EV law, tax, rebate info

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions EV law, tax, rebate info

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions EV law, tax, rebate info

  • EV law, tax, rebate info

     Jeff updated 5 days, 12 hours ago 102 Members · 294 Posts
  • Curtis Cibinel

    Member
    August 11, 2021 at 8:52 pm

    Note: I know that incentives can potentially get into political debate. I will try to stick to facts but do apologize if anyone feels I’m crossing that line.

    I’m starting this thread to discuss the current incentives in Canada ???????? and how they relate to Aptera. It’s great to see progress being made with the terribly named Build Back Better Act potentially providing a $7500 USD incentive. Information for 2-3 wheel vehicles is less common than traditional EVs so I figured getting everyone clear on the state of things first would help. Hopefully we can put together some templates and contact information for representatives so we can push for change. It makes no sense for a Chevy Bolt to have a $13k CAD incentive when Aptera in most provinces gets $0. Aptera shouldn’t be forced into a major market disadvantage due to flawed legislation. Downsizing to a motorcycle or an Aptera is way more efficient and when the programs exclude them it is bad for Aptera, the free market, and overall energy use.

    Federal Program:

    Our federal IZEV program (incentive for zero emission vehicles) completely ignored 2 and 3 wheeled vehicles.

    No, 2-wheeled vehicles, like motorcycles or e-bikes, are not eligible.

    The iZEV Program was created to reduce emissions from cars and light trucks, which produce about 50% of transportation-related greenhouse gas emissions in Canada. With this goal in mind, the Program requires vehicles to have at least four functioning wheels and be highway capable, intended for use on public streets, roads, and highways, and meet all Canada Motor Vehicle Safety Standards in order to receive an incentive.

    Provincial (aka state) Programs:

    Most provinces have EV incentive programs but they are limited to 4 wheeled vehicles. The CEV (clean energy vehicle) for BC (my province) is also 4 wheels only and most provinces have equivalents. The only provinces with “electric motorcycle” programs are BC (SUVI – Special Use Vehicle Incentive) and Quebec (New Vehicle Rebate / Programme Rabais Vehicule Neuf). These programs are nearly identical and provide $2000. Most existing vehicles under these programs are low speed scooters under $10k.

    Extra Hoops:
    Most or all programs in canada have two key requirements. The vehicle must be sold and initially registered in canada. Tesla gets around this by selling the vehicle in CAD with related taxes and delivering in Canada. This will be very tricky for Aptera in the early stages since it is a business logistics requirement. Due to costs and extra challenges in other markets (ie shipping, road width, driving sides, charge ports) I would be very surprised if Canada isn’t Aptera’s 2nd largest market initially so I would hope they can address these things within the first few years of shipping units.

    Note: For a laugh check out the Tesla site in the canadian locale (https://www.tesla.com/en_ca/model3). One of the provinces has a low price ceiling in the incentive program so tesla needs to offer a sub $50k CAD option which noone will every buy since its limited to less than 100 miles. As long as this low trim exists on menu (not special order) they were eligible. This kind of shenanigans will be tricky for Aptera to do with less legal and business logistics resources.

    • This discussion was modified 4 months, 1 week ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.
    • This discussion was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.
    • This discussion was modified 1 week ago by  bbelcamino.
  • kerbe2705

    Member
    August 11, 2021 at 8:52 pm
  • Raj Giandeep

    Member
    August 11, 2021 at 9:11 pm

    In regards to the Aptera, I wonder if only applies to the base price. The 600 range Aptera could go over $40K with add-ons just barely.

    • John Malcom

      Member
      August 11, 2021 at 10:38 pm

      It is based on the sales price (MSRP) of the base vehicle plus the price of accessories and options. The whole price of the vehicle. But since the Aptera is not a car (Auto cycle or motorcycle depending on the state) it is not applicable to us anyway, at least at present

  • BRUCE MENGLER

    Member
    August 12, 2021 at 6:30 pm

    It not law yet but below is what I just found & may not apply to Aptera.

    As investors had expected, the budget reconciliation bill removed the 200,000-vehicle cap in what looked like a win for the industry. But it was too soon to celebrate. On Wednesday, the Senate passed an amendment that grants the $7,500 credit only for EVs that cost less than $40,000, and only if the buyer earns less than $100,000 a year.

    • Fanfare 100

      Member
      August 12, 2021 at 7:02 pm

      Thanks. So, if the earner earns 100,001 they won’t be eligible for the $7,500?

