Which model range of Aptera?

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Which model range of Aptera?

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Which model range of Aptera?

  • Which model range of Aptera?

  • Robert Acevedo

    Member
    September 26, 2022 at 12:35 am

    Aptera comes in 250/400/600/1000 mile range variants, but which model of Aptera gives you the most bang for your buck when it comes to range? If you were to divide the cost by the total range, the 250 mile range Aptera at $25,900 has a cost $103.60 per mile of pack range, The 400 mile Aptera is $29,800 at $74.50 per mile (a $29 difference between the models, or 28%), The 600 mile Aptera at $34,600 is $57.66 per mile (a $16.84 difference or 22%), and the 1,000 mile Aptera at $44,900 is $44.90 per mile (a $12.76 difference or 22%). But instead If you compare the base 250 mile range model, and think of the other ranges as “pack additions” to the 250: $3,900 gets you an extra 150 miles of range at $26 per mile of extended range, $8,700 gets you 350 more miles at $24.85 per mile of range, and $19,000 gets you an extra 750 miles at $25.30 per mile extra range.

    You can come to your own conclusions, but what I take away is that upgrading to the 400 mile range variant is immediately very economical compared to the base 250 mile version and gives the biggest leap in cost per mile of range. The 600 mile Aptera seems to be the sweet spot in the economy of scale. The 1000 mile Aptera, unlike buying in bulk at Costco doesn’t seem to be much of an improvement over the 600, and is in one metric actually is a little worse.

    Of course you have to factor in your own use case scenario. Are you gonna actually use the total range regularly, or just kind of sit on hundreds of miles of extra range, and hundreds of pounds of extra weight? Maybe you just want to future proof your car against battery degradation with 4-600 miles of range because this will be the last car you ever buy, and two decades and hundreds of thousands of miles later you will still have a useful total range. Or Maybe the 250 mile Aptera to you is like Goldilocks ideal temperature porridge.

    • This discussion was modified 1 week, 1 day ago by  bbelcamino.
  • Thomas Bushaw

    Member
    September 26, 2022 at 7:28 am

    Robert, having the 1000 mile battery pack to give you plenty of range as the years pass and the batteries degrade is a good point, but sitting on (and carrying around) that extra weight and cost for all those years (with that extra range that you very rarely and probably don’t need to use) just doesn’t seem worth it to me. Besides, in 5 or 10 years who knows what the battery technology will look like. You may be able to swap out that 250/400/600 pack (at a significant cost, most likely) for something smaller, lighter, and/or with more range.

  • Gary Greenway

    Member
    September 26, 2022 at 8:27 am

    My range selection was based mostly on the premise that I wanted to charge it mostly at home or home away from home. Our weekly drive to the cottage is about 200 to 250 miles one way. I take occasional trips to remote off grid areas about 350 miles away where I am unable to plug it in anywhere. I do not want to get out in the rain or snow to charge midway at a higher rate per kWh. For me, the 600 mile version fit my requirements best.

  • J.P. Morere

    Member
    September 26, 2022 at 12:21 pm

    I am kind of caught between two options, 400 and 600 mi. The 600 mi. option would seem to fit my desires best but I could easily make do with the 400 mi. option. Most of my travel to visit family or friends falls within about 700 mi. This could easily be done with one charge and dining stop during the day of travel, an excellent fit to my style. The 400 mi. option would require two charge stops for the day. While this would not be a deal-breaker, to me it would be an irritant – when on the road, I want to be going, not waiting around for other things to happen.

    Another consideration is cost, and the additional cost of the 600 mi. pack over the 400 mi. pack is significant to me. Add that to the fact that I might only make use of the 600 mi. range 4-8 times a year and it just adds to my dilemma. At that, for my own convenience, I am still leaning heavily toward the 600 mi. option. I suspect that this dilemma will only be answered when my reservation comes up in the queue and I finally place my order.

    Still… a ‘relatively’ affordable EV with range options of 400 and 600 miles is phenomenal! 🙂

  • seth feldman

    Member
    September 26, 2022 at 4:21 pm

    I’m figuring on keeping my battery in the 20-80% charge range for long cycle life. That means 60% of the advertised range. 60% of 400=240miles would probably just cover most of my weekend trips assuming I don’t drive past 55 or have the AC/heat on…. 60% of 600=360miles would give me some breathing room to drive, and sit in traffic with amenities on, and complete a round trip without charging. If I do a multiday road trip I can get away with a single 30min/250mile charge in a full day of driving, probably 2 charges if I switch off with another driver before the overnight charge. Unless you just sit in traffic then you might not even need to charge the 400 mile version until night

  • Curtis Cibinel

    Member
    September 26, 2022 at 4:35 pm

    Seems like a lot of the purchasing choices are based on battery degradation concerns. It is important to note that long trips are not the day to day so even 1-2 times per month is nothing given 500+ cycle life to 80% for the battery.

