MemberApril 7, 2022 at 6:05 pm
If I order the small battery, will I be able to upgrade by adding cells?
MemberApril 7, 2022 at 6:17 pm
Aptera has said that you can’t.
MemberApril 8, 2022 at 6:44 am
Probably late to ask this question, but I’m wondering how Aptera came up with the current 4 battery options? Allowing for not charging or discharging the battery 100% it would seem that the 250 mile battery will actually provide something on the order of 200 miles and the 400 mile battery a similar 320 mile range (best conditions). Why didn’t Aptera adopt a more modular design of 250, 500 and 1000 mile range? I think a 500 mile battery (50 Kw) would be the sweet spot.
MemberApril 8, 2022 at 7:04 am
If they would have done that then some people would want a 750 mile range. No matter what, you can’t satisfy all the people all the time. Most EV makers only offer 2 or 3 sizes at most. Be happy there are choices!
- This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by GLENN ZAJIC.
MemberApril 8, 2022 at 8:13 am
I’m guessing that it was determined by geometry, 60KWh is the max that they can stuff under the seat. The 250 mile battery is just a depopulated 400 mile battery which is why it’s coming out second. Chris Anthony says that there is a little work to get to the 600 mile battery and a lot to the 1000 mile battery.
1000 miles exists for marketing reasons, it’s a headline and it’s also a figure that will be impossible for any other company to achieve. I’d wager that they won’t build the 1000 mile version, it requires a redesign of the suspension, it’s going to eat up a lot of the cargo area, and it’s not useful. I also suspect that the handling on the 1000 mile version will be frightening. The mainstream versions have a 65/35 weight distribution putting most of the weight in the front where you have two wheels. To fit in the extra 400KWh for the 1000 mile version they need to put the batteries in the back where there is only one wheel. The better course would be to stuff a few extra cells into the 600 mile battery so that it can get 620 miles, i.e. 1000 kilometers. That will give them a magic 1000 number without breaking the dynamics of the vehicle.
MemberApril 8, 2022 at 10:27 am
Your statements on battery engineering are not supported by what we know about the Aptera engineering process. Statements like this give the impression that Aptera did not apply systems engineering from the start knowing what configurations they planned for and that the vehicle needs to be reengineered for some of the configurations before they can be produced. There is no evidence to support that conclusion, quite the opposite.
Additionally, It is my personal opinion that you should not be making assumptions on what Aptera will or will not manufacture and sell. Unless you know facts and can quote an official Aptera source, please don’t publish personal conjecture unless you identify it as your opinion without official substantiation.
The closer we get to production, the more important it becomes to publish accurate information approved for release by Aptera to any media even internal.
MemberApril 8, 2022 at 10:50 am
Look at the Chris Anthony Q&A video around 11 minutes in. He says that they are working on the 40KWh pack and that the 25KWh pack is just a step down. He also says the 60KWh pack is a little more challenging but they have solutions. For the 100KWh pack the way he put it is that they have a lot of serious work to do, it was a very open ended statement. The way I stated my opinion on whether they’ll bother to do it was with the qualifier “I’ll wager”, if you want to be other other side of that bet go for it. If they’ve produced a 1000 mile version by Q4 of next year then you can give me a hardy “I told you so”, if not then I get to say “I told you so”. It’s my opinion, and let me emphasize opinion, that a 1000 mile range is virtually useless, that’s a drive from Boston to Chicago without a stop. Nobody drives that far without a stop. It adds 400lbs to the weight of a car which only has a payload of 500lbs which means it’s a substantial redesign to make it work. That effort would be much better spent on a four wheel variant or a smaller version for countries where the current vehicle is too large.
MemberApril 8, 2022 at 4:08 pm
I guess my point is you don’t have an engineering background or access to the technical data and development plans of Aptera to make a credible comment on what Aptera can or can not do with regard to battery and vehicle engineering.
Your bet is on with some suggested changes. How about making it $1,000 as a test of our individual confidence and resolve on our point of view? Or, I am willing to go up to $10,000. We can find an institution to take our money as escrow and on April 8th of 2023 we will check if Aptera has a 1,000 mile version ready. If you win, you get the money. When I win Aptera will get the cash as a donation for a party for the awesome engineers.
You were years off on your post of affordable Lidar. I think the same applies to your understanding of Aptera’s engineering capability.
MemberApril 10, 2022 at 3:51 am
So, is our $1,000 bet on? Good challenge/incentive for engineering and public relations for Aptera
MemberApril 10, 2022 at 5:52 am
So, is the bet whether Aptera will EVER build a 100kwh battery or whether an Aptera will ever achieve 1000 mile range without plugging in? Be careful, these are not the same thing.
First of all I can show you how I expect to be able to go 3000 mile (across the USA) without plugging in, with the 25kwh battery Aptera I have ordered. I’m up for a bet if anyone is interested.
Also, whether Aptera will ever build a 100kwh battery in the “roadster,” (not some future four wheeled model), is not improbable, because future technology improvements will enable this task without overloading the platform.
Or are you guys wanting to bet on WHEN Aptera will get a 100kwh “roadster” on the road?
1000 miles without plugging in is easy, 100kwh battery in the “roadster” will come along eventually, especially if V2G is developed and makes it advantageous to carry around the extra weight.
Is anyone up for the 3000 mile trip across the country without plugging in?
MemberApril 10, 2022 at 8:12 am
Francis, I’d love to hear your strategy for a 3,000 mile trip across the country with “only” a 25kwh and without plugging in. A lot of driving in the sun? A lot of sunny rest stops? Do you have some other diabolical tricks up your sleeve?
MemberApril 11, 2022 at 12:57 pm
Oh my! Are we turning the forum into an illegal online betting site??? Probably not a good idea to mention money bets here.
