All about the Tesla plug and chargingPosted by rbrak29 on June 15, 2022 at 9:07 pm
In yesterday’s webinar Chris Anthony praised the Tesla charging plug standard while never mentioning what plug will be on the Aptera. Will the production Aptera have a Tesla plug and therefore charge at Tesla Superchargers? Musk said he is open to have others use the Supercharger network.Rolf Brakvatne replied 6 months, 1 week ago 35 Members · 56 Replies
- 56 Replies
- MemberJune 15, 2022 at 9:25 pm
@Rolf Brakvatne Having a Tesla port does NOT guarantee access to the Supercharger network which – at present in the US – connects only to Tesla vehicles. In the EU and UK Tesla adding CCS2 connectors to its Superchargers but the connection to the vehicle is not automatic: Non-Tesla vehicles must access the system and pay through a phone app.
If Tesla adds CCS1 connectors to its Superchargers in the US and Canada for the use of non-Tesla vehicles, they will be set up the same way. If an Aptera with a Tesla port were to use a Tesla Supercharger it might very well need to use a CCS-to-Tesla adaptor and connect via the CCS1 connector.
An Aptera with a Tesla port, though, could use Tesla destination connectors, Tesla wall connectors and Tesla mobile connectors directly.
- MemberJune 16, 2022 at 5:24 am
While Chris’ point on the sleek design of the Tesla plug is clear, the plug design is not a high priority when it comes to charging. I have no concerns about getting access to Tesla’s supercharger network. I have major concerns having a closed network as the primary charging design. CCS is winning, so the car should be designed with the ugly CCS plug and I’m happy to have a Tesla adapter (But not the other way around).
- MemberJune 28, 2022 at 8:39 pm
Any deal for access to the Supercharger network would have to be irrevocable and at price parity. Imagine it being temporary only for there to be some spat a few years down the road because Musk is having a bad day. I don’t need that kind of uncertainty, and neither does Aptera the company.
- ModeratorJune 29, 2022 at 6:39 am
I am still voting for the Tesla plug AND access to the Supercharger network. Better engineering. More reliable. The stories of unreliable charging networks are everywhere, whereas Tesla’s stations hardly ever have station-wide outages. The other networks are a dog’s lunch.
- MemberJuly 7, 2022 at 3:20 pm
It should be a done deal, for the Tesla connectors then. 👌
- MemberJuly 7, 2022 at 3:53 pm
However, be prepared to pay a premium much higher than Tesla owners. I was reading the comments to that article and one commenter said he had to pay 46¢/kWh in Watertown, NY a few weeks back. I’m guessing he was at a Supercharger and must have been in a Tesla, so imagine what a non-Tesla owner would be charged.
- MemberJuly 7, 2022 at 5:05 pm
I am neutral on this subject…but I do know that there are many Tesla owners in line to purchase an APTERA, now I believe this will add more Tesla owners to the list.
I am willing to buy an adapter for my home charging. Overall it’s great news to have Tesla charging network at disposal. Even if it may be more costly, sometimes it may speed up your rout time.
- MemberJuly 7, 2022 at 7:52 pm
We already have the issue that many new fast chargers are CCS, while we have a Leaf with CHAdeMO. Tesla is adding CCS connectors for limited public use. That doesn’t mean that we can use the Tesla connector. But it does make it more likely.
- This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by Gordon Niessen.
- MemberJuly 7, 2022 at 8:08 pm
I’m Actually hoping they will introduce as a 2024 since production won’t truly start 2023.
Many manufacturers take advantage of federal laws that allow you to offer the following years model starting January 1. Since 1st models will be hand built, maybe introduce them as 2023.
- MemberJuly 8, 2022 at 11:30 am
The tesla charging plug is pretty. Prettier than the CCS plug. But, the goal is to get electrons into the battery. Plug style tyle doesn’t really make much difference to me. Reliability does. Tesla’s supercharger is reliable so having access would be nice, even if I need an adapter.
- MemberJuly 18, 2022 at 9:12 am
I understand that a lot of people think that the Tesla connector is superior. It’s certainly smaller, which would make it easier to engineer for a car like the Aptera. I’m not going to argue that point.