    Personally I really feel Aptera is well suited to LFP/LFMP or even sodium ion for the shorter ranges. These chemistries make battery degradation essentially a non-issue and given the vehicle is designed to allow for the 99 kwh pack (roughly 200 liters) it should definitely be possible for 500-750 miles of range using these lower density options. The insane efficiency of the base design of the Aptera means that the batteries can basically be the scraps of the industry and still have very solid range. 200lb more cells and filling the empty space (which would otherwise be the cells on larger packs) will still be a very efficient vehicle. Ideally Aptera will move forward with R&D of these batteries (after initial production starts – not worth delaying) and migrate the shorter to these options which would make very compelling vehicles and save thousands in battery cost per vehicle. Once degradation worries are taken out of the equation many would go with shorter range.

    If Aptera can potentially make the 400 mile version using the sodium ion cells from CATL then you have the most desirable model using a very cheap and long lasting battery with absolutely no rare metals or even lithium. Long range, cheap and massively reduced environmental impact would really appeal to a range of buyers.

    • George Hughes

      Member
      September 27, 2022 at 5:52 pm

      I’m all for an Aptera 250 GT+ (250 mile Green Tech Plus) model that puts a set of sodium based cells in a 400 mile version chassis but costs $24,900 … because the batteries are cheaper, less energy dense, more sustainable and last forever.

    • William Cook

      Member
      September 28, 2022 at 1:57 pm

      I’ve own an EV with a 75kWh battery pack (300 miles EPA, 250 miles at highway speed) for about 4 years. The best information that I can collect from the BMS shows about 6-7% degradation on 250 cycles and 40k miles. Granted, the miles/yr are a little low but Covid impacted my daily travel and I don’t have to travel as part of my job. It is pretty much a commuter vehicle for me. The degradation is pretty much in line with estimates. See https://batteryuniversity.com for more information. Anyway, I opted for the 400 mile Aptera version since I’m pretty confident on my needs.

      The battery chemistry selection affects a couple of other design elements; cost, discharge rate, capacity/weight ratio, and size to name a few. For example, you may be able to use sodium cells on low demand motor, low capacity models but not on high demand drive system/long range models because it doesn’t meet the design requirements. The market seems to be using sodium-based cells in solar systems because capacity/weight/size ratios and discharge rates are not as important as cost and cycles lifetime. I think Tesla is now offering sodium-based cells in some of the lower capacity/drive vehicles so it is possible. However, I have no idea about Aptera. We will just have to see.

  • BigSky Country

    Member
    September 27, 2022 at 3:30 pm

    I’ve put a lot of thought about what made sense for me and I went with a 600 mile too. I intend to use this vehicle up and down the east coast between my 2 locations. I don’t have access to home charging at one of them, so a larger battery gives me more flexibility. I also considered the 60% typical usage argument as well, but I intend to fully charge it for long trips. I want to be able to get a full day of driving on a charge and charge overnight at a stop. The biggest reason is I wanted enough range to drive through and past New York before needing to charge.

  • Bart Cunningham

    Member
    September 29, 2022 at 4:05 am

    I have thought quite a bit about what is ideal and have decided on the 600 version. I don’t do a whole lot of driving but I do do it in spurts and I also leave it parked for several days or more at a time which could top up the batteries nicely over time. I am also factoring in the 20-80% range and the fact that I live in NE Ohio where is seems like most of the year I will need to keep warm while driving.

  • Patrick Liebknecht

    Member
    September 29, 2022 at 11:00 am

    For me 400 miles is plenty for where I go and where I commute, I should technically never have to charge it.

