Security features and info

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Security features and info

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Security features and info

  • Security features and info

     Mike Coffey updated 3 months ago 39 Members · 58 Posts
  • Francisco Ambrocio

    Member
    August 11, 2021 at 6:26 am

    Seeing that autopilot level 2 autonomy will be available for a premium. Will there also be a feature similar to sentry mode available? This sev will no doubt attract attention good and bad. I was thinking it will be a good idea to include this feature to all apteras.

  • Gabriel Kemeny

    Moderator
    August 11, 2021 at 7:06 am

    Features like that (along with dog mode, etc) may not be available at launch but will likely come later as the firmware for the vehicle matures.

    • Dan Roberts

      Member
      August 11, 2021 at 5:34 pm

      Gabe no offense is intended but how do you know what the initial software will include. Are surmising or do you have some communication from the company that you are passing on? Thank you in advance for the clarification.

      • Gabriel Kemeny

        Moderator
        August 11, 2021 at 5:45 pm

        I am going by trends in past vehicle launches and pressure to get the vehicle to customers. Features like that which can likely be accomplished with a future firmware update, can be left for later. Basic playback of one or more cameras is likely to be included, but full Sentry mode like functionality will likely take some development.

        • Dan Roberts

          Member
          August 11, 2021 at 6:09 pm

          Thanks Gabe. Sometimes it is confusing because I don’t think we get much technical information from the company except for the webinars which we haven’t had in a while. We are all desperate for information from the company so its nice when we know the source of information. Thank you for the clarification.

  • Daniel Crotty

    Member
    August 16, 2021 at 2:02 pm

    Software in the car can “Warn” us if we are about to hit something.

    Perhaps it should also be made to Beep if we are about to be hit. I recall watching my brother back into my car and I could not get his attention before the crunch. An Audible sound (&/or flashing lights) would get the attention of those nearby.

    I have already tried to get people interested in having at a minimum a Dash-Cam option, or at least wiring and attachments already there on delivery. These too can be turned on to capture video of an incident.

  • Len Nowak

    Moderator
    August 16, 2021 at 2:43 pm

    I have “heard” proximity sensors for the front and at least a sensor for the back were in the plans, and hope they can share “were they are in on that” in the validation (Beta) vehicle(s).

    IMHO It seems like they are focusing on the big items first ? I would hope sensors are an easy add-on???

    • kerbe2705

      Member
      April 21, 2022 at 9:29 pm

      Len, usually the sensors are “built-in” – you can see them on many vehicles as body-colored discs, about the size of a dime – usually along the front and rear bumpers and fenders.

  • Daniel Crotty

    Member
    August 16, 2021 at 4:01 pm

    I added the auto driving stuff for my order. So I “assume” the sensors will be there. What sparked this thought was my being not in the car, and someone about to hit it. So why not blast an alert. That could get annoying in a parking lot, but I would rather hear it than the sound associated with a dent I am about to make.

    At least some DashCams will start recording if something gets picked up and the car is parked.

    • Len Nowak

      Moderator
      August 16, 2021 at 4:06 pm

      Yeah… I have no idea if it is part of that or std but…. I added everything to my preorder as I do not have to commit until it turns to an order and there should be plenty of Apetrae out there before my order comes due

  • Arlen Bell

    Member
    December 2, 2021 at 12:42 pm

    Does anyone know yet what Aptera is planning regarding cameras for driver assist/self driving? I’d really like to see a camera security capability like what Tesla has. Aptera will look like nothing on the road and will attract a lot of attention. It would be good to be able to have a record of what goes on around it – driving and parked.

  • Steve Lee

    Member
    December 2, 2021 at 12:49 pm

    I completely agree with you. We need a sentry mode on this vehicle. It looks so unique that it will elicit strong feelings positive or negative.

  • Curtis Cibinel

    Member
    December 2, 2021 at 1:26 pm

    Since the vehicle has the camera’s already for rearview, mirrors and optionally forward for safetypilot (level 2) it should be possible to add in the future in software. Hopefully even if we dont have the feature day 1 we will have an infrastructure in the design that it can be added in future software update.

