Camera's on both sides, instead of "sticks"?

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Camera's on both sides, instead of "sticks"?

Aptera Community Aptera Discussions Camera's on both sides, instead of "sticks"?

  • Camera's on both sides, instead of "sticks"?

  • Konijnerd the Great

    Member
    March 5, 2022 at 2:00 am

    Hello everyone, I’m new here. I remember i was excited about aptera in 2020, but now re-found it, and considering making a pre-order and investment soon.
    One thing i was wondering, if aptera can do camera’s instead of mirrors, why they are not opting to go with 180 degree camera’s.

    I attached a photo that shows that 180 degree camera’s can fully cover the sides of the car, and would like to discuss this and get opinions on it.

    Positives are obvious:

    1. No sticking out camera, thus more aerodynamic design and longer range/less noise.

    2. Much less chance on damage.

    3. More visibility (the screens in the car could simply cut off the part that you do not need to see and turn it to a angle that fits perfect)

    4. The car would -probably- allow for a 360 degree mode as some cars currently have. (as front wheels stick out, not 100% sure it can be done)

    5. More safety for the car driver.

    Negatives:
    Probably going to be a bit more expensive, but much? for the good it adds?

    Probably needs to be a high-res camera. Maybe it doesn’t exist in affordable high resolution?

    Thanks for reading, and excited to be part of the community of Aptera.

    • This discussion was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by  bbelcamino.
  • John Smith

    Member
    March 5, 2022 at 6:47 am

    Very distorted views. I’m not sure that’s what you want in a safety situation, time wasted interpreting the images.

    • Konijnerd the Great

      Member
      March 5, 2022 at 7:38 am

      Yes, this picture isnt the best example but there are 4k 180 degree camera’s, i’ve found them already. You can easily make up for skewed angles with software.

  • John Malcom

    Member
    March 5, 2022 at 7:01 am

    Cute little girl! I am sure you want to keep her safe.

    The current design is an engineering change from the original camera concept required to meet US State regulations for side mirrors (10 Sq inches minimum for each mirror). Camera use is not approved yet. The current design has a strip of 2″ x 5″ reflective material facing backwards as any side mirror would have. Cameras are still included for our use in the new design. The engineers have done an excellent job of designing the stalk, reflective material, and cameras to have minimal impact on aerodynamics.

    Another engineering change would be problematic at this time. There would be unscheduled engineering, software, supply chain, testing, and production work needed. All of the above would jeopardize both schedule and cost of the vehicle and use resources earmarked for other features.

    One of the purposes of Beta Testing is the verification of production build parts in the design. If there is a switch out of camera design the supply chain for the new parts would need to be established and verified (Difficult in these times of COVID supply chain failures and lead times) and the testing scheduled down stream.

    Aptera will evolve and the next iteration will have some of the great ideas submitted on the forum over the last year. The idea you suggest can be evaluated for inclusion in the next iteration.

    • Joseph DelVecchio

      Member
      March 5, 2022 at 6:13 pm

      Hi, John

      Are photos of the new mirrors available anywhere? I’m sure they’re great, but I’m curious.

      • John Malcom

        Member
        March 5, 2022 at 8:08 pm

        Joseph

        No photos that I am aware of just the Beta rendering that is currently posted with little detail and fuzzy image. I am sure they will be functional at some level for compliance, but the intent is to use the cameras for side viewing not the mirrors.

        • Joseph DelVecchio

          Member
          March 5, 2022 at 9:39 pm

          Yeah. Homologation compromises held on by double-sided tape and the Aptera ships with a little bottle of Goo-Be-Gone:)

          As long as they don’t fall off before delivery…

  • Paul Schultz

    Member
    March 5, 2022 at 11:34 am

    This is absolutely doable right now with little engineering difficulty. But, if Aptera is not yet ready to take advantage of the wider views as part of their level 2+ self-driving hardware/software suite there is no real incentive to tack these on at this stage in the development process.

    Using wide-angle cameras can be employed for self-driving. As mentioned the distortion can be accounted for in software. Comma.ai has a wide-angle rear-facing camera in their comma3 product. It currently functions to monitor the driver but also will be used in the near future to see cars out the side and rear windows so that Comma achieves a 360 view with one device inside the car and mounted to the windshield. I could see Aptera using 180 view cameras on each side of the vehicle to assist in a future level 2 or higher self-driving option.

