The reason for 1000 miles

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions The reason for 1000 miles

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions The reason for 1000 miles

  • The reason for 1000 miles

     Joshua Rosen updated 2 weeks, 1 day ago 11 Members · 15 Posts
  • francois kilchoer

    Member
    June 14, 2022 at 2:38 pm

    During the June 14 webinar, a Dutch participant queried about the timing for the 1000 miler delivery. Steve Fambro was wondering where you would drive from Holland for 1000 miles.

    I see a lot of comments about “You don’t need the 1000 mile range”, or “you can’t drive 1000 miles straight because…” (safety, coffee/pee break, stretching, take your pick). As you might guess, I ordered a 1000 miler, and I’d like to give some reasons why people might want to genuinely choose a 1000 mile range Aptera, besides the “I drive a lot per week”.

    I my case at least, and I suspect it might be the same for the Dutch participant, it isn’t so much the 1000 mile range, as the sun ! I’m in Switzerland, and the simple fact is that we just don’t get the sunshine that southern California gets. “Up to” 40 miles recharge per day ? Depending on the year, we might get a total of 40 miles recharge for the entire month of January. It’s not that we want to make 1000 miles on any single trip – it’s more we want the capacity to be able to have more driving time between available sunny days.

    In addition, here in Switzerland most people rent. And although we’re starting to see more charging stations in parking areas and shopping malls, supply is becoming tight with the demand/mandate for electric cars. And running a cable from your apartment on the 7th floor to your car parked on the other side of the street isn’t an option. So, once again, the additional batteries is not so much for the miles as it is for the time between necessary charging.

    As for the second main reason, and to answer Steve, the trip from Amsterdam to, say, Monaco and the French riviera through Switzerland (avoiding the expensive French toll roads) is an important yearly Dutch pilgrimage ๐Ÿ˜‰ (at least, judging from the number of Dutch licensed vehicles we see going through Switzerland, starting from Easter throughout the summer). And that trip is just under 1000 miles one way…

    Third (and last, for now…) fuel here is the equivalent of about $9 a gallon right now… With my usual driving here, the 1000 mile Aptera would mean I would never need to re-fuel again ๐Ÿ™So I’d go from about $2000 a year on fuel to $0…

  • Peter Jorgensen

    Member
    June 14, 2022 at 3:18 pm

    You have a really good point I’ve never thought of.

    If you have a week of sun then two weeks of darkness the big battery has enough capacity to “carry” you through the two weeks of darkness to the next week of sun. I think I’d rather have this in a powerwall that my Aptera charges up then I can use to charge my Aptera, but if you’re renting, not really much choice. Maybe a powerwall trailer?

  • Curtis Cibinel

    Member
    June 14, 2022 at 3:33 pm

    If you rent you often would not be allowed to have a trailer in the parking lot (especially if its full of batteries) and the Aptera likely would never be able to tow it to charge them up. Powerwalls (and non-Tesla competitors) are also stupidly overpriced for the amount of storage they provide.

    For renters the use case of a huge battery is somewhat legitimate but hopefully as more level 2/3 charging options become available this will be less critical. If you can plug in for 30-40 minutes reliably every time you get groceries or similar (even at 3.3kw level 2) then the combination of this and solar will reduce the frequency you need to charge at DCFC.

    Obviously the 1000 mile will be heavier and less agile than the smaller packs. It really surprises me how aggressive Aptera has been trying to make this halo model economical. Based on the recent announcement of the specific EVE cell in the webinar and layout speculations from Aptera Owners club the following is my calculations on battery sizes and costs. I found the exact EVE cells and reduced the bulk retail price by 15% (Aptera will be buying far more than 5000 cells and wont go through resellers like Alibaba); this should be reasonably close to accurate. It looks like Aptera is making virtually no additional profit by selling bigger packs (additional price barely covers cell costs). This approach is obviously rough values could be either low or high but are probably +-10%.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Tuu7avKH2dS_JPk7aiP2av09a1f1WE0OvvNH6fdHpiQ/edit#gid=1285203539

  • Hee-Choon Lee

    Member
    June 14, 2022 at 5:16 pm

    I am a recent EV owner/operator and made a 1000 mile drive the very first day of taking ownership of my EV. Thereafter, I have had to DC fast charge only once on a 300 mile round trip and all else has been local around the home base. My initial Aptera order was for 1000 mile battery but the ease and rapidity of charging my current EV on that first long drive allowed me to change to the 400 mile version, mostly to get my Aptera sooner than later ๐Ÿ™‚ Another reason for the change is to be more efficient. However, I did not go for the 250 mile version for the very reasons you list for your 1000 mile battery choice. I like to have a reserve for the cold days and unforeseen trips that may take me beyond the minimum range. However, I have been encouraged by recent expansion in rapid charging station availability and given no natural or manmade disaster that knocks out the electric grid, long distance trips in EVs are becoming less and less of a concern.

    I am also willing to give a pass to the co-CEOs’ off the cuff thinking out loud on live stream that may have slighted the 1000 mile spec pre-order holders. I am willing to give them credit for the fact that they made the 1000 mile version available as evidence of their understanding of your particular situation. I just hope and pray that they will get the Aptera out on the streets all over the world, sooner than later ๐Ÿ™‚

    • Bob Kirchner

      Member
      June 14, 2022 at 6:17 pm

      @Hee-Choon Lee:

      Just yesterday I set out on a 600 km drive (second day of a 1300 km drive, not in an EV ). That 600 km drive suddenly turned into an 800 km drive when I found out I had left this laptop in the motel.

