05/30/aptera-reservations-solar-electric-car-range/amp/

  • Efrain Goody

    Member
    May 31, 2022 at 12:46 pm

    I’m just going to say it.. Basically anything you buy has some level of cruelty and/or suffering involved in bringing it into existence. Sure, I am all for making the world a better place with less pain and hardship, but using terms like ‘blood batteries’ strikes me as comically activistic.

  • Sanchilo Kosila

    Member
    June 1, 2022 at 5:54 pm

    Why would you criticize another person’s choice of belief? At least Curtis and kerbe2705 were able to offer constructive responses to the question. Are you the type of person that feels better putting others down? If so, please find another post to troll. I am looking for helpful information.

    I’m surprised the moderators are letting your post stand. Aptera, is this the type of community members you want involved with your organization?

    • Jonah Jorgenson

      Member
      June 1, 2022 at 6:00 pm

      Hey perhaps you can take your own advice. Efrain has just as much right to express his views as do you. So why don’t you stop trolling other posters

    • Curtis Cibinel

      Member
      June 1, 2022 at 6:30 pm

      I actually see very little wrong with Efrain’s point.

      Much as we try to avoid it our choices the reality, especially for transportation, have negative impacts. Metals for an EV battery might have been mined by someone making $3 per day working 12 hours and that is definitely a problem. Alternatively you can drive a gas car which will prematurely kill people due to environmental impact. Unless you ride a hand made wooden bike around, make your own cloths and buy only from the most hippie of farmers markets absolutely everything people do has negative impacts.

      Our modern connected society is becoming more transparent about these information on the lifecycle of products but pretending anything will ever be perfect would be deluded. The term “blood batteries” was given to try to sensationalize this one negative effect (likely by the car industry). Knowing the true cost of something is more possible now but it requires research and not just parroting back the first headline you see.

      PS: I tried to find the source of kerbe2705’s numbers of cobalt in fuel production but came up short. It is a catalyst and makes up a large part of the 7% of cobalt use in that category but batteries are already 41% and with expanding demand for EVs that is likely to expand. https://www.chargesmart.co.nz/post/cobalt-mining If the information given in this very unofficial source (https://www.quora.com/How-much-cobalt-is-used-in-refining-oil-How-much-is-used-in-electric-car-batteries) is accurate only 1 lb of cobalt is needed to make 6.6 million gallons of gas. This would would make the 850 million tons stat inaccurate unless every person in the world uses 710,126,586 gallons of gas per year. Here is another source (https://www.reddit.com/r/oil/comments/e2g33h/how_much_cobalt_is_used_for_desulphurisation/) which claims we use 94,500 tons of cobalt per year for refining (note: he linked his source of the data – https://www.researchgate.net/publication/324267576_Recovery_of_Cobalt_from_leach_solution_of_spent_oil_Hydrodesulphurization_catalyst_using_a_synergistic_system_consisting_of_Versatic_TM_10_and_Cyanex_R_272).

      • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  Curtis Cibinel. Reason: Added additional cobalt use references

      How much cobalt is used for Desulphurisation? from oil

      • kerbe2705

        Member
        June 2, 2022 at 9:33 pm

        @Curtis Cibinel There are 135 billion gallons of fuel refined each year. The oil refiners want us to believe that it takes only 1 pound of cobalt to refine 6.6 million gallons but, in fact, it takes several tons of cobalt to desulphur 6.6 M gallons of fuel – and only about 1 pound of it is actually destroyed in the process. The rest, however, is seriously contaminated and rendered ineffective and the processes used to recycle it for reuse are expensive and energy-intensive. In practice, once the cobalt is depleted, it’s discarded.

        Of the nearly 375 M pounds of cobalt mined each year, more than 26 M pounds are consumed by oil refineries.

        • Curtis Cibinel

          Member
          June 2, 2022 at 11:42 pm

          26 million lb is a lot less than 850m tons (more than 4 orders of magnitude). Still a lot but far less than an equivalent industry of evs based on cobalt would use. The petrolium industry does lots of harm but cobalt use is the least of them.