  • CLIFFORD WILLIAMS

    Member
    December 19, 2021 at 12:21 pm

    Related to this indicating that the car is not moving I would like to suggest that all vehicles have lights indicating stopped, slowing, accelerating, or coasting. I searched and found a patent for similar lighting system. https://patents.google.com/patent/US20060125615

  • Tim Dean

    Member
    December 19, 2021 at 1:22 pm

    Aptera engineers need to immediately contact Teledyne and look into their FLIR system for autonomy sensors which combine thermal, normal & LiDAR sensors to pierce all weather conditions and artificial intelligence. This is the future of automotive autonomy.

  • Curtis Cibinel

    Member
    December 19, 2021 at 1:51 pm

    Unfortunately being patented makes the idea that all could have such a system less likely. This is something that would need to be established by government because needing to pay license fees to install something that isnt legally required just wont happen.

  • George Hughes

    Member
    January 3, 2022 at 5:26 pm

    I agree with Curt and Dan that we expect that Apera will have a relatively stark set of main functions on launch but will be missing some of the so-called special apps that may have proven popular on Tesla, which is leading in this area.

    I would think one approach these folks – who are BTW from SCal and have been deeply associated with the tech industry – are aware of is how folks like Apple and Google have filled the app-gap by creating software development kits and offering it to a world-wide, independent app-building universe who create apps, submit them for review and security and then, with those vetted apps are offered in an online store. It is not at all unusual for app developers to be brought in with attractive terms for a new product launch. The right-to-repair credo of Aptera ought to be a market development some app developers should encourage as fulfilling the needs through open source development is their business.

    And there are lots of apps to consider.

    My contribution noted on the old board is for a “Parade” app that would set a button for an automatic stand-in-place 360 turn. I envisioned using a furniture dolly to give the rear wheel the opportunity to move through the 360 easily. As you progressed at low speed along the parade route, you’d have signage across the top attached to the open doors and every so often, like the folks on horses, you’d do a little turn-around. The app would limit speed overall to something like 15mph and would disable/lock the rear wheel with a specific protocol for the tank-turn.

    With the rear-hatch removed and a podium added, you’ve got a mobile lectern in what I consider the most engaging parade vehicle available.

  • Daniel Crotty

    Member
    April 21, 2022 at 5:33 pm

    OK! If you have any doubts about the need for Cameras

    Confronting Neighbor Who Keyed My Tesla! Cops Called!! – YouTube

    Do you think our Aptera will be less likely to get Keyed because it costs less!

    ADD the cameras! At least have an option.

    • Vernon Michael Gardner

      Member
      April 21, 2022 at 5:55 pm

      Even if Aptera is released without a camera security system, they are easy to install and a complete system with memory or cloud system costs as little as $250.00 (I just put one on my own vehicle with impact and motion detection front, rear and sides) for a 3 camera system. To do the same with the systems on the Aptera Roadster, it may interfere with present hardware and software. A self contained option is the quickest and least intrusive.

      Note: typical installs take 30-60 minutes.

  • Daniel Crotty

    Member
    April 22, 2022 at 10:18 am

    I just googled this. I had seen the number before, so I’m assuming it is correct.

    Tesla cars have<strong style=”font-family: inherit; font-size: inherit; letter-spacing: 0px;”> eight cameras around the vehicle.

    I do not know what the cost would be to install this on Aptera. Let’s say, buying bulk, they can be purchased $25, and probably a bunch less.

    Sign me up to get it factory installed. Yeah, I know more storage, blah, blah, blah. It is worth it if it catches the guy who just smashed your windows or keyed your car, or whatever. Maybe an encounter with the police!

    I want it on video.

    If I have to wait another month to get it. No problem!

    Installing a 2nd party system, myself! I don’t think you want me doing that to your car.

    • John Malcom

      Member
      April 22, 2022 at 11:39 am

      I think not in the cards from the “Factory” for the first iteration of the Aptera. Sounds like some on the forum have a DYI solution. That is inline with right to repair😁

      I have sentry mode on my Model 3 and rarely use it. City and neighborhood does not require something like a sentry mode.

      • Peter Jorgensen

        Member
        April 22, 2022 at 11:48 am

        I live in Utah… I will need a sentry mode. Lots of vehicle damage, police encounters, charging station encounters, etc. Aftermarket is fine if they don’t have it built in by the time I get mine.