But petitioning Congress? How dysfunctional has Congress been lately? Not to mention – how many of you would like the House of Representatives to be setting our technology standards? 🤣🙄 (Not meant to be a partisan political statement. I’m a local elected official myself, and a scientist who’s served on scientific review panels. I can tell you that committees of elected officials aren’t the best forum for making technical decisions.)
The energy expended to “adopt” the Tesla standard makes me wonder if there was some agreement with the ever-mercurial Elon Musk that fell through. Elon gave the OK, Aptera jumped in, and now he’s changed his mind. (Maybe, two years ago, having independent car manufacturers use the Tesla plug might have helped further adoption of that standard. Now, Musk doesn’t want his 250 kW supercharger slots clogged with vehicles that only charge at 50 kW. I wouldn’t.)
Tl;dr: Is Aptera already set with design and pre-production using the Tesla plug, and would redesigning to fit the CCS standard add too much time to the already much-delayed production schedule?
- MemberJuly 18, 2022 at 10:18 am
What ever the choice in the end I will learn to adopt. My hope is that we don’t get a Tesla plug without the ability to charge my vehicle at a Tesla charger. Wouldn’t make any sense for every vehicle to carry an adapter just for making it easier for the company to implement it in its design. But saying all that, I don’t consider it Betting the Farm.
- MemberJuly 18, 2022 at 10:33 am
A petition to Congress is a feel good measure that will accomplish exactly zero. I signed the petition, why not since it’s going nowhere, mostly because I don’t want to see the government set a standard like the EU did and if they are so inclined I certainly don’t want to see CCS1 to be that standard. Charging standards should be free to evolve as technology advances.
Aptera hasn’t announced a deal with Tesla which is a bad sign, one suspects that Elon has absolutely no interest in licensing the Tesla connector to anyone. Tesla is giving lip service to opening up the Supercharger network so that they can collect the federal subsidies but my suspicion is that it will be limited to adding a CCS1 cable to the V4 Supercharger. It will only go into new locations that are receiving government funds, they won’t retrofit the existing ones and they won’t put them into any locations that they aren’t receiving taxpayer’s money for. Maybe they’ll release an adapter and maybe they won’t. They have an adapter in South Korea which allows Tesla’s to use CCS1 chargers, they’ve had it for a while but they don’t seem to be in a hurry to release it in the US, doubtful if they will be anymore enthusiastic about releasing an adapter for CCS cars to use Superchargers.
Even if they do release an adapter for CCS cars, those cars will still want to use EA where they can. Tesla has moved into the profit making phase of the Supercharger network, it’s no longer a just a cost center. I’m paying 41 cents per KWh at New England Superchargers, EA charges 31 cents per KWh. Supposedly in California the rate is much higher than it is in New England. BTW I’m not complaining about that, if they can turn a profit at Superchargers then they’ll be able to build more Superchargers.
- MemberJuly 18, 2022 at 10:56 am
I reckon it is mostly a PR stunt (that is working). I am sure they will make what hay they can out of it. They are not above a bit of hyperbole to get that.
My confidence remains high that they will still deploy the best engineering and use option in the final product and/or update it as seems prudent. Just not that big of a deal in my book.
- MemberJuly 22, 2022 at 2:50 am
Honestly, the connector’s size, weight, and shape are not an issue. For me, this is a reason that is given far too much weight in the argument for the Tesla connector. Is it smaller and sleeker? Yes. But, I have not had any physical challenge in grabbing my J1772 connector and placing it on my current vehicle. I have never thought about its weight or mass. I am not winded after making the connection. I am not standing next to my vehicle staring at it wishing it was sleeker. It is a plug. It performs its function and I don’t care about its shape/size. Of course, there is a difference in the physical parameters between all the connector plugs. But, the level of importance has been a manufactured issue from Aptera.
- MemberJuly 22, 2022 at 7:11 am
Without Superchargers there is no point in using the Tesla connector. I’m on record here with my opinion that CCS1 is a God awful kludge but the J1772 is a different story. The J1772 is about the same size as the Tesla connector, it’s a solid reliable connector. The car must have DC fast charging, without that it’s useless. If they can’t license the Tesla connector along with the Tesla communication protocol and access to the Supercharger network they will have to use CCS1. The only good thing about using CCS1 is that there are low power (62KW) CCS1 chargers all over the place. The Aptera might not be able to charge faster than that anyway and with it’s 10 mile per KWh efficiency the charging speed the Aptera should be able to get is 100 miles in 10-15 minutes (assuming a flat charging curve) which is fine, that’s about what a Tesla gets on a V2 Supercharger. There won’t be much competition for the low power CCS1 chargers because charging a 2-4 mile per KWh car will be painful at that rate, those drivers will be seeking out EA chargers and avoiding the older CCS1 chargers.
