MemberJuly 21, 2022 at 11:13 pm
I want a Tesla connector on my aptera whether we can us the Tesla charging network or not. Here is why. Over 90% of people charge their vehicle at their home, including me. Which is more convenient for me to use – a light weight and small Tesla connector, or a heavy and large J1772 connector? Which will be easier for your wife to use? Remember, this is where the vast majority of people will be doing the vast majority of their charging.
For those rare occasions I may need to charge at a charger using the J1772 plug, there is no problem – I can use a simple adaptor. This is no problem and the convenience of using the smaller and lightweight Tesla connector is well worth it. Think of your wife. She will thank you.
Some people confuse the connector with the charger. Having a Tesla connector does not rule out using other chargers utilizing the J1772, because the above mentioned adaptor will take care of this. Perhaps Aptera Motors will include one.
MemberJuly 21, 2022 at 11:26 pm
They better plan on including a CCS adapter (not just Tesla to J1772) because having absolutely no DCFC options kinda cripples the vehicle for many people. I’ll need one immediately as I pick it up as I plan to drive it back home and this is not uncommon from other people’s comments. They shouldn’t make long range travel more difficult just to have a slightly smaller home charging plug.
MemberJuly 21, 2022 at 11:31 pm
@Pistonboy Delux Have you ever held a j1773 connector? There is, literally, no perceivable difference in weight between it and a Tesla connector – and they are very nearly the same length and girth.
Perhaps you mean the CCS1 DC connector? THAT can be a bulky and ungainly beast to manipulate.
Take note that the “simple adaptor” that allows a Tesla to connect to a CCS1 charger weighs about 3 lbs. and costs $400 (Although Tesla has not started selling them in North America).
The adapter that allows a Tesla to charge from a J1772 EVSE weighs less than a pound and goes for only $50.
MemberJuly 22, 2022 at 2:50 am
Honestly, the connector’s size, weight, and shape are not an issue. For me, this is a reason that is given far too much weight in the argument for the Tesla connector. Is it smaller and sleeker? Yes. But, I have not had any physical challenge in grabbing my J1772 connector and placing it on my current vehicle. I have never thought about its weight or mass. I am not winded after making the connection. I am not standing next to my vehicle staring at it wishing it was sleeker. It is a plug. It performs its function and I don’t care about its shape/size. Of course, there is a difference in the physical parameters between all the connector plugs. But, the level of importance has been a manufactured issue from Aptera.
MemberJuly 22, 2022 at 4:54 am
They have to make enough room for a CCS2 connector if they want to sell it in Europe.
Nobody, even Tesla, uses the “US Tesla” connector, you only have CCS2 (and Type 2 of course). A US Tesla connector will not make any sense in Europe, even less with an adapter.
When charging on a fast charger, you only have CCS2 (even at Tesla superchargers) or Type2 connectors. And at home, you only have a Type 2 connector, and they are very lightwheight and easy to use.
The only think nice on the US Tesla connector is that they include a switch that you can press to unlock the connector.
At home, in my Ioniq, you must unlock the car to unlock the charge connector. In my MG ZS, you have to start the car an press unlock charge port to unlock the charge connector and this is not convenient.
In a supercharger, it is unlocked when you stop the charge on the charger, so no problem.
So it is not a Type2 problem and more a car design problem.
It would be nice if Aptera includes a button near the charge port to easily unlock the charge connector.
MemberJuly 22, 2022 at 6:23 am
If your preference is a lightweight & small plug, why not just use a 110V plug? With Aptera you can get nearly 100 miles overnight from a 110V. During the day it should be in the driveway soaking up the sun.
ModeratorJuly 22, 2022 at 6:39 am
Good point, Jonathan. Aptera is estimated to get 150 miles of range from an overnight 110v charge. That will be sufficient for some of us.