  • Daniel Crotty

    Member
    April 23, 2022 at 12:44 pm

    Don’t know about you, but the aftermarket items I have seen look and perform exactly as what they are, something a DIY guy did in his garage. Does Red Green (tv show) come to mind? Break out the Duct Tape!

    But! If it is as easy to do as you say, then surely it is an easy thing to do NOW! Strap that baby on and charge $500.

    Alternative! Put some thought into it. Aptera is still in Design phase.

    Don’t be the little engine that couldn’t be bothered to go up the hill!

    Else we may end up with a something like the Honda CR-Z. “Honda only sold two new CR-Zs in 2019, down from the 28 they sold in 2018.”

    Maybe this would be a good question to ask the 16K that signed up. You want it or not.

  • Thomas Benel

    Member
    April 24, 2022 at 4:34 am

    Sentry Mode – similar to what Tesla has. Don’t know what that is – search it out in YouTube. Plenty if videos. There was a use case where a guys “neighbor” keyed his car badly, police we involved and were able to give a citation with the option to have the owner go to court – or the neighbor could settle out of court.

    Battling vandalism is huge, deterrence for theft. Factory installed and supported a HUGE plus!

  • Rashid Clark

    Member
    April 29, 2022 at 12:34 pm

    I remember seeing an interview with Chris where he stated that he likes Tesla’s sentry-mode and wants to put in Aptera. Unfortunately I didn’t save a citation link, but here’s what I wrote in my notes:
    “They are planning on having something like Tesla’s “sentry” mode (retaining camera footage useful for accidents). HOWEVER, it will not be released with it. If it happens, it will be a software update.”

  • Matthew Crawford

    Member
    June 15, 2022 at 4:09 am

    I loved seeing the electrical system testing setup in the QA yesterday, but the announcement that you’re planning to use Bluetooth with an app as an alternate unlock method raised all kinds of red flags.

    This article talks about how Tesla’s can be unlocked due to a major flaw in Bluetooth security:

    https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2022/05/new-bluetooth-hack-can-unlock-your-tesla-and-all-kinds-of-other-devices/

    You need to stop all work on using bluetooth and instead focus on implementing the Car Connectivity Consortium’s Digital Key standard. This is what Apple uses for the CarKey feature in Apple Wallet and Google also has their own implementation of this for Android. The latest version of this standard uses ultrawideband chips to allow you to unlock your car and start it just by having your phone in your pocket or a compatible smartwatch on your wrist (Like the Apple Watch). This also provides a number of useful features such as letting people share the key with family and control what the shared key can do. For example a parent could share the key with their kids, but only allow them to unlock the car and not actually start it.

    Considering the fact that you’re already using NFC cards as the regular keys and that’s part of this standard, it shouldn’t be too much more work to expand that into full use of the standard.

    More information here:

    https://global-carconnectivity.org

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by  bbelcamino.
    • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.
  • Paul Evans

    Member
    June 15, 2022 at 6:07 am

    Great catch, Matthew. I wholeheartedly agree with your position!

    I read the CCC’s whitepaper and it does support the use of Bluetooth Low Energy use in combination with Ultra Wideband for Digital Key authentication.

    I’m hoping that the electrical system testing component presentation mentioned Bluetooth as a shorthand version of the CCC Digital Key Release 3.0.

    Digital Keys and Public Key Infrastructure (PKI) concepts are difficult to explain to an average person, usually resulting in lots of exploded brains. 🤕

    I’ll email Aptera to clarify what they meant.

  • Curtis Cibinel

    Member
    June 15, 2022 at 7:17 am

    In the case of Aptera their planned solution has fairly easy way to make this attack far less practical; the sound of knocks themselves (something tesla and others don’t include). The exact timing (to a fraction of a ms thanks to ntp) can be used. Since the attacker can’t edit the message and has lag and the precise timing and relative gap in the sounds can be measured by the phone (in response to proximity so it doesn’t always record). If they use the knocks this takes the attack from somewhat tricky to largely theoretical.

    The only way I see the get around this would be a device placed on the aptera made to perform the taps with exact characteristics and the near user attacking device to also make the same sound. They could then perform the attack at an exact predetermined time which would require the autotapper on the car and the near user attacker in proximity.

    The only other Bluetooth option (beyond those mentioned in the article) for tesla / Bluetooth locks that could use is some user interaction added on the phone (or smart watch). This could be clicking a button or an authenticated voice wakeup command with os support (ie hey Google/siri unlock car).

