USA Charging Standards

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions USA Charging Standards

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions USA Charging Standards

  • USA Charging Standards

  • Philip Sandiford

    Member
    June 9, 2022 at 4:16 pm

    What does the community have to say about the US Fed announcement today about 500,000 charging stations and proposing new standards?

    • This discussion was modified 3 weeks, 3 days ago by  Philip Sandiford. Reason: Accuracy
  • Dennis Swaney

    Member
    June 9, 2022 at 4:27 pm

    Where’s the link? Whatever the standards are they need to be the same as the rest of the world or at least the EU, UK, Canada, Japan, Korea, NZ, and Australia.

  • Philip Sandiford

    Member
    June 9, 2022 at 4:32 pm
  • Jonah Jorgenson

    Member
    June 9, 2022 at 4:42 pm

    I can’t think of a more efficient way for national charging standards to be established than to put it in the hands of a government agency. Well maybe putting it into the hands of a committee of government agencies would be more efficient😉

    • Philip Sandiford

      Member
      June 9, 2022 at 4:47 pm

      My 2¢ is I see this as public transportation infrastructure: roads are a parallel. Private industry has had 10-years and still promotes various hardware.

      • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 3 days ago by  Philip Sandiford. Reason: Clarity
      • This reply was modified 3 weeks, 3 days ago by  Philip Sandiford. Reason: I hate typing on phones
      • Dennis Swaney

        Member
        June 9, 2022 at 5:44 pm

        I wonder how long it took back in the early 20th Century for the fueling stations to agree on the two nozzles for gas and diesel: the 1.1875″ diameter nozzle for commercial high speed diesel pumps and the 0.9375″ nozzle for the slower pumps used to fuel cars? The next change was when the smaller 0.8125″ nozzle was mandated for unleaded gasoline pumps in the 1980s (leaving the 0.9375″ size for use only with AutoDiesel pumps).

    • Joshua Caldwell

      Member
      June 11, 2022 at 6:46 am

      If the government were in charge of new standards, they’d still be working on which blu-ray format is better… or would they still be on DVD standards?

      • Philip Sandiford

        Member
        June 11, 2022 at 7:13 am

        Not at you Joshua, I know you were joshing, (sorry) but I’d like to discuss that PoV: The counter is ‘If the private sector were in charge we’d still be using 4 different plugs 15 years on.’ (With a 5th in the wings)

        Both sectors have waste but government has been pretty successful (when they finally focus) with transportation standards across state boundaries. The public generally benefits while industry grumbles at the imposition.

        That said – I was not a fan of the 55mph speed limit rule. :/

        • Jonah Jorgenson

          Member
          June 11, 2022 at 8:13 am

          Disagree. I work for the Federal Government in a fairly efficient branch (NASA) I disagree with your assessment. Fed government slow, bureaucratic, wasteful, with very few on target results due to much compromise.

          • Philip Sandiford

            Member
            June 11, 2022 at 9:20 am

            Hi Jonah. I’m pro federal government intervention on this topic though generally I’m not a fan of the federal government. I too have seen a ton of committee born fail in my 40 years there; however, I’m not painting with a broad brush this time. My PoV – this is the 2022 version of the Interstate Highway System and TVA.

            There are times when the federal government is the proper tool and I think this is one example. Environment, fuel prices, vehicle market pressures, the economy, as well as one look at our discussions on plugs to see divergent priorities.

            Should it be Tesla because they have the market force? But that license! Adapters! Well CCS1? But that doesn’t feed Hyundai/Kia! Adapters! CCS2? But I have 110 in my house and dust in my wallet! Adapters! Added to all of that, this is a national infrastructure issue (crossing state boundaries) and requires international coordination. So, “here comes the judge.” We had our chance, it is nearing crisis time and that light is a train coming.

            Could the market settle this? Sure, but they haven’t so far. In the meantime, voters wanted action and infrastructure spending was the only open road to getting focused deployment of an EV highway system.

            As for adapters, they are the price of being an “early adopter.” But 500,000 charging stations will have a known plug on them.

  • Curtis Cibinel

    Member
    June 9, 2022 at 4:56 pm

    Chademo is fading into irrelevance, the tesla plug is technically proprietary so Ccs1 kinda wins by default

    • Philip Sandiford

      Member
      June 9, 2022 at 4:59 pm

      It looks that way, unless a new standard is agreed on. I certainly don’t see Biden and Musk coming together over beer in this lifetime.

    • Philip Sandiford

      Member
      June 9, 2022 at 5:01 pm

      It does put a new spin on ‘what plug will Aptera use.’

