- MemberJune 15, 2022 at 9:07 pm
In yesterday’s webinar Chris Anthony praised the Tesla charging plug standard while never mentioning what plug will be on the Aptera. Will the production Aptera have a Tesla plug and therefore charge at Tesla Superchargers? Musk said he is open to have others use the Supercharger network.
- MemberJune 15, 2022 at 9:25 pm
@Rolf Brakvatne Having a Tesla port does NOT guarantee access to the Supercharger network which – at present in the US – connects only to Tesla vehicles. In the EU and UK Tesla adding CCS2 connectors to its Superchargers but the connection to the vehicle is not automatic: Non-Tesla vehicles must access the system and pay through a phone app.
If Tesla adds CCS1 connectors to its Superchargers in the US and Canada for the use of non-Tesla vehicles, they will be set up the same way. If an Aptera with a Tesla port were to use a Tesla Supercharger it might very well need to use a CCS-to-Tesla adaptor and connect via the CCS1 connector.
An Aptera with a Tesla port, though, could use Tesla destination connectors, Tesla wall connectors and Tesla mobile connectors directly.
- MemberJune 15, 2022 at 10:03 pm
Why would you ever put a tesla plug on a vehicle without access to the supercharger network? It seems silly to convert constantly for no reason.
The j1772 is similar to the tesla plug for level 2 and roughly as common. Using an adapter for 100% for DCFC would highlight major design flaw.Using an adapter for 100% for DCFC would highlight major design flaw. The push for the federal government to pay to install faster chargers will likely be 100% CCS (making total numbers in a few years favorable for CCS); at this point many owners of EVs with Tesla plugs may want adapters but why force Aptera owners to use them day 1 and have no native charging network at all.
- MemberJune 15, 2022 at 11:38 pm
@Curtis Cibinel At present, in the EU and UK, people have tried to use Tesla-to-CCS adaptors and they haven’t worked on Superchargers that have CCS cables. So there’s something about the handshake through the Tesla connector that will interact only with Teslas – while the CCS cables charge only via an app.
So, even though Aptera may have a Tesla port, it might very well NOT talk to Tesla Superchargers unless some sort of deal can be hammered-out. Also the Tesla port will need to be licensed from Tesla as it’s a proprietary design, used only in the Americas and Japan.
Betamax was WAY better than VHS – I think we’re looking at the same losing battle with the Tesla connector. Just imagine how many people will charge and drive off, forgetting their adaptors…
- MemberJune 15, 2022 at 11:50 pm
My thoughts exactly… To reiterate why include a Tesla plug if you don’t have a supercharger deal… Ccs isn’t ideal but is the defacto standard. Tesla to ccs adapters already exist and will become common as this standard expands with govt dollars injected.
- MemberNovember 24, 2022 at 7:44 am
The small size of Tesla’s port is the first reason Aptera wants use it. Less is more
- MemberJune 16, 2022 at 6:56 am
If they license the Tesla connector then Aptera’s will have access to the Supercharger network, that would be part of the license agreement. Obviously they won’t use a Tesla connector without Supercharger access, they aren’t idiots. We don’t know what’s going on with their negotiations, if they can’t get an agreement with Tesla then they will use CCS1.
- MemberJune 29, 2022 at 1:34 am
I agree that this is the plan. The Aptera might be the first non-Tesla EV to be able to natively Supercharge, which would likely get Aptera a lot of attention. It really is a good candidate for being first because the Aptera is super efficient, and with solar power assist many owners may only use ANY public charger once or twice a year for long trips. Ideally, I would like to see multiple plugs including the Tesla plug and CCS1/J1772, with an adapter for 110V charging. Next to that, I would be fine with the Tesla plug, and an adapter plug for all other formats, and I be equally fine with a CCS/J1772 plug, and a Tesla adapter. As long as all major plug types can connect and charge I will be happy. Aptera doesn’t have to take it upon themselves to force the plug incompatibility issue by using the Tesla plug or nothing. Broader connectivity is the key to success, and being able to access both growing charge networks (and charge at home) is a win-win choice.
- MemberJune 16, 2022 at 5:24 am
While Chris’ point on the sleek design of the Tesla plug is clear, the plug design is not a high priority when it comes to charging. I have no concerns about getting access to Tesla’s supercharger network. I have major concerns having a closed network as the primary charging design. CCS is winning, so the car should be designed with the ugly CCS plug and I’m happy to have a Tesla adapter (But not the other way around).