    Nfc could also be used but this would require physically touching the device to the vehicle (like tap based payment).

  • John Smith

    Member
    June 15, 2022 at 7:39 am

    How many cars have been stolen using this method? Is this making a major problem out of something that is not a problem? Theory vs reality or possibility vs probability.

  • Brad Renninger

    Member
    June 17, 2022 at 6:38 am

    I think the security concerns of getting into the car are entirely different than those for Starting/Driving the car. If entry and driving have different authentification methods I see no issue using your phone to get into the car an not start it.

    • Curtis Cibinel

      Member
      June 17, 2022 at 8:46 am

      Hopefully the digital key features of phones expands and features can change in software. That 2nd step when inside could be “hey Google start car”. This would essentially add the voice print of Google (or Siri) to Bluetooth security. Admittedly the voice print mechanism is not the strongest but it adds two elements (just as my knock timing suggestion). Also like the knocks for optimal security a mic in the aptera could compare the exact sound waves to those of the car for even more security. Alternatively a prompt notification (optionally accessed without unlocking) would require a simple tap on the phone.

      When looking at car security in general since the introduction of the immobilizer (or secret hidden ignition control switch hacks) it has been harder to start a vehicle than enter. Going backwards would seem a mistake. A slimjim or a brick will get you into basically any car but steeling it is a bigger concern.

      • Jon Arryn

        Member
        June 17, 2022 at 8:49 am

        I don’t see how a “voice print” is any more secure, i.e. some Mission Impossible flicks, just as example. Current state of biometrics is easily hacked. Of course you could go old skool and just bust a window like Elon and his bullet-proof window CyberTruck foolery

        • Curtis Cibinel

          Member
          June 17, 2022 at 9:00 am

          Because then they need to perform everything in the Bluetooth relay hack AND stimulate the person’s voice in the location of their phone (which is not actually at the vehicle for the relay attack).

          Multifactor authentication is a recognized security best practise and its use has exploded with totp or texted codes in recent years; this approach is multifactor aswell and would similarly make effective exploits harder. If someone hacks your password and uses a stingray to get that texted code they can get into your account but the MFA measures make this far more logistically difficult to get in than either measure alone. “Secure” is a sliding scale not a binary yes/no.

      • Brad Renninger

        Member
        June 17, 2022 at 8:59 am

        I think their RFID and Bluetooth is just for entry and might only be a secondary authentification for Starting.

      • kerbe2705

        Member
        June 17, 2022 at 1:57 pm

        @Curtis Cibinel The “smart locks” on my home and garage doors request that I speak a PIN number before they will unlock/open – although ANY voice with access to my various smart speakers can lock/close them.

        • Curtis Cibinel

          Member
          June 17, 2022 at 2:01 pm

          The difference here is both the car and phone can record the input (tap timing or voice commands) and only allow access if they match exactly. The point is to avoid relay attacks and ensuring consistency handles that nicely. A backup method is always needed if it’s too most or you kill your phone.

  • Matthew Crawford

    Member
    June 17, 2022 at 4:49 pm

    One other advantage of using the Digital Key standard is that both the iPhone and Apple Watch implementation allow the phone/watch to still function as a key even after the battery is dead. It isn’t indefinitely, but it does function for several hours. An app using Bluetooth will never be capable of doing this.

    I don’t know if any Android phones have this functionality, but the advantages to using the standard are far greater than rolling your own system. Not just for the improved security, but also for the other features I mentioned, like sharing keys with kids that only allow them to unlock the door and being able to easily revoke the access at any time.

  • Tim Dean

    Member
    June 17, 2022 at 6:36 pm

    Combine with facial recognition should be very secure. The Aptera has enough cameras.

  • JOHN W. DARBY

    Member
    July 2, 2022 at 8:21 pm

    WILL THERE BE A VEHICLE ALARM SYSTEM? WILL THERE BE A VEHICLE ALARM SYSTEM?

    Will There be a Vehicle Alarm System?

    • Mike Coffey

      Member
      October 31, 2022 at 6:22 am

      the Question “…will there be a sentry system?” begins at 26:51 and Chris’ answer is “There will be”.

      • This reply was modified 3 months ago by  Mike Coffey. Reason: Correct to exact start time
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