    • John Smith

      Member
      June 9, 2022 at 5:34 pm

      With the government doing it , it’s only about 5 to 10 years away. Since the government has no money who is paying for these 50,000 chargers? It’s a good talking point anyway.

      • Dennis Swaney

        Member
        June 9, 2022 at 5:53 pm

        Every American taxpayer is!

      • kerbe2705

        Member
        June 12, 2022 at 7:42 am

        @john smith – The government has plenty of money – it’s politics that decides how to spend it.

        The funding for the charging initiative has already been allocated to the states, who are required to develop plans for implementing it ASAP. My own state, Mississippi, which currently has next to no DCFC along its seven interstate highways (literally, one AE location and one individual Greenlots unit at a McDonalds), has stated that its plan for using the grant will be completed by August.

        • James Freedle

          Member
          June 14, 2022 at 3:13 pm

          The federal government does not earn money, they take it from the tax payers. This is why federal government wastes too much money.

    • Dennis Swaney

      Member
      June 9, 2022 at 5:52 pm

      But it is only USA; CCS2 is the EU standard and probably the defect global standard soon.

      • kerbe2705

        Member
        June 9, 2022 at 8:35 pm

        @Dennis Swaney – North America and Japan won’t move to CCS2 because too many vehicles require J1772 plugs for 110/120 V Level 1 and 210/220 V Level 2 charging. Europe doesn’t have Level 1 as their standard line voltage is 230: Their Level 2 and CCS use a proprietary connector. China, too, has a proprietary connector of its own.

        Founder Chris is correct: The Tesla charging connector is elegant – but so was Betamax – and I fear that its days are numbered in the US as it’s already been discontinued in Europe and Tesla is adding CCS connectors to its US Superchargers. It would be foolish for Aptera to adopt a defunct connector that would require its drivers to purchase and carry specialized adaptors with them.

        IMHO it makes more sense to move Aptera’s charging port to the front of the vehicle – where it will be closer to the power electronics, requiring fewer heavy cables, and where there is more room to install a CCS port.

        • Riley ________________________________

          Member
          June 12, 2022 at 8:39 am

          I actually prefer the tesla connector and a part of me is hoping aptera adopts it but the most logical connector is the large ugly global standard CCS.

          No matter what connector aptera adopts i hope they place the charge port on the front of the car. The front being the widest point makes it most likely to get hit in a parking lot so i will always be parking nose first.

  • Philip Sandiford

    Member
    June 10, 2022 at 3:38 am

    The biggest news isn’t the buggy: the greatest impact, potentially, is the infrastructure and 500,000 charging ‘stations.’

    Whether that is a stanchion or a row of stanchions at a center, this will be the key to get the US drivers, with their frequent 1000-mile road trips, off the ICE.

    • Jonah Jorgenson

      Member
      June 10, 2022 at 6:00 am

      Agreed! This kind of infrastructure will be more like “Gas stations” for EVs. With charging availability, range anxiety will subside and more shorter ranger and cheaper EVs will be available and affordable for those priced out of the market currently.

      Of course, delivering on 500K charging stations, especially with the government involved, may take some time. Tendency will be to move on to another popular crisis and abandon the effort or squander the funds.

      • Philip Sandiford

        Member
        June 10, 2022 at 7:32 am

        @Jonah Jorgenson there is some bureaucratic effect mitigation with this plan. Well, maybe.

        I only read the ‘communicator’ soaked release three times and suspect I am totally buying (reading) into what they are selling; however, it seems the federal agencies will develop a standard and fund downstream governments if they follow that standard. While that increases waste and corruption, (my general feeling is state and local governments seem more susceptible to corruption) it also has a scale multiplier effect on rollouts. It also makes it popular with voters on the state level if jobs are created.

        All of that to say: this is as sensible as you can get for a green infrastructure rollout by the federal government.

  • GLENN ZAJIC

    Member
    June 11, 2022 at 8:20 pm

    All of this connector frenzy could be addressed even better if the gov’t would look at standards now for the future inductive charging plans. I know it is some time off, but maybe not that far, and it could be accelerated if is was just focused on now. I am speaking of static (parking spot chargers) not dynamic ( in the road systems ). No concerns with connectors, ripping off cables or even running over the boxes, as all can be located safely.

  • Jeffrey Parker

    Member
    June 11, 2022 at 9:53 pm

    Considering there are only 168,000 gas stations in the U.S., I’m more inclined to think that the majority of the ‘stations’ are directed at apartments and other non-single attached garage type homes where a driver does not have access to their own plug. And it’s not necessary to have a plug every night for everyone.

    You don’t stop at a gas pump every day, do you?

    For a standard 120V/15A plug over 8 hours at night the Aptera can gain 100+ miles. For less efficient vehicles, the extra cost of circuits can be offset by a government incentive much like the EV tax credit.