- MemberJuly 23, 2022 at 2:32 pm
99% of my charging will be done at my home. Since this is 99% of my charging, I want it to be the most convenient method, and that is the Tesla connector. For the rare 1% of the time I charge outside my home, I can easily use an adaptor (if needed).
Aptera having the Tesla connector makes sense, whether we use the Tesla charging network or not.
- MemberJuly 23, 2022 at 8:05 pm
I am only going to need fast charging when traveling on vacation. But I feel the Tesla port will fit better with the esthetics of the Aptera. If you are going to make a futuristic vehicle, you don’t want to have a cludgy CCS1 port. More EVs on the road today use the Tesla port. It is more of a standard. At $50-75 for a J1772 to Tesla adapter, I am fine with it. And I am not likely to need to need much else. I doubt I would ever need to use a CCS1 to Tesla adapter, given the better Tesla charging network.
- MemberAugust 14, 2022 at 7:17 am
With an estimated max charge rate of most packs at 50Kw, Aptera would be leaving 200Kw un-utilized (or more with version 4 superchargers on the horizon). Using a Supercharger would the equivalent of using an F1 vehicle to go shopping. You can do it, but it is a waste of potential.
That said, I have 2 teslas and an Aptera reservation so I am hoping like crazy that Tesla open up the protocol and the network, just not sure how they will implement it.
- MemberAugust 17, 2022 at 9:00 am
This should lessen some plug fears:
- MemberAugust 17, 2022 at 11:03 am
I am a Tesla owner. Now the network will be swamped when other than Tesla EV owners get an adapter and want to charge at the lower maximum rate for their EVs if they have 800V or other high charge requirements. Good for the EV industry and I guess Aptera with a Tesla plug as all Aptera owners can now use Tesla chargers. Hopefully at the same charging cost as Tesla owners pay.
Also opens up government money to Tesla they would otherwise not be qualified to apply for.
This should make Steve happy!
- MemberAugust 18, 2022 at 7:51 pm
@Jonah Jorgenson “Hopefully at the same charging cost as Tesla owners pay.” Prolly unlikely, as part of the purchase price of Tesla vehicles goes to finance the Supercharger system: The price Tesla drivers pay “at the pump” reflects the fact that they’ve already paid to use the system.
One of the Euro YouTube personalities (sorry, I forget which one) said the fee for charging a non-Tesla at a Supercharger was twice that of charging a Tesla, making the price competitive with other CCS charging networks.
- MemberAugust 17, 2022 at 5:22 pm
Right now tesla’s software for non-tesla would make the assumption all of them are CCS. New adapters will be needed if the existing network is to be opened to ccs cars. For aptera (and potentially others with tesla plug or adapters) they would likely need to further enhance the software (and potentially supercharger firmware) to address this scenario. Hopefully we don’t end up with the first few months of Aptera owners having no dcfc options while this tesla software work is addressed.
- MemberSeptember 21, 2022 at 1:55 pm
If Aptera ends up with a Tesla plug, this will be essential for those of us in regions with poor Supercharger coverage.
- MemberSeptember 21, 2022 at 2:24 pm
The really cool thing about Aptera is the speed of level 2 charging – there is a J1772 to tesla adapter that is much less expensive. I just hope Aptera will use at least a 6.6kw AC charger although, if they specified the 19.2 kw 80 amp level 2 service would add close to 200 miles to an Aptera in an hour off compatible EVSEs like this one.
The idea is that you could really proliferate the 220v charging infrastructure at a fraction of the price of CCS DC fast charging systems that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to build and configure into the grid.
The only reason for these massive 350kw DC fast chargers is so you can continue to market heavy, inefficient EVs that get 1.5 miles/kw.
The point is that with lighter, stronger, more efficient vehicles, the demands of transportation could largely solved by the proliferation of 19.2 kw capable EVSEs. These units probably cost, including wiring from existing commercial service about 1/20th the cost per charging station. If you can get 200 miles of range in an hour of charging like Aptera, that makes a lot more sense.