    • OZ (It’s OZ, Just OZ)

      Member
      August 12, 2021 at 8:29 pm

      Went and found the text of the amendment. Need a good lawyer to get the true meaning, but several things in the wording. “The Chairman of the Committee on the Budget of the Senate may revise the allocations” (Key word “May”) and “which may include limiting eligibility of individuals with an adjusted gross income of greater than $100,000 or setting maximum car values allowed for eligible purchases at $40,000″(Key words “May and Or”) So not fully set in stone. Additionally the AGI is named for individuals, so I would assume that likely married/joint filers would get a $200,000 limit.

  • Pistonboy Delux

    Member
    August 12, 2021 at 9:33 pm

    Some are purchasing Apteras over the $40,000 limit. It would be nice if they can purchase a more stripped down version keeping the cost below $40,000 , then extra batteries and features are added later. But I don’t think any of this is relevant. The Aptera is a motorcycle, and I strongly suspect this only applies to automobiles, not motorcycles.

  • Steven G. Bueche

    Member
    August 13, 2021 at 2:46 pm

    Just like the last rounds of ‘Credit’ will they be Liability Credits or Point of Sale? What good is it if you don’t owe money to the government when you file your taxes? If you’re due a refund or break even it’s almost as if you’re being punished for being a good planner.

    Point Of Sale is the only way they should give these credits.

    • OZ (It’s OZ, Just OZ)

      Member
      August 13, 2021 at 5:13 pm

      I think you may misunderstand, This type of credit is against your total tax bill for the year, not for what you owe or get at filing time, so it would increase your refund to offset for taxes paid. This type is classified as “Non-refundable” as opposed to “Refundable” the difference being that with a “Non-refundable” the credit cannot exceed your taxes owed for the year. (IE a $7500 credit can reduce your $10,000 tax liability for the year down to $2500, but if your total Fed Tax liability was only $7000 the excess $500 goes away and ceases to exist, if it were a “Refundable” credit you would get back the $7000 you paid in taxes plus $500 bonus dollars at filing time.

      • Patrick Liebknecht

        Member
        December 23, 2021 at 4:17 pm

        No he doesn’t misunderstand tax credits

        Refundable tax credits are different than non refundable tax credits and rebates are a completely different animal

        This is from smart assets website

        With a non-refundable tax credit, on the other hand, you won’t end up with a refund if your tax liability falls below zero. So if you have a $2,500 non-refundable credit, you only owe $1,000, the extra $1,500 won’t be accessible to you

        Maybe Oz you are confusing refundable and non refundable tax credits.

        The last round of EV tax credits were non refundable

        • OZ (It’s OZ, Just OZ)

          Member
          December 23, 2021 at 7:41 pm

          Patrick, nope, my explanation is spot on and in agreement with what you just posted. However, it looks like a lot of people are mistaking what they owe when filing, with their total yearly tax obligation, which is the amount you need to use when determining the amounts. You’ve normally had taxes withheld out of each paycheck, (Or paid quarterly if self employed.) You file your taxes in April and you find you owe $1,000 because you’ve underpaid in the course of a year. That’s not the amount you use before the credit though, you take the years total tax amount (If at tax time you still owe $1,000 you likely paid quite a few thousand already.), and subtract the credit from that. I ran the numbers somewhere else but if you had adjusted taxable income for the year of, I think it was about $55,000, you would get the full $7,500 dollar credit.

  • Eric Rucker

    Member
    August 13, 2021 at 7:41 pm

    There’s a key here:

    Thankfully, Sen. Fischer’s amendment is non-binding and is unlikely to be greeted warmly by the House of Representatives.

    So, I’m not too worried about that.

    Besides, being a 3-wheel vehicle, Aptera would be under a proposed renewal of the 2 and 3 wheel EV tax credits instead, which is 10% of the purchase price, up to a maximum credit of $2500. As all models of Aptera are advertised over $25,000, they’d get the maximum $2500 credit.

  • Fanfare 100

    Member
    August 21, 2021 at 6:20 pm

    NewJersey’s again offering $5K off #ElectricVehicles!! Here’s how: https://www.nj.com/news/2021/07/nj-is-again-offering-5k-off-electric-vehicles-heres-how-it-works.html So, potentially, for New Jerseyans, an Aptera could cost as little as: ****$13,400****

    WOOHOO!!

  • my_discord_number_is_0328 bloody stupid

    Member
    August 21, 2021 at 7:16 pm

    not sure how that works but, can somone from new jersy buy on behalf of non new jersy people to save non jersy mans money?

  • Harry Parker

    Moderator
    August 21, 2021 at 8:13 pm

    Hate to burst your bubble. As the ancient saying goes,

    “The large print Giveth and the small print Taketh Away.”

