Warranty on remaining battery capacity after 8 years/160.000km?

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Warranty on remaining battery capacity after 8 years/160.000km?

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Warranty on remaining battery capacity after 8 years/160.000km?

  • Warranty on remaining battery capacity after 8 years/160.000km?

     Jacob Bunce updated 5 months, 2 weeks ago 13 Members · 18 Posts
  • Elzo Stubbe

    Member
    November 20, 2021 at 10:41 am

    Some manufacturers give a warranty on remaining capacity(70%) of the battery pack after 8 years or 160.000 km(roughly 100.000 miles) Does anybody know what Aptera’s policy on this subject is?

  • Len Nowak Nowak

    Moderator
    November 20, 2021 at 10:54 am

    I guess until they advise on their final battery decisions after the beta>… I guess they may not publish. They were using 2170 batteries early on….

    IMHO I doubt it will be anything less

    • Elzo Stubbe

      Member
      November 20, 2021 at 10:58 am

      maybe Tesla will help their little brother with the 4860 and the warranty will automatically expand to “ludacris”remaining capacity…..

      • Curtis Cibinel

        Member
        November 20, 2021 at 11:53 am

        LFP from CATL or BYD for easier supply chain that makes 400-600 mile max range with long lasting batteries that can have any percentage and are less thermally sensitive. LFP will not be an easy transition – expect it to take at least 2 years.

        It would be far more practical than using 4680 to get to 1200 mile range which would just be a headline grab. Tesla cant make enough of the 4680s for themselves so the idea they would share is just not going to happen.

      • Joshua Rosen

        Member
        November 21, 2021 at 6:40 am

        LFPs are more thermally sensitive that NMC when it comes to charging. There were a lot of complaints from LFP SR+ owners in Germany last winter, they were getting Level 2 speeds at Superchargers. Supposedly Tesla has fixed this with a software update that does a better job of preheating the batteries before charging. There are now LFP cars in the US, we’ll see what happens this winter.

        If they adopt LFPs in the future this is something they will have to be careful about, they will have to make sure that the batteries have sufficient heating to operate in cold weather.

        • John Malcom

          Member
          November 21, 2021 at 10:00 am

          LFP Hands down better engineering, safety, cost and availability choice for shorter ranges. Of course some accommodation is required for any change.

        • George Hughes

          Member
          November 21, 2021 at 7:29 pm

          Going down the right-to-repair path, we can assume that the details of the battery pack including output, input, settings in the BMS, inverter and controller, as well as the dimensions/schematic of the battery box and its electronics will be public.

          Assuming an effective market for aftermarket parts, I can imagine an entrepreneur might discover a market for replacement batteries using what ever chemistry they can make work.

          I heard a bit on another video where someone in the blogosphere suggested Tesla, was not a corporation but a cyborg. The quip caught my interest and the blogger went on to say the flat management style at Tesla, which is alleged to ’empower’ all employees, is based on and is possible because of their product homologation is constant because of their ‘electronics’ which ‘test’ each part.

          The person who made the statement was a former employee and told a story about how they boosted DC charging from 200kw to 250kw that become public through other sources.

          It seems some innovators had the idea that the charging capacity of a particular aluminum rod varied by how it was bent. A crew of self-directed employees did trial and error on the bends and trashed $100,000 worth of rods (maybe more) trying to increase the charge rate to 250kw.

          That announcement of the increase in charging rate, BTW, the video suggested increased Tesla’s stock price by billions.

          The point was that each car is tested and changes in specifications can be validated instantly.

          I hope I explained it right but the point is improvements are being constantly incorporated and validated.

          What the tesla engineers did with the rod comes from their corporate culture but what is more universally attuned is the function of the short feedback loops apparently built into the software of each car. If this is the case, the right to repair could give innovators access to this diagnostic suite allowing each user, as time goes on, to certify components and through software updates. Given the componentized nature of the Aptera, suppliers hoping to do better would be in a position to validate all sorts of after market accessories from new battery configurations to hydrogen fuel cell/battery hybrid systems to who knows?

          The point is the self-diagnosis effort built in the electronics, if it is done in a more accessible way, could be very revolutionary in terms of the development of EV’s in general especially if exercising this first mover opportunity you end up setting open standards adopted by others … like the rapidly growing and evolving EV supplier parts business.

          This would be better than a 100,000 mile battery warranty largely because it would give you the information you need about the health of the battery in real time.

      • John Malcom

        Member
        November 21, 2021 at 9:56 am

        I don’t see LFPs in Aptera anytime soon. Too much reengineering. Production schedule would slip to the right significantly.