MemberJuly 22, 2022 at 8:07 am
I like that idea. Just a dumb 110V port with all the of electrronics are inside the car to control the charging. It could be as simple as a door you flip open and put the end of an extension cord into it. It probably should be a twist-lock connector so it doesn’t pull out. Only thing is it would have to be dual voltage (110V or 240V), dual frequency (50 or 60 Hz) so that the car can be sold globally with no real differences.
MemberJuly 22, 2022 at 8:46 am
Honestly that is basically what J1772 (or the AC fuctionality of the Tesla plug) is for – why buck the norm on trivial details. <font face=”inherit”>Having a port on the car requires male pins on the vehicle which would require a deep charge area. Electrical codes are also changing in the US making GFI mandatory for EV charging so they will strongly discourage using especially Nema 14-50 as a cheaper alternative to a proper EVSE. Note: If you put two GFIs inline they will often </font>interfere<font face=”inherit”> and trip needlessly.</font>
MemberJuly 22, 2022 at 7:11 am
Without Superchargers there is no point in using the Tesla connector. I’m on record here with my opinion that CCS1 is a God awful kludge but the J1772 is a different story. The J1772 is about the same size as the Tesla connector, it’s a solid reliable connector. The car must have DC fast charging, without that it’s useless. If they can’t license the Tesla connector along with the Tesla communication protocol and access to the Supercharger network they will have to use CCS1. The only good thing about using CCS1 is that there are low power (62KW) CCS1 chargers all over the place. The Aptera might not be able to charge faster than that anyway and with it’s 10 mile per KWh efficiency the charging speed the Aptera should be able to get is 100 miles in 10-15 minutes (assuming a flat charging curve) which is fine, that’s about what a Tesla gets on a V2 Supercharger. There won’t be much competition for the low power CCS1 chargers because charging a 2-4 mile per KWh car will be painful at that rate, those drivers will be seeking out EA chargers and avoiding the older CCS1 chargers.
MemberJuly 22, 2022 at 8:32 am
One more thing about using the Tesla connectors. Aptera will need to negotiate a perpetual, irrevocable and transferable license that includes all future versions of the Tesla charging standard (hardware and software) and all future versions of Superchargers and which specifies the schedule for licensing fees. Without those provisions in the license Aptera will be vulnerable to changes of heart at Tesla. I’ve seen this happen. In the 90s Apple was licensing MacOS to other companies. I was consulting to company that made graphics boards for Macs, they licensed MacOS for a file server they were building. When Steve Jobs came back he terminated all of the licenses leaving all the companies that were building Mac compatible computers high and dry.
- This reply was modified 2 weeks, 3 days ago by Joshua Rosen.
MemberJuly 22, 2022 at 11:33 am
Because the Macintosh clones were undercutting sales of Apple’s Macintosh computers. Could the same thing happen with Aptera undercutting Tesla sales? I doubt it since the markets are very different. Tesla business plan is for upscale, expensive, luxury EVs, while Aptera is initially aimed at the low end of the market.
MemberJuly 22, 2022 at 12:02 pm
What Tesla has in common with Apple is a mercurial ego driven CEO. Jobs killed Mac clones on day one when he came back. A guy who worked at a client of mine told me a story about how he was in a elevator with Steve Jobs with a prototype of a new printer on a cart. Jobs looked over at the cart, said “we still make those?. That afternoon the the whole printer department was fired. Musk is the same sort of guy, think about the Twitter deal. Musk gets up in the middle of the night and offers to buy Twitter for $40B. A few day’s later he swings from his manic phase to his depressive phase and realizes what he’s done. He announces a 10% layoff at Tesla and starts to find a way out of the Twitter deal. You can’t count on good intentions, you have to have it in writing. Aptera would need an iron clad contract the covers all of the contingencies. BTW my guess is that’s why a deal will probably be impossible. Aptera can’t commit to the Tesla connector unless they can count on being able to use it forever. They also need to have their license transferable in case they sell the company. From Tesla’s point of view it’s the transferability that would be the problem. Even if they don’t see Aptera as competition they have to worry that some Chinese company would come along and buy Aptera and inherent the license.