          • Alain Chuzel

            Member
            June 3, 2022 at 6:21 am

            I believe the difference is only 2 orders of magnitude but I’ve never been too comfortable with how “orders of magnitude” is defined……

            • Thomas Bushaw

              Member
              June 4, 2022 at 8:38 am

              Think of “order of magnitude” as “factor of 10” or 10x. So 4 orders of magnitude would be 10x10x10x10 (10^4, or a factor of 10,000). 850m tons is 850m x 2000 lbs or 1.7×10^12 lbs, which is higher than 26 million by a factor of ~65,385. So yes, “more than 4 orders of magnitude” is accurate. Logarithms… don’t you love ’em!

            • Alain Chuzel

              Member
              June 6, 2022 at 6:53 am

              Thanks Thomas but I, embarrassingly, misread Curtis’s comment. I didn’t notice he used “lb” for the 26 million and “tons” for the 850 (million).

              Interestingly, I did a quick study of “order of magnitude” on Wikipedia and according to it’s “definition”, it looks like the difference between Curtis’s two numbers is 5 orders of magnitude! (which, of course, still qualifies as “more than 4 orders of magnitude”).

              Thanks again for your simple explanation.

              (note to self, again, stop commenting before 8 AM!)

              (damn it, I did it again!)

          • kerbe2705

            Member
            June 3, 2022 at 8:22 am

            @Curtis Cibinel Thank you for keeping me honest – I wanted to respond to the original poster ASAP and didn’t fact-check my sources until afterwards – and then found that the time window for editing had closed.

            It’s not the amount of cobalt used by the petro industry – it’s the fact that they downplay their use of it (and their use of electricity – some sources say that it takes 6kW to refine each gallon – from extracting crude to sale at the pump) in order to deride EVs.

  • Sanchilo Kosila

    Member
    June 2, 2022 at 2:47 pm

    There seems to be some confusion about my post, so let me clarify. I was not referring to his point, but rather to his criticism of my personal belief and practices (e.g. “comically activistic”). Why does it matter to him what the reason is for my inquiry? If there isn’t anything constructive to add to the conversation, why participate? And as for me trolling, please understand what that means before commenting. I understand that everyone is free to speak their mind, but there are consequences and impacts to the words you use.

    I was hoping that a forum for a vehicle, the likes of Aptera, would be populated with the type of people who would want to advance a conversation as important as the one at hand. But what I’ve seen so far is quickly turning these forums into another twitter board. This post is not the only example either.

    • Ray Holan

      Moderator
      June 2, 2022 at 3:56 pm

      Sanchilo, we try to maintain civil discourse here on the forum. I will only remove posts that are patently offensive. Sometimes our choice of words can rub each other the wrong way when no offense was intended. I believe the sentiments you have shared about making conscious choices with our purchases are shared by many here. Stick around. Sticking together is better than the alternative.😀

      • Sanchilo Kosila

        Member
        June 3, 2022 at 9:26 am

        Thanks, Ray. I am confident there are members here who share my sentiments towards conscious choices. I plan on sticking around to learn more about the vehicle and to gather as much information as I can before it goes into production.

    • Llewellyn Evans

      Member
      June 3, 2022 at 7:06 am

      Hi Sanchilo,

      The reason you have had a bad reaction from some community members is because trolls use expressions like the one that you used. My friendly suggestion is to read through some of the posts here and see how the other members treat each other and what language they use. We tend to stick to the facts as much as possible and avoid making unnecessarily inflammatory comments.

      This of course does not stop us from having and expressing strong opinions …. it is just done respectfully.

      Welcome and enjoy!!

      By the way, have you heard they are looking at mining some of these minerals from the sea floor? If they can do it in an ecologically sustainable way, it would help with the need for a better supply.