    After clicking on the “Terms and Conditions” in the fine print of

    https://chargeup.njcleanenergy.com

    we learn on the last page of many that “2 and 3 wheeled vehicles are ineligible”. ????

    We need to do a little lobbying here in NJ to get that revised.

    • Fanfare 100

      Member
      August 22, 2021 at 12:43 pm

      Thanks for looking into it Harry. Hopefully Steve & friends are working on getting the Aptera included into the regular family of vehicles instead of the government considering these to be dune buggies and the like.

    • IA -1

      Member
      December 17, 2021 at 8:09 am

      It seems that the funding for the program ended in September. I just sent an email to chargeupnj@energycenter.org asking them to include 2 and 3 wheel vehicles into the new 2022 funding. If anyone else is from NJ, please send an email and request the same.

      The Charge Up New Jersey Program has been successful for the second year in a row, with allocated funding expected to dwindle by the end of the week. The deadline to order, purchase, or lease an eligible electric vehicle is 9:00 p.m. ET on Wednesday, September 15, 2021.

      Dealerships will have until 8:00 p.m. ET on October 15, 2021 to submit incentive applications for eligible vehicles. The cut-off date ensures that all eligible customers who are due an incentive have the opportunity to have their incentive reserved and then applied at the point-of-sale once the vehicle is delivered.

      • IA -1

        Member
        December 17, 2021 at 1:32 pm

        Well, it looks like ChargeUp are only the administrators of the Program and we will have to address our request somewhere else.

        Thank you for your email. As only administrators of the Charge Up New Jersey program, and we must adhere to the terms and conditions set by the New Jersey Board of Public Utilities. Unfortunately, we are unable to assist with your inquiry.

  • Joshua Rosen

    Member
    August 22, 2021 at 8:41 am

    Three wheel vehicles aren’t eligible for the Federal credit either.

    • John Malcom

      Member
      August 22, 2021 at 9:38 am

      Thanks for going the extra mile researching this Harry. The devil is always in the details. If it looks to good to be true, it is usually not true.

      ????

      But given some time and effort in states with these caveats we can get it changed before delivery ramps up

      • Joshua Rosen

        Member
        August 23, 2021 at 6:03 am

        Aptera will need to lobby Congress to get three wheeler’s covered if and when they change the tax credit. They won’t get any help from the Biden administration which is only interested in the UAW, not electrification. Biden is hostile to startups because they are disrupters which are bad for unions because it’s bad for old industrial companies which employ union members. Biden’s proposal gave an extra $2500 for cars from union companies and his EV summit only included GM, Ford and Stelantis (which doesn’t make any EVs just a couple of minimal range plugins and isn’t even an American company, it’s Dutch). They deliberately snubbed Tesla (the world’s largest producer of EVs) as well as every other startup such as Rivian, Lucid and Aptera.

  • Joshua Rosen

    Member
    September 13, 2021 at 7:24 am

    Please write your Congressperson and let them know that you oppose the new bill that will give $12,500 credits to the big 3 and probably nothing for Aptera because it has only three wheels. Should the government be subsidizing F150 Lightnings that will probably get 2 miles/KWh at the expense of a Aptera that gets 10 miles/KWh. The credits are simply not necessary anymore, the entry level price of the Aptera is only $26K and they are doing it through innovation not by government subsidies. This bill encourages watt guzzlers at the expense of innovative cars from startups. I don’t think there should be any subsidy at this point, it’s not necessary at this point. The top three selling EVs are the Model Y, Model 3 and Bolt, none of which get a tax credit under the current law.

    Even if they retain a subsidy it should be much smaller, $12,500 is obscene.

  • Steve Lee

    Member
    September 13, 2021 at 8:07 am

    I think they should tie the credits to efficiency because the goal is to reduce energy consumption.

    • Joshua Rosen

      Member
      September 13, 2021 at 8:25 am

      The Biden administration has zero interest in the environment, this bill is about the UAW and the UAW alone. If this was about the environment the credit would be tied to miles/KWh and if it was rational it would be capped at a much lower level. $12,500 is obscene. I’d rather there be no subsidy at all, let the market sort things out. When the original bill was passed the tax credit made sense, batteries cost $1000/KWh at the time. It was a way of jump starting the technology so that the costs could come down. They are down enough at this point where EVs are competitive on their own. Aptera plans to start at $26K, that’s really cheap for any car. The average new car in the US is over $40K. Even GM was able to price the Bolt in the very low 30s, if LG hadn’t screwed them that would have been a very affordable car.