- MemberJune 28, 2022 at 3:34 pm
I think it would have been an easy choice to use Tesla’s connector for their DCFC during development, though I’d be very surprised if it survived to production.
1. Tesla’s connectors are small and lightweight.
2. Tesla mobile and destination chargers are everywhere.
3. Telsa parts are readily available (until recently)
When Aptera started building prototypes, those 3 advantages were exclusively tilted toward Tesla.
We assume Tesla’s plug dominance will end not too far in the future as their market share inevitably shrinks. I’d prefer the tesla connector for myself – I have Tesla chargers and I kind of loathe the CCS experience – but for Aptera, releasing product in a year with a Tesla DCFC port seems like the wrong choice.
- MemberJune 28, 2022 at 8:39 pm
Any deal for access to the Supercharger network would have to be irrevocable and at price parity. Imagine it being temporary only for there to be some spat a few years down the road because Musk is having a bad day. I don’t need that kind of uncertainty, and neither does Aptera the company.
- MemberJune 28, 2022 at 9:29 pm
One more random thought… It was mentioned, when the Yazaki partnership was introduced, that Yazaki makes charge ports and connectors but a visit to their site reveals that they make only two: J1772 and ChaDeMo.
- MemberJune 29, 2022 at 12:32 am
Wow really hope we dont get Chademo. They are rare and being phased out. This would be a real issue for long term usability for road trips.
- MemberJune 29, 2022 at 12:35 am
Can’t remember where or even if it’s true but I heard that Yazaki also make the Tesla port.
- ModeratorJune 29, 2022 at 6:39 am
I am still voting for the Tesla plug AND access to the Supercharger network. Better engineering. More reliable. The stories of unreliable charging networks are everywhere, whereas Tesla’s stations hardly ever have station-wide outages. The other networks are a dog’s lunch.
- MemberAugust 12, 2022 at 10:46 am
It’s not a good idea to compare one standard controlled exclusively by one company with a continent-wide standard supplied by many companies, its a false comparison.
In the UK we have a few companies that score very highly for reliability AND they can service every car, including Teslas!
It just doesn’t make sense to drop a 10 year old standard that everyone BUT Tesla uses just because it looks nicer. The bad companies will go out of business.
CCS1 and CCS2 are getting there – plug and play, V2G & V2H.
Don’t moan about a plug you only use for 5 seconds per time. I certainly wouldn’t want to be beholden to one company, what happens when the blacklist you (it’s happened to Tesla drivers in the US!)
- MemberAugust 12, 2022 at 11:16 am
James, some really good observations. A little more objective perhaps because you live overseas from the US.
I drive a Tesla Model 3. I full support a CCS1/CCS2 standard for charge plugs. The tech of an individual company should dictate a national standard for an industry.
- MemberAugust 13, 2022 at 6:21 am
@Jonah Jorgenson “The tech of an individual company should (not) dictate a national standard for an industry. Is that what you meant? 😉
- This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by john ockert.
- MemberAugust 13, 2022 at 6:38 am
Yes! Got it backwards in the post. Maybe a Freudian slip since I drive a Tesla
- MemberJuly 7, 2022 at 3:20 pm
It should be a done deal, for the Tesla connectors then. 👌
- MemberJuly 7, 2022 at 3:53 pm
However, be prepared to pay a premium much higher than Tesla owners. I was reading the comments to that article and one commenter said he had to pay 46¢/kWh in Watertown, NY a few weeks back. I’m guessing he was at a Supercharger and must have been in a Tesla, so imagine what a non-Tesla owner would be charged.
- MemberJuly 7, 2022 at 10:31 pm
While that is a relativity high price for charging.
(Some charging stations where the fee is applied by time, my Volt, that charges slowly, I would have had to pay two or three time the cost of gas per mile. But at least I had the option of using gas instead. )
In most EV’s today it is still less per mile, than gas in most ICE vehicles today.
In an Aptera a lot less.
- MemberJuly 8, 2022 at 5:24 am
My nearest supercharger costs 58¢/kWh, I hope Tesla lowers the cost for Tesla owners if they do charge more for other brands. I heard mention of Tesla potentially adjusting price based on time it takes to charge.
- MemberJuly 7, 2022 at 5:05 pm
I am neutral on this subject…but I do know that there are many Tesla owners in line to purchase an APTERA, now I believe this will add more Tesla owners to the list.
I am willing to buy an adapter for my home charging. Overall it’s great news to have Tesla charging network at disposal. Even if it may be more costly, sometimes it may speed up your rout time.