MemberJuly 22, 2022 at 10:35 am
I can tell by your name you’ve come a bit late to the electrification party since if you were a legacy EV user of the musky kind, you’d already have the Level 2 Tesla EVSE.
Being an EV fanboy with a Spark EV and Gen 1 Volt in the stable; I’m just fine with a J1772 connector on Aptera because I’ve already got the home-charging setup.
Fact is, I’m more concerned if Diego is going to stuff a 3.3kw or 6.6kw (or larger) onboard level 2 charger. I think my EVSE – its been like four-years since installation – is on a 50 amp circuit and at least capable of fully juicing a 6.6kw L2 charging connection. Of course I’ve never used it as both the Chevy’s onboard chargers are limited to the s…l…o…w 3.3kw rate with the shorthand capability of adding, at 10.0 mi per kwh, over 250 miles in an 8-hour overnight session.
The use of a 6.6kw (or larger) onboard L2 charger whether of the Tesla or J1772 variety would literally double that to over 500 miles of charging from a 240v EVSE in an overnight 8-hr session.
Considering I’ve already got a capable EVSE with a J1772 connector, I’m okay if Aptera uses that approach but would consider adding another EVSE for the Tesla connector if it offered an elegant V2H or V2G connection. Given the circuit that powers the EVSE is more than capable of charging maybe three 3.3kw equipped EVs, if the Tesla connector/EVSE provided interactive connections, I might add a second EVSE (right now we can charge both EVs – one at 110 and the other at 220v – during low TOU rates).
My point is best understood when you grasp that from the old days of computing, I’ve been in the open standards camp and chose PC’s over Mac’s because I detest proprietary models. To me any closed system is doomed because its path through time is subtly limited. Evolution requires a greater degree of chaos to work.
This mindset results in a slight aversion to all things Tesla with my proof being I’ve never had an ‘i-phone, pad, or whatever else. The origins come from the geo-cultural influence of working in media and advertising in, at least what was the knock-off furniture making capitol – Fort Smith, AR in the ’70s and ’80’s.
I’d also point out the observations of Nikki on Transport Evolved when she talked about the suburban, exurban, rural markets for EVs. This is my use case and the key understanding is that the distances are greater for folks living in both the extended suburbs and rural areas.
Given these more rural areas have less reliable electric services, the proliferation of TOU utility rates and other factors make customers from these areas open to the cost savings possible, say when you use your vehicle to take your abode off the grid during top rate times. The savings from this kind of use would certainly pay for the earlier replacement time for the batteries — ten years instead of 20 — and create a replacement market for newer, more capable, even cheaper batteries.
If adopting the Tesla plug by Aptera or, as management suggests, making it the USA standard, I’m all for it. If it includes V2H capabilities, it will make Aptera a must have in suburban and rural areas, thanks in large part to the federal government’s creation of rural electric co-ops through FDRs REA program. The following is from the REA energy co-op website:
Take a minute and imagine what your life would be like without electricity. Then think about what rural areas throughout Pennsylvania must have been like without electricity 75+ years ago. Before 1935 electricity was available only to people who lived in or near cities or larger towns. In fact many people believed that farm families did not want – or even need – electricity. Things began to change rapidly, however, when President Franklin D. Roosevelt signed an executive order on May 11, 1935, creating the Rural Electrification Administration (REA), a branch of the U.S. Department of Agriculture charged with lending money to help get electricity to rural areas. Private companies could see little profit in rural areas. It wasn’t long before neighbors joined together to create nonprofit cooperatives in their area; cooperatives could borrow money from REA to build electrical systems.
MemberJuly 22, 2022 at 1:49 pm
As a tangent from the topic at hand, the REA looks like a decent model to promote rural internet access.
MemberJuly 22, 2022 at 5:08 pm
The jury is still out on 3.3kw vs. some other level of charging for production Aptere. If weight and cost are truly factors (I hope they are) then it will be 3.3kw which is more than adequate for the efficient Aptera. Even the 110 plug is adequate especially with full solar.