  • Joey Lao

    Member
    September 13, 2021 at 8:48 am

    I don’t understand why it’s limited to 4 wheel vehicles. What’s the rational behind that?

  • Bob Kirchner

    Member
    September 13, 2021 at 9:09 am

    How about writing to your Congressperson and asking that the credit be extended to three wheeled vehicles?

  • Joshua Rosen

    Member
    September 17, 2021 at 7:12 am

    One more detail from this terrible bill. They do have a provision for three wheelers, it’s only $2500. However they are giving $4000 rebates to plugin hybrids as long as the battery is 10KWh or more. That means that a Toyota Prius Prime with a pathetic 25 miles of range will get a $4000 rebate, an Aptera with a 1000 miles of range will get only $2500.

    • David Maddon

      Member
      October 30, 2021 at 5:46 pm

      No current plug in hydrides qualify as it requires a 2.5 gallon max gas tank.

  • Raj Giandeep

    Member
    September 17, 2021 at 1:09 pm

    https://youtu.be/vlj-CRwpYgA?t=634

    This video mentions 2 & 3 wheel EVs is part of the proposed bill.
    $2500 up to 10% max

    • David Maddon

      Member
      October 30, 2021 at 5:54 pm

      The agreement now has 30% up to $7,500.

  • Dan Roberts

    Member
    September 19, 2021 at 6:20 pm

    Remember folks this is a startup. Usually employees of startups enjoy stock options and get to participate in the growth of the company. I don’t know what Aptera has in mind in this regard but from what I have heard from the founders employees would probably benefit much more from stock options than having a union shop. Unions typically do not enjoy stock options. Regardless of political leanings, I am confident Aptera will treat there employees fairly without the drag of legacy unions.

  • John Malcom

    Member
    September 21, 2021 at 10:07 am

    One last point. Aptera management supports this bill. They have asked their ambassadors to write to their representatives and senators using a form letter to express support and to include three wheeled vehicles more broadly.

    For everyone on this forum that is inspired to write their representatives with opposition to the bill (Certainly their right) it negates one ambassadors influence.

    It is always my hope that the Aptera community can come together and collectively and enthusiastically support the direction the company wants to go

    • Bryce Wessel

      Member
      September 21, 2021 at 2:14 pm

      I believe that letting our representatives know we support subsidies for vehicles with no tailpipe emissions is the priority. I believe it is OK to let them know that as negotiations proceed, it would be better to focus on subsidizing results associated with this goal while keeping secondary objectives as separate incentives where possible. A simple credit of $25/mile of EPA range up to a limit based on the GVWR would accommodate everything from bikes to semi’s and allow negotiation room in setting the various limits. Add-on incentives up to 10% each could support consensus building initiatives on top of the base amount without completely overwhelming the primary intent.

      There is not a single EV form factor that works for everyone (bicycle, motorcycle, 3-wheeler, 2-seater, 4-seater, 8-seater, shuttle, cargo, towing, etc.) so federal incentives should focus on reducing the barrier to adoption for all form factors allowing consumers to make the choice based on individual utility rather than price models that heavily favor selective categories.

      I suppose I support any legislation lowering the barrier to EV adoption, but it would sure be nice to steer incentives towards policies that are less prescriptive to better reward efficiency innovation like we are seeing with Aptera.

  • Noah Blumenthal

    Member
    September 22, 2021 at 9:37 am

    For anyone interested, below is a status update on the NYS legislation to allow people with standard driver’s licenses to operate autocycles (instead of requiring motorcycle licenses).

    Good Morning,

    I am writing regarding your email requesting information on A7192 relating to auto-cycles. As you may be aware, this bill passed both the Assembly and Senate during the 2020 and 2021 legislative sessions in Albany. Last session, Governor Cuomo vetoed the bill citing issues with the definition of “auto-cycle.” It is also known that Governor Cuomo had personal experiences on auto-cycles and he didn’t agree with the premise of the bill. For your review, I have included the veto message at the bottom of this email.

    I contacted the sponsor’s office, Assemblywoman Lupardo. Staff explained the bill was amended to reflect the language issues mentioned in the veto memo from 2020. During Governor Hochul’s transition to office the amount of bills being sent to the Governor’s office, for signature, have significantly slowed down. However, the sponsor’s office is hopeful Governor Hochul will positively analyze the bill and support the amendments.