- MemberJuly 7, 2022 at 6:17 pm
Exactly. I am after choice. At least you know our Apteras can avail of the Tesla charging network. Where I live, there are around (20) Superchargers < 1mi from home. Now, would I go and queue in along with Teslas, on this very busy Supercharger site? Off peak with no queue ($0.29/kWh) as last resort and needed some convenience near home, yes. Higher cost of course for us Apterae/non-Teslas.
But then where I work (Los Angeles County), the 6 level parking structure has (70) J1772 stations, that are free. Majority of the stations are even unused and literally gathering dust. So I have no issues charging my Aptera. I’d likely just park at the top most level to solar charge..on free uncovered parking spaces, charging along next with the vast solar roof arrays installed.
- MemberJuly 7, 2022 at 7:52 pm
We already have the issue that many new fast chargers are CCS, while we have a Leaf with CHAdeMO. Tesla is adding CCS connectors for limited public use. That doesn’t mean that we can use the Tesla connector. But it does make it more likely.
- This reply was modified 4 months, 3 weeks ago by Gordon Niessen.
- MemberJuly 7, 2022 at 8:08 pm
I’m Actually hoping they will introduce as a 2024 since production won’t truly start 2023.
Many manufacturers take advantage of federal laws that allow you to offer the following years model starting January 1. Since 1st models will be hand built, maybe introduce them as 2023.
- MemberJuly 8, 2022 at 5:07 am
Part of Aptera’s mission/ethos is that they are all pretty much hand built, Artisan is the term they have used. About the only automation in the assembly plants is supposed to be the robot dollies to move the vehicles.
- ModeratorJuly 8, 2022 at 6:33 am
“Artisan built” sounds like the ubiquitous “hand crafted” I see on local restaurant menus. In the case of both terms, I assume the intent is to make the product sound more exclusive and attractive.
- MemberJuly 8, 2022 at 11:30 am
The tesla charging plug is pretty. Prettier than the CCS plug. But, the goal is to get electrons into the battery. Plug style tyle doesn’t really make much difference to me. Reliability does. Tesla’s supercharger is reliable so having access would be nice, even if I need an adapter.
- MemberJuly 18, 2022 at 9:12 am
I understand that a lot of people think that the Tesla connector is superior. It’s certainly smaller, which would make it easier to engineer for a car like the Aptera. I’m not going to argue that point.
But petitioning Congress? How dysfunctional has Congress been lately? Not to mention – how many of you would like the House of Representatives to be setting our technology standards? 🤣🙄 (Not meant to be a partisan political statement. I’m a local elected official myself, and a scientist who’s served on scientific review panels. I can tell you that committees of elected officials aren’t the best forum for making technical decisions.)
The energy expended to “adopt” the Tesla standard makes me wonder if there was some agreement with the ever-mercurial Elon Musk that fell through. Elon gave the OK, Aptera jumped in, and now he’s changed his mind. (Maybe, two years ago, having independent car manufacturers use the Tesla plug might have helped further adoption of that standard. Now, Musk doesn’t want his 250 kW supercharger slots clogged with vehicles that only charge at 50 kW. I wouldn’t.)
Tl;dr: Is Aptera already set with design and pre-production using the Tesla plug, and would redesigning to fit the CCS standard add too much time to the already much-delayed production schedule?
- MemberJuly 18, 2022 at 10:18 am
What ever the choice in the end I will learn to adopt. My hope is that we don’t get a Tesla plug without the ability to charge my vehicle at a Tesla charger. Wouldn’t make any sense for every vehicle to carry an adapter just for making it easier for the company to implement it in its design. But saying all that, I don’t consider it Betting the Farm.
- MemberJuly 18, 2022 at 10:33 am
A petition to Congress is a feel good measure that will accomplish exactly zero. I signed the petition, why not since it’s going nowhere, mostly because I don’t want to see the government set a standard like the EU did and if they are so inclined I certainly don’t want to see CCS1 to be that standard. Charging standards should be free to evolve as technology advances.
Aptera hasn’t announced a deal with Tesla which is a bad sign, one suspects that Elon has absolutely no interest in licensing the Tesla connector to anyone. Tesla is giving lip service to opening up the Supercharger network so that they can collect the federal subsidies but my suspicion is that it will be limited to adding a CCS1 cable to the V4 Supercharger. It will only go into new locations that are receiving government funds, they won’t retrofit the existing ones and they won’t put them into any locations that they aren’t receiving taxpayer’s money for. Maybe they’ll release an adapter and maybe they won’t. They have an adapter in South Korea which allows Tesla’s to use CCS1 chargers, they’ve had it for a while but they don’t seem to be in a hurry to release it in the US, doubtful if they will be anymore enthusiastic about releasing an adapter for CCS cars to use Superchargers.