    • kerbe2705

      Member
      June 11, 2022 at 10:02 pm

      @Jeffrey Parker – many electrical utilities around the US already offer grants and other incentives for private houses and multiple-dwelling units to install Level 2 charging: These companies WANT to sell more electricity so they are motivated to make that possibility happen!

    • Philip Sandiford

      Member
      June 12, 2022 at 5:00 am

      Interesting. Too early for me to over think (anything) but I suspect the math is different for gas and electric vehicle.

      Most gas car can refuel in 5 minutes for more miles: Government is looking at today’s technology initially. It would likely be a dark future if there were only 200k stations.

      Then again, maybe by stations they mean stanchions?

      Back to my coffee.

  • Philip Sandiford

    Member
    June 12, 2022 at 9:49 am

    5-year National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Funding by State

    “Follow the money”

    https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/bipartisan-infrastructure-law/evs_5year_nevi_funding_by_state.cfm

  • Philip Sandiford

    Member
    June 12, 2022 at 9:54 am

    FED Plan

    https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/alternative_fuel_corridors/nominations/90d_nevi_formula_program_guidance.pdf

    FED FAQ

    …and the answer is… (a flavor of CCS)

    https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/alternative_fuel_corridors/resources/nevi_program_faqs.pdf

    The document seems to be protected, so I am paraphrasing:

    The Secretary will not certify a State’s Alternative Fuel Corridors…(unless)

    – …installed every 50 miles along the State’s portions of the Interstate Highway System (within 1-mile) unless an exception granted

    – … (station) includes at least four 150kW DCFC with CCS ports capable of simultaneously DC charging four EVs

    • kerbe2705

      Member
      June 12, 2022 at 11:11 am

      @Philip Sandiford – as “minimum standards” go, these seem fairly sufficient. My hope is that the contracts will got to whatever electrical utility has control of the area in which the DCFC units are to be installed: Many utilities have already joined regional and/or multi-state consortiums for the purpose of installing charging infrastructure – now they just need to lobby the state legislatures for access to this funding.

  • Gordon Niessen

    Member
    June 14, 2022 at 2:22 pm

    Hasn’t Tesla said that they are open to sharing their technology to advance the adoption? Though it seems the current administration is not interested in working with Tesla.

    • Tim Polen

      Member
      June 14, 2022 at 3:01 pm

      That’s what has been said for years. Tesla is open to sharing, just not by selling adapters to individuals. They want other OEMs to build their EVs with their tech. With the strange language lately from Aptera and Elon/Tesla, it seems to be a safe bet that Aptera is definitely attempting to build their fleet with Tesla’s charging system (the Alpha prototypes even used a Model 3 charge port and steering column).

      As for building out stations, they had better not develop (yet another) new connector. I said it the first time around in 2009 to just use Tesla’s connector, and I’ll say it again. Chris is right about Tesla’s connector. It is the most compact, easy to use, and most capable connector out there. Put the charge port on the side of the vehicle, build the stations so that vehicles simply pull through charging spots, just as gas stations do, so that folks with trailers have easy charging without unhitching or blocking other spots. This causes a lot of drama with Tesla owners at the moment.

      • Curtis Cibinel

        Member
        June 14, 2022 at 11:29 pm

        Eventually a conflict will be that higher power vehicles will use 800v and the tesla plug can’t exceed 480v. My understanding is higher would risk arcing given it physically puts the pins close together. Dc to dc inverters (an option for the Taycan) to handle this adds cost to vehicles. Not much of an issue for Aptera since it uses 400v and 50kw and sips power but as the market demands faster charging for electric pickup trucks ccs will be the only choice. I suspect this is one reason (along with potential government funding) why tesla is adding ccs plugs.

        • Philip Sandiford

          Member
          June 15, 2022 at 3:42 am

          Eg-o-pinion: “I am (almost) over it.” Whichever Aptera selects will be fine for my use. The vehicle lives (mostly) independent of the commercial charging infrastructure. Long haulers will have concerns, though.

        • Tim Polen

          Member
          June 15, 2022 at 5:07 am

          I don’t like CCS. I have all the plugs, and the most cumbersome and troublesome connector is CCS. It doesn’t fit 100% solid to the car, it doesn’t always unlock after charging, and it is finicky about the order of operations (set up station first, or plug in first). I’d rather use CHAdeMO because it’s a higher quality connector that doesn’t get insanely hot at 40 kW. Tesla’s connector is just impressive that such a compact system can push 250 kW.