    I would be happy to notify you when the Governor takes action on this bill.

    https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bills/2019/S4580

    VETO MESSAGE – No. 59

    TO THE ASSEMBLY:

    I am returning herewith, without my approval, the following bill:

    Assembly Bill Number 5390-B, entitled:

    “AN ACT to amend the vehicle and traffic law, in relation to the
    operation of a three-wheeled vehicle”

    NOT APPROVED

    This bill would allow for the operation of an autocycle by a person
    holding a Class D license. A Class D license allows a holder to operate
    a standard automobile. Currently, to operate an autocycle in this State,
    a person must hold a Class M license, which allows for the operation of
    a motorcycle.

    In the bill, an “autocycle” is defined as a “three-wheeled vehicle”
    without reference to the placement of the wheels. As such, the bill
    fails to make a proper distinction between a standard autocycle, with
    two wheels situated in the front and one wheel in the rear, and a three-
    wheeled motorcycle, with one wheel situated in the front and two in the
    rear. This flaw would allow persons operating three-wheeled motorcycles
    to do so with a Class D automobile license, rather than the more appro-
    priate Class M motorcycle license.

    Furthermore, an autocycle is inherently less safe to operate, and its
    open air design provides far less crash protection, than a standard
    automobile. Forty-eight other states require a motorcycle license or
    special endorsement to operate because an autocycle does not handle like
    an automobile. An operator would benefit from the increased instruction
    and testing necessary to pass a driver’s test for a Class M motorcycle
    license.

    For the foregoing reasons, and to maintain the current level of safety
    on our State’s roads, I am constrained to veto this bill.

    The bill is disapproved. (signed) ANDREW M. CUOMO

  • Joshua Rosen

    Member
    September 27, 2021 at 6:46 am

    In MA the last action on S2360, which is similar legislation, occurred on March 29th when it was referred to committee. I just wrote the sponsor of the bill to see what’s happening but I fear that it’s died in committee because it’s been six months.

    • Noah Blumenthal

      Member
      September 27, 2021 at 10:03 am

      Please do post here when you hear back. As a NYer with family in MA I am very interested in the legislation in both states. Thanks!

  • Lou Verner

    Member
    October 25, 2021 at 2:31 pm

    To get back to win/win perspective, whether you’re buying an Aptera to save money or because you’re interested in the environment and lowering carbon emissions, or both, you’re making smart decision!

  • Richard Tidd

    Member
    October 28, 2021 at 12:06 pm

    As if today, here is a general idea as to where the 1.75 Trillion Infrastructure bill may include for EV tax credits. If passed we will need more info as to details:

    The Biden administration aims to secure $555 billion in spending to address climate change, an amount the White House says makes the bill the biggest clean energy investment in the nation’s history. • The bulk of the clean energy measures come in the form of tax breaks for companies and consumers that install solar panels, improve the energy efficiency of buildings, and purchase electric vehicles. The EV tax credit in particular could lower the cost of such a vehicle by $12,500 for a middle-class family, according to the administration.

  • Anoop Patel

    Member
    October 28, 2021 at 7:20 pm

    Not sure if you heard but the latest spending bill proposes a 30% CREDIT FOR 3-WHEEL VEHICLES up to $7500!!!! Reference Part 4–Greening The Fleet and Alternative Vehicles Sec. 136401 (2-wheel/3-wheel EV Credit). Requires a minimum of 2.5kWh battery which I presume even the 200-mile Aptera does.

  • Richard Palmisano

    Member
    October 29, 2021 at 6:23 am

    Personally, I don’t care for any credit, let alone a lopsided credit that favors a particular manufacturer or product because of how or who put it together.

    That said, you use your funds as you see fit. There are always options to be had, if you see value in a product you buy it. If you don’t, you leave it on the shelf. Apple I-phones are very expensive, but apparently they sell like crazy because they are very good…whereas Google phones are not as good, so they don’t. People will pay for services and functionality even if it means paying more.

    • David Maddon

      Member
      October 29, 2021 at 10:27 am

      Yes, it is true I just read all 1684 pages of the actual bill not the WH statement about it.

      While I am not so arrogant to assume I couldn’t be wrong after power reading over 1600 pages in a coffee fueled information binge, my understanding is also backed up by other people who do this for a living. Also I doubt you would even qualify for the tax credit anyway. This is is about getting reliable environmentally safe cars in the hands of low income people.

      https://docs.house.gov/billsthisweek/20211025/BILLS-117HR5376RH-RCP117-17.pdf

      PART 4—GREENING THE FLEET AND ALTERNATIVE VEHICLES

      SEC. 136401. REFUNDABLE NEW QUALIFIED PLUG-IN ELEC-

      TRIC DRIVE MOTOR VEHICLE CREDIT FOR INDIVIDUALS.

      • Henry Kitt

        Member
        October 29, 2021 at 12:58 pm

        So your assessment is still $7,500 David?

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