        Joshua is right, a lot of engineering detail to account for at the systems level if they go in that direction.

        I believe that something more revolutionary in battery science will come along before Iteration II of the Aptera. Of course, that too will require engineering consideration.

    • John Malcom

      Member
      November 21, 2021 at 9:58 am

      I am almost 99.9% sure 2170 cells as stated and seen in various videos and posts. but in a unique, Aptera engineered, Batter Pack. The secret Aptera battery sauce.

  • John Trotter

    Member
    November 21, 2021 at 3:21 pm

    Near term, I am sure management understands Voltaire: “The perfect is the enemy of the good”. As John implies, Aptera II can move to whatever is good at that point.

  • Llewellyn Evans

    Member
    November 21, 2021 at 11:46 pm

    It is a tough question because the Aptera will be cycling the top of the battery charge at high cycles and deep cycling very rarely. (for the user that does less than 40miles per day and gets a daily charge from the sun.)

    What helps is that the number of km per Kwh is high due to the efficiency ….. so that helps

  • William Nacey

    Member
    January 10, 2022 at 2:27 pm

    As a message to Aptera – as well as an early Tesla owner – I believe Aptera should consider that Tesla offered an 8 year unlimited mileage warranty on all powertrain and battery components. This eliminated any concerns that these critical and expensive items would become prohibitively expensive with the early cars. Later, once Tesla had established the reliability of their platforms, they were able to reduce the warranties to the more standard multi-year 100,000 mile terms.

    Given that Aptera will be using new and, as yet, unproven in-wheel motors but proven battery technologies, I suspect that Aptera’s warranty “calculus” may need to be different from Tesla’s early offering. As a potential Aptera owner (with a reservation), I am concerned mostly with the motor technology and somewhat less with the batteries – so I would want to see a long and comprehensive warranty against all motor issues. I would be somewhat less concerned but would expect a competitive battery warranty.

    Also Aptera will need to keep in mind that Tesla (and others) are a fast moving target. Tesla has indicated that the 4680 batteries may last considerably longer than earlier technologies. Aptera will need to be competitive with Tesla on all levels- especially as Tesla gets closer to offering their ~$25k car.

    BTW, my old 2013 Tesla MS has over 130,000 miles on it, has been across the US four times, all over the US West Coast and show no signs of wear. I have seen 2012 MS’s with over 400,000 miles and all still on the original batteries and motors. This is the standard I hope for from Aptera with their 1,000 mile product.

    • Joshua Rosen

      Member
      January 11, 2022 at 8:02 am

      Tesla’s current battery and drive unit warranty is 8 years/120,000 miles on the AWD and 8 year/100,000 miles on the RWD. Aptera should do something similar, put a 75,000 mile limit on the 25KWh pack, 100,000 miles on the 40KWh battery pack, 120,000 mile warranty on the 60KWh and 150,000 miles on the 100Kwh packs. The smaller the pack the greater the number of cycles it will go through in a given distance which is way smaller packs should have shorter warranties and larger packs longer warranties. Motors should have at least a 100,000 mile warranty.

      • Bernard Dubuc

        Member
        January 16, 2022 at 8:40 pm

        with solar charging they will go thru a cycle every sunny day

  • Robert Klasson

    Member
    January 17, 2022 at 3:00 am

    No, a cycle is usually defined as charging from 0 to 100%. A day of solar charging won’t come anywhere near being equivalent to one cycle.

  • Jacob Bunce

    Member
    January 17, 2022 at 1:11 pm

    In theory, the fact that Aptera is more than 2x as energy efficient as Tesla means that their battery life will get consumed at half the rate per distance. That means double the battery life and double the warranty. Ie 16 years/240,000 mile battery warranty would be the expectation.

    • John LaRocque

      Member
      January 17, 2022 at 4:43 pm

      The thing that matters is cycles – in Aptera’s case, the efficiency means fewer cycles, but the smaller battery partially offsets that gain for the shorter range models. (Chemistry, charge/discharge rates, reserve, etc. all being equal. Apparently Tesla is switching most of its cars over to LFP cells which should have excellent longevity.)

      • Jacob Bunce

        Member
        January 19, 2022 at 1:47 pm

        Very true. But if the watt hours are equal then that should yield double the life. For example, the 1000 mile aptera (100kWh battery) I would expect twice the battery life of a 400 mile Tesla (100kWh battery) because it’s the same capacity battery in a vehicle that is twice as efficient (ie half the cycles per mile).

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