Even if they do release an adapter for CCS cars, those cars will still want to use EA where they can. Tesla has moved into the profit making phase of the Supercharger network, it’s no longer a just a cost center. I’m paying 41 cents per KWh at New England Superchargers, EA charges 31 cents per KWh. Supposedly in California the rate is much higher than it is in New England. BTW I’m not complaining about that, if they can turn a profit at Superchargers then they’ll be able to build more Superchargers.
- MemberJuly 18, 2022 at 10:56 am
I reckon it is mostly a PR stunt (that is working). I am sure they will make what hay they can out of it. They are not above a bit of hyperbole to get that.
My confidence remains high that they will still deploy the best engineering and use option in the final product and/or update it as seems prudent. Just not that big of a deal in my book.
- MemberJuly 21, 2022 at 11:13 pm
I want a Tesla connector on my aptera whether we can us the Tesla charging network or not. Here is why. Over 90% of people charge their vehicle at their home, including me. Which is more convenient for me to use – a light weight and small Tesla connector, or a heavy and large J1772 connector? Which will be easier for your wife to use? Remember, this is where the vast majority of people will be doing the vast majority of their charging.
For those rare occasions I may need to charge at a charger using the J1772 plug, there is no problem – I can use a simple adaptor. This is no problem and the convenience of using the smaller and lightweight Tesla connector is well worth it. Think of your wife. She will thank you.
Some people confuse the connector with the charger. Having a Tesla connector does not rule out using other chargers utilizing the J1772, because the above mentioned adaptor will take care of this. Perhaps Aptera Motors will include one.
- MemberJuly 21, 2022 at 11:26 pm
They better plan on including a CCS adapter (not just Tesla to J1772) because having absolutely no DCFC options kinda cripples the vehicle for many people. I’ll need one immediately as I pick it up as I plan to drive it back home and this is not uncommon from other people’s comments. They shouldn’t make long range travel more difficult just to have a slightly smaller home charging plug.
- MemberJuly 21, 2022 at 11:31 pm
@Pistonboy Delux Have you ever held a j1773 connector? There is, literally, no perceivable difference in weight between it and a Tesla connector – and they are very nearly the same length and girth.
Perhaps you mean the CCS1 DC connector? THAT can be a bulky and ungainly beast to manipulate.
Take note that the “simple adaptor” that allows a Tesla to connect to a CCS1 charger weighs about 3 lbs. and costs $400 (Although Tesla has not started selling them in North America).
The adapter that allows a Tesla to charge from a J1772 EVSE weighs less than a pound and goes for only $50.
- MemberJuly 22, 2022 at 2:50 am
Honestly, the connector’s size, weight, and shape are not an issue. For me, this is a reason that is given far too much weight in the argument for the Tesla connector. Is it smaller and sleeker? Yes. But, I have not had any physical challenge in grabbing my J1772 connector and placing it on my current vehicle. I have never thought about its weight or mass. I am not winded after making the connection. I am not standing next to my vehicle staring at it wishing it was sleeker. It is a plug. It performs its function and I don’t care about its shape/size. Of course, there is a difference in the physical parameters between all the connector plugs. But, the level of importance has been a manufactured issue from Aptera.
- MemberJuly 22, 2022 at 4:54 am
They have to make enough room for a CCS2 connector if they want to sell it in Europe.
Nobody, even Tesla, uses the “US Tesla” connector, you only have CCS2 (and Type 2 of course). A US Tesla connector will not make any sense in Europe, even less with an adapter.
When charging on a fast charger, you only have CCS2 (even at Tesla superchargers) or Type2 connectors. And at home, you only have a Type 2 connector, and they are very lightwheight and easy to use.
The only think nice on the US Tesla connector is that they include a switch that you can press to unlock the connector.
At home, in my Ioniq, you must unlock the car to unlock the charge connector. In my MG ZS, you have to start the car an press unlock charge port to unlock the charge connector and this is not convenient.
In a supercharger, it is unlocked when you stop the charge on the charger, so no problem.
So it is not a Type2 problem and more a car design problem.
It would be nice if Aptera includes a button near the charge port to easily unlock the charge connector.