    It will still cost me way more than I’ll save in fuel and oil changes, but I’ll never have to charge it lol

  • William Cook

    Member
    September 29, 2022 at 12:05 pm

    I currently have an EV with 310 miles of EPA range rated at 240Wh/mi. However, I use 280Wh/mi at modern highway speeds which gives me about 267 miles of range. I have also measured about 7% degradation after 4 years which drops the range to about 250 miles or about 80% of the original rating. On trips, I try to only use about 80% of that capacity while traveling to protect the health of the pack, reduce recharge time, and add a safety margin, I find that I am down to (80% of 250) 200 miles of range. I don’t find that too short. I’m usually ready for a food/bathroom break anyway after 2.5-3 hrs of driving. So, I have selected the Aptera 400 mile battery pack as it fits my personal travel preferences. I suspect that the low drag design will impact highway speed range less than my current EV. Degradation should be about the same. Just guessing here as we will have to wait for full testing from the company, but we may see 5-6% loss at highway speed and 7% degradation after a couple of years. That might put the 400 mile EPA pack close to 350 miles at highway speed and 300 miles only using 80%. That would be over 4 hours of drive time. I don’t think I can sit still that long. If we get vehicle to grid, then I may be able to eliminate a home generator and shift the dollars into the battery pack. I would love to have the larger pack and bank up the sun and never worry about charging. However, I just can’t justify the cost at this time.

  • Jim Lafflam

    Member
    October 5, 2022 at 8:45 pm

    Before I made my reservation back in March 2021, I wondered if the Aptera “price per mile of range” was linear, or if there was an increasing premium cost for the higher ranged vehicles. So I made a quick little spreadsheet, plotted price versus range, and calculated the equation of the line. This exercise revealed two interesting pieces of information (see attached snippet below).

    1. The price of an Aptera without any batteries at all would be about $19,590… not that we can buy an Aptera without batteries, of course, and not that there would be any reason to do so. But it revealed the approximate retail value of the entire vehicle minus the batteries (hull, motors, wheels, et al.).

    2. The “price per range” for the batteries was VERY linear at about $25.26 per mile. This is the primary takeaway. There is NO extra premium battery cost even for the astonishing 1000-mile variant.

    This pricing structure struck me as very fair and transparent, so I immediately and happily placed my reservation for the 1000-mile version.

    Since then, I have run many different scenarios through spreadsheets and concluded that the 600-mile version was a better fit for me since I will not fully utilize 1000 often enough to justify hauling the extra battery weight around all the time. So I changed my reservation. I don’t think I will change it back, but who knows? I have time.

    Hope this helps someone 🙂

    • GLENN ZAJIC

      Member
      October 5, 2022 at 9:54 pm

      Jim, I did a similar calculation, but not as neat as yours was. 600 for me too.

    • Michael Marsden

      Member
      October 6, 2022 at 4:57 am

      Rather than looking at the nominal miles, perhaps look at the total kWh. I believe it is 23kWh, 45kWh, 66kWh, and 99kWh. Through this lens, the 250 mile unit and the 1000 mile unit look somewhat underserved compared to the other two, which have a bigger reserve capacity. That extra reserve means that the battery will have a longer life, and a bigger safety margin on the range, particularly in winter.

      So I would say that the premium battery cost is there, but hidden by reducing the reserve. The 45kWh and 66kWh units look the best value to me.

      • Jim Lafflam

        Member
        October 6, 2022 at 5:57 am

        When I performed the original calculations based on range back in March 2021, I don’t think we knew the specifics about the different battery capacities. If I remember correctly, the capacities were simply estimated to be about 25/40/60/100 kWh, and I assumed those numbers would change as the vehicle got closer to production. Plus, I think it takes non-EV drivers (like me) time to start thinking in terms of watts per mile, etc., so I went with a somewhat simplistic calculation using the advertised range estimates at the time. The main point was to prove that the price of the higher ranged vehicles did not increase exponentially.

        I just re-ran the calculations (see snippet below) using the current estimated battery capacities and found that the equation is no longer perfectly linear, but it is close enough to still say there is no exponential premium as the battery gets bigger.

        That said, using the most up-to-date information available, it does appear that the 600-mile version is the best bang for buck, followed closely by the 400-mile version. But none of them are really out of whack. I always assumed it was going to take some extra engineering and a bit of magic to cram in the 99 kWh battery, so a little extra cost is reasonable (imho). (Again, this is only looking at price per kWh, and does not take into account other costs such as hauling around the extra weight of the larger battery when it is not absolutely necessary to do so.)

        $0.02, YMMV 🙂

  • Fanfare 100

    Member
    October 7, 2022 at 8:16 pm

    It seems I see an whole lot of peeps concerned about keeping the charge between 20-80%. Is this truly as critical when Aptera is charging from the sun, which is not truly a battery-degrading fast-charge, but rather, a trickle charge?