      • Sanchilo Kosila

        Member
        June 3, 2022 at 9:40 am

        Thanks Llewellyn. My original post was not meant to offend anyone. The term “blood batteries” is a commonly recognized term to illustrate the unethical nature of how the source materials are obtained. I was not intentionally directing my comments towards anyone other than those companies engaging in that practice. But to your point and Ray’s, I will try to use more generic terms when posting. I look forward to more informative and productive conversations.

        • Jonah Jorgenson

          Member
          June 3, 2022 at 10:08 am

          Glad to see you moderating your posts. The forum is for discussion of Aptera not a platform for political discourse.

          There are many, I would say most on the forum, that share concerns about fair treatment in industry and “Green” concepts as this would come along with interest in Aptera, but do not express them on this forum.

          Of course some that don’t share these principles, but keep their thoughts to themselves in respect for the guidelines of the forum and their fellow Aptera enthusiasts.

          • Sanchilo Kosila

            Member
            June 3, 2022 at 11:07 am

            Hi Jonah,

            I’m hoping you don’t take this as a challenge to your comments, but how could I have inquired about the battery source without providing context? If I had just simply asked from where the batteries are sourced, I’m guessing the answers would have been, “From China.” Please help me rephrase my original question?

  • David Marlow

    Member
    June 2, 2022 at 3:33 pm

    I do not know their source or sources, however a year ago I tried to suggest a source and was told that they had all ready narrowed the list and were not considering others.

    I am also sure that they are continuing to look at new battery techs for the years ahead.

  • Sanchilo Kosila

    Member
    June 3, 2022 at 9:22 am

    Thanks, David!

  • Llewellyn Evans

    Member
    June 3, 2022 at 2:52 pm

    Hi Sanchilo,

    Some battery chemistries contain the Cobalt, others do not. I am not sure which batteries Aptera is using.

    I think they will use LiPo batteries which contain Cobalt. Somebody Please correct me if I am wrong on this!!🙂

    To fix the unethical supply of Cobalt problem, we need to address both supply and demand.

    – Get supply from other sources

    – Minimise demand

    Aptera is helping with the reduction of demand for Cobalt. Each Aptera uses about half as much as the competitors because the batteries in Aptera are smaller.

    Supply may come from other sources in future like the sea floor.

    https://time.com/6094560/deep-sea-mining-environmental-costs-benefits/

    • Sanchilo Kosila

      Member
      June 3, 2022 at 6:30 pm

      Thanks Llewellyn. That is good information. I agree that part of the problem, as well as the solution, is demand. We need to reduce the demand for the unethically sourced batteries. But as I mentioned earlier in the conversation, we also have to reduce the demand for goods from places that have appalling labor practices.

      I’m not going to preach to anyone about what THEY should do or not do. All I can do is gather information and make personal choices about my level of participation.

      • Llewellyn Evans

        Member
        June 4, 2022 at 4:22 pm

        Hi Sanchilo, I think you have hi lighted an important issue that needs to be addressed quickly and from all directions. I can’t see a reduction in demand for batteries any time soon so the larger problem is a technological and economic one. I agree that making the choice as a consumer to select batteries that do not use Cobalt whenever possible can help.

        Think global, act local.

    • kerbe2705

      Member
      June 4, 2022 at 9:08 am

      @Llewellyn Evans Evans Aptera’s battery packs aren’t smaller than those in many other EVs – it’s just that an Aptera will travel significantly farther on the power stored in its batteries. For example, the Fiat 500 has a 24 kWh battery, the Hyundai Ioniq has a 42 kWh battery, the VW ID3 has a 62 kWh battery and the Tesla Model S has a 100 kWh battery – the four “sizes” of Aptera batteries.

      You are correct: Most 2170 battery cells do have cobalt in their chemistry, the two most common being NMC and NCA (nickel/manganese/cobalt) and nickel/cobalt/aluminum). LFP cells (Lithium Iron Phosphate) do not contain cobalt but they heavier and less energy-dense than NMC or NCA cells – and they aren’t currently made in a cylindrical form factor.

Viewing 1 - 11 of 11 replies

or to reply.

Original Post
0 of 0 posts June 2018
Now