      I, too, will want to have an EV with a bit of range in reserve!

      • John Voules

        Member
        June 14, 2022 at 7:27 pm

        I donโ€™t see it mentioned hereโ€ฆ.not having to recharge your batteries as often also has a nice benefit of longer battery life. Urban apartment dwellers who may park outdoors and would not have to charge for weeks at a time (maybe months) is an awesome convenience. Hard to understand why people would criticize why a person would want a vehicle that they might think isnโ€™t needed. Individuals should truly concern themselves for what is best for themselves and their situation.

        • Philip Sandiford

          Member
          June 15, 2022 at 4:00 am

          I compromised fun/load capacity v. larger battery because fewer charging cycles means longer battery longevity, all things equal. (600 miles)

    • francois kilchoer

      Member
      June 15, 2022 at 1:03 am

      “I am also willing to give a pass to the co-CEOsโ€™ off the cuff thinking
      out loud on live stream that may have slighted the 1000 mile spec
      pre-order holders.”

      I hope that I haven’t slighted Steve either ๐Ÿ˜‰, because they are doing a terrific job !

  • Paul Carlucci

    Member
    June 14, 2022 at 9:37 pm

    I’m ok with the 250 mile range battery but picked 400 because I want to reduce the number of battery cycles and get a longer lifetime out of the pack.

  • seth feldman

    Member
    June 14, 2022 at 11:08 pm

    and being the last group to start shipping, means more time for bugs to get worked out, and to receive customer feed back from the early guinea pigs…

    • Philip Sandiford

      Member
      June 15, 2022 at 4:04 am

      Eg-O-pinion: and the deposit is only $70USD for most of us. Which means; no great loss when they run out of capital before you car is built. ๐Ÿ˜ƒ

  • Joshua Rosen

    Member
    June 15, 2022 at 7:31 am

    For people with no access to home charging I would think that you would want to choose the most efficient variant which is definitely not the 1000 mile version which is hundreds of pounds heavier unless they make the DC charging rate for 1000 mile version higher than it will be for the lower range versions. If you are counting on the sun for your power then you’ll want to get every femtometer per photon that you can get, and if you have to use DC chargers likewise you want to minimize your time at chargers. Assuming that the DC charging will be limited to 60KW then charging a 100KWh battery will take several hours, it would be better to limit your charging sessions to 200miles/300Km, which should be doable in 20-30 minutes, and get a smaller battery.

    For people with home charging the equation is different and the optimal choice will depend on your use pattern. I’ve ordered the 600 mile version because almost all of my mileage is Saturday day trips which never exceed 450 miles and I want the freedom to not have to plan our stops around Superchargers. For people who take less frequent road trips the 400 mile variant would be the sweet spot, and indeed they said that 60% of there orders are for the 400 mile version. With 400 miles all of your local driving is on home electricity and most day trips also, for longer trips it will charge fast enough so that you can add 100 miles at a quick stop.

    The place for the 1000 mile version is for people who want to cross charging deserts. I was looking at the Tesla Supercharger Map the other day to see where they still have charging deserts and unsurprisingly they are in actual deserts. You can cross Nevada on the Interstates easily but you can’t go across the central part of the state, they have no Superchargers there and the distances are vast. The 1000 mile Aptera is the only EV that could possibly make a trip like that.

    • Jonah Jorgenson

      Member
      June 15, 2022 at 9:43 am

      Your own thoughts and criteria here I guess.

      I think that when someone reserves a particular variant of the Aptera, regardless of which one it is, they have thought through their own use case, and have selected the one that fits best based on their own list of criteria.

      Nothing wrong with selecting a 1,000 mile variant if their criteria and use case say that is the way to go. No reason to disparage that selection, or suggest it is not rational or valid.

      Nice to see you feel crossing a desert is a valid use case. ๐Ÿ˜

      • Joshua Rosen

        Member
        June 16, 2022 at 9:56 am

        I haven’t disparaged anyone, I have no objection to anyone ordering the 1000 mile version. I’m just pointing out some criteria that they might not have considered. Everyone has to make the decision for themselves but they should consider all of the tradeoffs. There are real downsides to bigger batteries, weight, charging time, cost and space. The 1000 mile battery in particular is going to eat cargo space in addition to adding hundreds of pounds of weight. If you live in a place where there are no chargers then those tradeoffs are well worth it, it can be the difference between being able to road trip the car and not, but if you live some place where charging is readily available then it’s my opinion that there is very little upside and the downsides are large.

        What the thousand mile battery won’t do for you that the smaller batteries won’t is make driving in January any more convenient. At best the OP is likely to get in winter is 10 miles per day of energy, that’s only 300 miles per month, in summer they are only claiming 20 miles per day in non-sunny climates, that’s still only 600 miles per month. If you let the 1000 mile car sit stationary for the entire winter it could fully charge it’s battery but if you drive it at all it’s never going be able to utilize anything more than a fraction of the battery.

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