    • Curtis Cibinel

      Member
      October 7, 2022 at 9:18 pm

      Staying at high charge is also bad for cells. I really think that lfp or even sodium ion could be used eventually for good ranges (possibly 750 with lfp and 500 with sodium max). Getting on the market is priority 1 but that doesn’t mean things can’t be refined. This could save a ton of cost per vehicle and effectively makes degradation irrelevant and reduces environmental impact.

      • Bennet Yee

        Member
        October 12, 2022 at 6:10 pm

        It would be nice to be able to configure the vehicle to stop charging at some threshold, e.g., 80% of full charge, by default, and only fully charge when we are about to go on (or are on) a longer range trip.

        if the software is even smarter — and IFTTT or mobile device calendar integration might be needed — when the vehicle has “excess” power, determine the climate control settings to run just before when we need to use the vehicle. many vehicles already allow remote climate control — manually from a mobile app — so it wouldn’t be a stretch to both have automated triggers and to set the target temperature based on amount of power available. but then i don’t think we know whether the aptera will have its own mobile data; being able to drop our own sim card in would be ideal….

        • This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by  Bennet Yee.
        • Curtis Cibinel

          Member
          October 12, 2022 at 7:18 pm

          No doubt Aptera will have some ability to limit charging percentage. Using the overcharge power for things like climate control might be possible as the software is improved over time.

          Using a chemistry like LFP, LFMP or sodium ion largely avoids problems with degradation if the cells stay full which means no need to cap the charging. Aptera is very light and can use these lower density (weight and volume) batteries and still end up with very effective range (cells for a 1000 mile Aptera are likely 200 liters / 1000lb).

    • William Cook

      Member
      October 8, 2022 at 7:03 am

      Curtis brings up a couple of good points. I’m just guessing but I feel like Aptera is probably going with popular batteries chemistries in the beginning in order to minimize time to market and leverage existing battery production scale. But who knows, there are so many chemistries coming out with all kinds of trade-offs they may shock us with more stuff down the road. Kinda fun to watch!

      Assuming we end up with NMC cells as the video below mentions, high state of charge is one of the larger degradation component of cell life. Charging rate also adds to degradation but is not as large as other facets; in my opinion. Whether you are using solar or regen-braking as a charge source, the engineers have to trade-off whether to use that energy or not. When I charge my current EV to anything close to 90% SoC, a message pops up on the console warning the driver that regen-braking is reduced. Just guessing here but I suspect that Aptera will have the same dilemmas. They can run fans to cool the cabin or do something useful with the spare solar energy once the batteries are peaked out.

      If you are interested in more detailed battery chemistry information and trade-offs, I suggest Battery University http://www.batteryuniversity.com

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-jO50SDDgU

  • Michael Thwaite

    Member
    October 12, 2022 at 2:52 pm

    I went for the 600 mile pack as I’m anticipating that this car will underperform on range in adverse conditions more than a conventional EV. I fear the 600 will get only 300 in really bad weather and the 250 mile maybe close to 100 miles.

    In my Tesla, the HVAC has a small impact compared to the 4.1 miles/kWh that the car achieves over its lifetime, maybe 10% percent. In winter, cold weather, rain and wind have a much greater impact of at least 20% – in snow, make that 50% in my i3 one winters day… only just got home!

    I suspect these drains will have the same the same impact on the Aptera – maybe slightly lower HVAC if it’s well insulated and perhaps a reduction in rolling resistance in rain and windy conditions on account of the lower wheel count – but as the Aptera has a smaller battery, the effect might be greater.

    Thoughts?

    • John Voules

      Member
      October 12, 2022 at 4:04 pm

      I also have an i3…horrible miles returned in Chicago cold. The APTERA is a longer vehicle, since it’s also lighter weight, probably more important to keep clean as snow by percentage of weight may have a greater effect on your range. It does help to have my i3 preconditioned before I take off. I do have the gas fed generator on my i3, but I hate to use liquid fuel. I usually fill my tank (2 gallon tank) about twice a year.

  • Richard Kaiser

    Member
    October 13, 2022 at 3:41 am

    I placed a reservation for the 1000 mile version.
    My reasoning:
    My daily commute to work is 105 miles a day for 5 days a week equals 525 miles just commuting so, as I can’t charge at home, the 600 mile version just doesn’t cut it for me. Even more so if I want to use the 80%-20% cycle.

    Considering that I live up in the mountains in winter the situation would get even worse (snow, cold). My guess is that during winter time I should be able to have to go to town for a charge up not more than once every one or two weeks

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