          <font face=”inherit”>I don’t get the move to 800 volts. No passenger vehicle should be pulling so much power to need that high voltage of a battery. Commercial vehicles, yes, but it’s likely they’ll have their own connector anyway since the charging rates are far and above what any 4-wheel EV will need.</font>

  • Jeffrey May

    Member
    June 14, 2022 at 2:26 pm

    The rambling that Chris did today in the webinar while talking about charging (complaining about the size of the available non-Tesla charging connectors, the lack of public charging infrastructure, electric grids not being able to handle projected future demand, etc.) while giving precisely zero details on what Aptera actually plans to do with charging on their vehicle (charge port type, charge rates, etc.) did not inspire much confidence.

    He started off by making it abundantly clear that he didn’t even want to be talking about the subject, which was disconcerting. And he ended by bizarrely suggesting that Aptera would be enlisting its fans in the coming weeks to get involved with some sort of lobbying effort to get the U.S. to adopt Tesla charging standards as THE nationwide charging standard. While that might be nice (the Tesla charging tech really is superior vs J1772 in most aspects), it’s simply not going to happen.

    I read somebody’s thoughts in another thread whose takeaway from the webinar was that Chris’s lauding of Tesla’s connector and chargers, plus the total lack of specifics offered on what Aptera plans to put on their vehicle, suggested that Aptera might be trying to work out a deal to use Tesla’s charge connector. That would be cool and theoretically possible, but I’d be surprised if that’s the direction they go, mainly cuz I don’t see Tesla allowing Aptera to use existing Superchargers with the Tesla connector. (Yes, I know Elon has made comments about opening up the Supercharger network to non-Teslas, but I don’t see that happening on a wide scale anytime soon.) And I’d be surprised if Aptera would choose a path where you’d be forced to use a Tesla-to-CCS adapter for all DC charging, although that would technically be possible too.

  • James Freedle

    Member
    June 14, 2022 at 3:09 pm

    Actually, if you want something to take three times as long and go extremely over budget, get the government to head the project (example Railways). This is something that would be better handled by the industry focusing on the user’s of their products.

  • Paul Carlucci

    Member
    June 14, 2022 at 9:20 pm

    I feel that the biggest reason to use the Tesla connector is because of the amount of news coverage that Aptera would get while being heralded as the first third party manufacturer to use the connector. I’m otherwise strongly in support of J1772/CCS. I already have three J1772 chargers installed at my house and I really don’t want to have to use an adapter every time I need to charge, which honestly will hardly be ever.

  • Joshua Rosen

    Member
    June 15, 2022 at 6:37 am

    Is Aptera talking to Tesla about licensing the Tesla connector? I agree completely with Chris about the technical merits of Tesla’s connector vs the CCS1 connector. CCS1 is a horrendous kludge compared to the elegant Tesla connector but the fact remains that Tesla has never licensed their connector to any other company. Early on Elon said they wanted to but that was when they were just starting to build the Supercharger Network, he also knew that there was zero chance that any legacy manufacturer would take him up on the offer. I think it would make more sense for Tesla to license their connector to Aptera then to release a CCS1 to Tesla adapter that would allow large numbers of CCS1 cars to screw up access to the Supercharger Network for Tesla drivers. By allowing Aptera to use their network they will be able to claim that it’s an open network and therefore eligible for public funds. And as part of the licensing deal with Aptera they can dictate that the charge port is correctly located, i.e. the rear passenger side, so that Aptera’s don’t take up two spots when they charge.

    I’d like to see the Tesla connector on the Aptera with access to the Supercharger network but it’s always seemed unlikely that they could make that happen. Would be nice if Chris had said something about the progress of their licensing negotiations, assuming that they are even happening. If they aren’t close to a deal with Tesla then it was foolish for him to trash talk the CCS1 system because if they can’t use the Tesla connector that’s what they’ll be left with.

    Personally I have two EVSEs, a Tesla Wall Connector and a ClipperCreek so I’m good to go either way.

    • Jonah Jorgenson

      Member
      June 15, 2022 at 9:58 am

      Tesla will add CCS1 connectors to its Supercharger stations in the United States to let non-Tesla EV owners access the charging network so there would be no issue if Aptera has a CCS style plug. Tesla is also slowly opening thier network up to other EV use. With a CCS plug, Aptera could also access other charging networks in the U.S. if needed/wanted which they could not do with a Tesla only plug. Tesla is migrating to CCS2 in Europe. No reason they will not migrate to CCS in the U.S. as well starting with installing CCS1 plugs on their chargers.

      For me, using a CCS plug in the U.S. is no more difficult than it was using a gas pump when I drove ICE cars. In fact, the gas pump was more cumbersome. My last EV (Now drive a Tesla) used a J1772 plug. No problem using it.

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