As a long time engineer (Old) I vigorously support standards. I see no future for the current version of the Tesla plug even for Tesla. (I use one for my Model 3) Aptera efforts to make it a national standard are concerning to me. They are good engineers and should know better.
In the end, the onboard charger and the charge plug selection are down in the nits for me. I have no problem living with the final choices in either case because the Aptera is such an overall amazing vehicle.
MemberJuly 22, 2022 at 6:19 pm
@John Malcom When they decide that Aptera MUST have an 8-track player, THEN I’m gonna start worrying! 🤣
MemberJuly 22, 2022 at 9:33 pm
What about a 4-track player, or even a 45 player?
MemberJuly 23, 2022 at 6:22 pm
@Dennis Swaney Perhaps you’re too young to know but, before the advent of reliable audio cassettes, the prerecorded 8-track tape cartridge player was the audio device of choice in many vehicles. Of course no one called them “8-track tape cartridge players” – common nomenclature was, simply, “8-track”.
MemberJuly 23, 2022 at 7:16 pm
Ah, I REMEMBER the PRECURSORS to the 8-Track cartridge: the 4-Track, and before that the 45 record player. In my high school electronics class, we worked on one of the 45 players. Since this was 55 years ago, I can’t recall if we were successful or not.
The main physical difference between the 4 & 8 tracks, was the 4 had a large hole in the bottom of the cartridge for, IIRC, the pinch roller. The 8 track was developed from the 4 track and eliminated that hole. Remember “Mad Man” Muntz? He popularized the 4-track as the “Stereo-Pak”. Bill Lear of LearJet fame developed the “Stereo 8” cartridge with an integral pinch roller from the 4 track; by the end of the 60s, the 4-track was dead as the DoDo.
- This reply was modified 2 weeks, 1 day ago by Dennis Swaney.
MemberJuly 22, 2022 at 9:36 pm
Good engineers made the BetaMax; so-so engineers made VHS. Good quality lost to so-so “its’ good enough to get by” thinking and design.
MemberJuly 23, 2022 at 2:32 pm
99% of my charging will be done at my home. Since this is 99% of my charging, I want it to be the most convenient method, and that is the Tesla connector. For the rare 1% of the time I charge outside my home, I can easily use an adaptor (if needed).
Aptera having the Tesla connector makes sense, whether we use the Tesla charging network or not.
MemberJuly 23, 2022 at 8:05 pm
I am only going to need fast charging when traveling on vacation. But I feel the Tesla port will fit better with the esthetics of the Aptera. If you are going to make a futuristic vehicle, you don’t want to have a cludgy CCS1 port. More EVs on the road today use the Tesla port. It is more of a standard. At $50-75 for a J1772 to Tesla adapter, I am fine with it. And I am not likely to need to need much else. I doubt I would ever need to use a CCS1 to Tesla adapter, given the better Tesla charging network.
MemberJuly 23, 2022 at 8:57 pm
I believe the wrong criteria for selecting the type of charging plug is “Aesthetic fit”.
More appropriate would be compliance with a standard that has legs and will be in place for a long time and one that is being adopted by all other EV manufacturers for US sales regardless of country of manufacture. And of course, compliant with the government preferred protocol that will be using $ 7B to build out the US charging infrastructure. Also the one Tesla will now be adding to their charging network, CCS.
I drive a Tesla and still feel this way.
MemberJuly 23, 2022 at 9:34 pm
@Gordon Niessen Although Tesla Superchargers have more individual dispensers than there are CCS dispensers, there are nearly twice as many CCS charging SITES in the US and Canada.
I’d feel better having more options when traveling, not limiting my charging opportunities to one “brand”: The CCS1-Tesla adaptor is large, heavy and expensive, and those who’ve used them say that they are none too easy to connect – and keep connected – to the vehicle.
Adapters of any stripe are just another link in the “potential failure” chain…
MemberJuly 24, 2022 at 8:17 am