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 4 weeks ago by  Paul Schultz.
    • Konijnerd the Great

      Member
      March 5, 2022 at 11:42 am

      maybe there are other camera’s installed in the final version (gamma). Kind of has to be, because else a car wouldn’t know whats in the left or right of the car. only whats in front or in the back.
      And that would make level 2 autonomous driving impossible.

      But then you could remove the mirror cameras entirely and opt for these two.

      Would love a reply from Aptera themselfs about this. Do they come here to the forum often?

    • John Malcom

      Member
      March 5, 2022 at 12:14 pm

      Aptera is in the process of evaluating providers for their version of level II driver assist. It Is unknown if the evaluation is complete. They have not announced a provider(s) at this point. They will adopt the hardware of the selected provider (Cameras, Lidar etc) and if they haven’t already, will make allowance for its incorporation. Comma.ai was one of the providers being considered. With an already announced price point for the driver assist feature of $1,300 cost to implement is pretty tight and no additional cost over the original estimate would be acceptable as it would represent a potential loss on every vehicle it would be installed on.

      • kerbe2705

        Member
        March 5, 2022 at 10:26 pm

        John, I recall them saying that they were working with a Japanese developer to provide Safety Pilot software, not that they were looking to source a hardware/software package. There was a lot of discussion on the old forums suggesting they “just use comma.ai” but I can’t find a reference to anyone from Aptera mentioning that option.

        • John Malcom

          Member
          March 6, 2022 at 12:51 am

          The last reference I have regarding Safety Pilot was from a long, long time ago discussions in the previous forum. I don’t have any on Japanese developers. When did they make that statement?

        • John Malcom

          Member
          March 9, 2022 at 6:50 pm

          Ken, I emailed Kayleigh about the SW vendor for Safety Pilot. In her response she indicated that she did not think that Aptera had said a Japanese company had been engaged to work on Safety Pilot, but if they had, it is “Old information”.

          She said that Aptera was not ready to announce who their Safety Pilot partner was yet. So it is an open item at this point.

  • kerbe2705

    Member
    March 5, 2022 at 11:47 am

    A side-view image should show a view of less than 90° – anything more would be distracting and would take a moment for the viewer to interpret the image. Half of the image shown by a 180° camera would be the same as could be viewed through the windows.

    • Paul Schultz

      Member
      March 5, 2022 at 2:46 pm

      It is trivial to parse out a section of the camera’s view to display as a rearview while retaining the larger 180-degree view for the optional self-driving system. And, the images can have the distortion removed in real-time via software so that for the simple function of a replacement for a side mirror the image would be what is expected. Of course, this type of camera is a bit more expensive compared to a standard digital camera. The decision is whether to build them in from the start or consider them as an upgrade package for those that buy the Safety Pilot system.

      • GLENN ZAJIC

        Member
        March 5, 2022 at 5:32 pm

        And become part of the sentry system when not being driven. If done properly, I would pay an up charge for that.

      • Konijnerd the Great

        Member
        March 6, 2022 at 1:15 am

        If the team is about efficiency for -ALL- cars, a 180 degrees camera can only be better then worse. But perhaps legal requirements prohibid these cameras. But then we’d have both(backviewing mirror+side cameras) at least for the autopilot package.

  • my_discord_number_is_0328 bloody stupid

    Member
    March 5, 2022 at 7:40 pm

    i suggested this but notice that lawts require some mirror. putting the hardware in would help, and aptera was planning to work with a self driving last mile delivery company whos also working with some other electric car thats looks like a city only smal cargo robo car

    • Konijnerd the Great

      Member
      March 6, 2022 at 1:35 am

      Laws require a mirror? But they wanted cameras already instead of mirrors. This suggestion of mine simply eliminates the need for something sticking out.

      • my_discord_number_is_0328 bloody stupid

        Member
        March 6, 2022 at 7:58 am

        i agreed but the mirror will have to stay, i suggested the mirror is temporary plastic cheap thing that can be screwed off when not needed if laws change (its laws might change i think, b/c other companies also interested in it). the self driving stuff i mentioned would make more reason to add cameras that stitch together images b/c tesla already does that for their self driving.

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