- MemberJuly 22, 2022 at 6:23 am
If your preference is a lightweight & small plug, why not just use a 110V plug? With Aptera you can get nearly 100 miles overnight from a 110V. During the day it should be in the driveway soaking up the sun.
- ModeratorJuly 22, 2022 at 6:39 am
Good point, Jonathan. Aptera is estimated to get 150 miles of range from an overnight 110v charge. That will be sufficient for some of us.
- MemberJuly 22, 2022 at 8:07 am
I like that idea. Just a dumb 110V port with all the of electrronics are inside the car to control the charging. It could be as simple as a door you flip open and put the end of an extension cord into it. It probably should be a twist-lock connector so it doesn’t pull out. Only thing is it would have to be dual voltage (110V or 240V), dual frequency (50 or 60 Hz) so that the car can be sold globally with no real differences.
- MemberJuly 22, 2022 at 8:46 am
Honestly that is basically what J1772 (or the AC fuctionality of the Tesla plug) is for – why buck the norm on trivial details. <font face=”inherit”>Having a port on the car requires male pins on the vehicle which would require a deep charge area. Electrical codes are also changing in the US making GFI mandatory for EV charging so they will strongly discourage using especially Nema 14-50 as a cheaper alternative to a proper EVSE. Note: If you put two GFIs inline they will often </font>interfere<font face=”inherit”> and trip needlessly.</font>
- MemberJuly 22, 2022 at 7:11 am
Without Superchargers there is no point in using the Tesla connector. I’m on record here with my opinion that CCS1 is a God awful kludge but the J1772 is a different story. The J1772 is about the same size as the Tesla connector, it’s a solid reliable connector. The car must have DC fast charging, without that it’s useless. If they can’t license the Tesla connector along with the Tesla communication protocol and access to the Supercharger network they will have to use CCS1. The only good thing about using CCS1 is that there are low power (62KW) CCS1 chargers all over the place. The Aptera might not be able to charge faster than that anyway and with it’s 10 mile per KWh efficiency the charging speed the Aptera should be able to get is 100 miles in 10-15 minutes (assuming a flat charging curve) which is fine, that’s about what a Tesla gets on a V2 Supercharger. There won’t be much competition for the low power CCS1 chargers because charging a 2-4 mile per KWh car will be painful at that rate, those drivers will be seeking out EA chargers and avoiding the older CCS1 chargers.
- MemberJuly 22, 2022 at 8:32 am
One more thing about using the Tesla connectors. Aptera will need to negotiate a perpetual, irrevocable and transferable license that includes all future versions of the Tesla charging standard (hardware and software) and all future versions of Superchargers and which specifies the schedule for licensing fees. Without those provisions in the license Aptera will be vulnerable to changes of heart at Tesla. I’ve seen this happen. In the 90s Apple was licensing MacOS to other companies. I was consulting to company that made graphics boards for Macs, they licensed MacOS for a file server they were building. When Steve Jobs came back he terminated all of the licenses leaving all the companies that were building Mac compatible computers high and dry.
- This reply was modified 4 months, 1 week ago by Joshua Rosen.
- MemberJuly 22, 2022 at 11:33 am
Because the Macintosh clones were undercutting sales of Apple’s Macintosh computers. Could the same thing happen with Aptera undercutting Tesla sales? I doubt it since the markets are very different. Tesla business plan is for upscale, expensive, luxury EVs, while Aptera is initially aimed at the low end of the market.
- MemberJuly 22, 2022 at 12:02 pm
What Tesla has in common with Apple is a mercurial ego driven CEO. Jobs killed Mac clones on day one when he came back. A guy who worked at a client of mine told me a story about how he was in a elevator with Steve Jobs with a prototype of a new printer on a cart. Jobs looked over at the cart, said “we still make those?. That afternoon the the whole printer department was fired. Musk is the same sort of guy, think about the Twitter deal. Musk gets up in the middle of the night and offers to buy Twitter for $40B. A few day’s later he swings from his manic phase to his depressive phase and realizes what he’s done. He announces a 10% layoff at Tesla and starts to find a way out of the Twitter deal. You can’t count on good intentions, you have to have it in writing. Aptera would need an iron clad contract the covers all of the contingencies. BTW my guess is that’s why a deal will probably be impossible. Aptera can’t commit to the Tesla connector unless they can count on being able to use it forever. They also need to have their license transferable in case they sell the company. From Tesla’s point of view it’s the transferability that would be the problem. Even if they don’t see Aptera as competition they have to worry that some Chinese company would come along and buy Aptera and inherent the license.