However if someone is betting that Aptera will not build a 1,000 mile battery version and have it ready within a year, they may be approaching senility. Two thing are the crown jewels of Aptera, free solar charging for up to 40mi, and a battery range of 1,000 miles. (Based on the efficient engineering to accomplish these) Nothing any EV manufacturer has now or is even forecasting. These are the two “Knock your socks off claims” that draw attention. The first 1,000 mi version shown in public will blitz all manufacturers. Forget the Environmental pitch, it is vehicle features and price that will win the day for Aptera. (Look at the post in EV tech on the change in EV adoption barriers)
If they don’t build a 1,000 mile battery version and have it within a year they will lose most of their credibility.
Certainly the engineers and finance people will be urging them on to do this.
They have announced it and will do it. Their engineering is remarkable.
If someone really doesn’t believe that Aptera will have a 1,000 mile version by this time next year I am game for a bet!!😁
MemberApril 8, 2022 at 4:31 pm
Oh well Joshua… it was a good run, but I suppose this forum is closed now to everyone except qualified engineers who have opinions based on peer-reviewed research. Or those willing to place bets on who has the bigger… “opinion”. 😁
MemberApril 8, 2022 at 4:48 pm
Everyone is entitled to an opinion. But it seems reasonable to me that anyone who wants to post an opinion on a public forum do some research to make sure their opinion is an informed opinion and not misrepresenting fact. It also seems reasonable to me that if expressing an opinion, that the opinion be based on some level of expertise in the field.
Also to me, it seems reasonable that if you are going to refute a claim by a company, that you have some substantial basis for refuting the claim other than just your opinion especially if close to a major milestone in a product development program in a very competitive environment with many people looking for something to criticize the product for some unknown benefit.
MemberApril 9, 2022 at 7:50 pm
Glad to have connectivity to the forum again
MemberApril 8, 2022 at 10:58 am
Personally, I value others’ opinions, particularly when it is evident that they know what they’re talking about. Sure, it may be conjecture, but if it’s informed conjecture I consider it useful information. But, yes, it ought to be clear that it’s “IMO” information (as is the case with Joshua Rosen’s post).
MemberApril 8, 2022 at 4:50 pm
My opinion is big enough to do the job when called upon….. 😉
MemberApril 8, 2022 at 10:59 am
I disagree with your statement that the handling of the100 kw version of Aptera will be frightening and that it will require a complete re-design of the rear suspension.
There will be some adjustment of spring rates and dampening, but that is far cry from a complete re-design of the components. While I won’t disagree that aspects of handling and weight distribution will change, the basic design is robust enough to handle it with more than aplomb.
What I’m getting at is the chassis of the Aptera is more ‘advanced’ than the comparable suspension of say the 1964 Ford Falcon which was the essential underpinning of the Mustang which eventually held engines up to 428 cu.
Additionally, while the center of gravity may move incrementally higher in the vehicle with the additional weight for the 1000 mi batteries, the change is weight distribution (ft/rear) wouldn’t change appreciably as the batteries, by definition, are centrally located.
Personally, I choose the 400 mi version of Aptera but is there a use-case for the 1000 mile version?
I think so. Consider the admitted excessive battery size in this vehicle defines it as one of the largest mobile batteries available anywhere …if it just had the connectivity of a normal mobile power source. This is why all the ‘connectivity’ alternatives (V2H,V2G,V2H) need to be established before this model is put into production … or Chris changes his stance on battery connectivity and finds a partner, say from the power generation side of economy, who sees this as an opportunity for them to lead and set the standards.
I do think it absolutely appropriate for Chris to not waste precious Aptera resources trying to define this effort at interoperability in the overall economy.
However, considering that the 1000-mile battery Aptera is almost a classic implementation tool of a smart-grid storage module that you could move around, it could become elemental to the infrastructure of a smart grid and the implementation of that smart grid.
Think of this in the context, say, of a power company that designs their smart grid system to rent your battery for the cost of energy … i.e. a free-fuel gambit where the grid operators get ‘access’ to 80% our storage in a 1000 mi Aptera plugged in anywhere. That we bought an Aptera with excess battery storage means the elements of the trade are there. The idea is the power company gets use of most of the battery with actual ‘plug-in time’ requirements but that the owner gets the electricity used for transportation for free.
I bet there is some power company – The Southern Co’s or even a large Electric Membership Co-Op or group of co-ops, may propose plans to create smart-grids using EVs as part of the process.
The problem right now is no one is poised to lead in this … no one has seriously grasped the mantel.
But imagine if power company were to set up an Aptera assembly plant that made only 1000-mile Apterea that had special circuitry that when plugged in to their grid, let them do things with the battery storage they need to integrate it into the smart grid. This allows this particular utility to deploy 1 gigawatt with contratural access to .8 gw each year while earning income for assembly of a half-billion dollars in Apterea.
I’ve not done even cursory research in the furrow of smart-grid implementation using external battery storage but just as old-style Detroit could often be found in bed with the oil companies, I’m just waiting for the electric generating companies … or hell, even that quasi-government entity, the TVA … to step up start ‘playing’ with the EV industry.
Will EV’s be part of the coming ‘smart grid?’ If that is a realistic possibility at all, I think you sell Aptera short if you deny just this possible use case for the 100 kw Aptera.
MemberApril 8, 2022 at 11:37 am
You make a good point that V2H is a legitimate reason to get a 100KWh pack, but I don’t think it’s a good reason to get one in an Aptera. C.A. pointed out that there is a lack of standards for V2H so they can’t attempt it yet, this version of the car isn’t going to have it. Having to drive around an extra 400lbs of weight just so that you can do V2H doesn’t make sense to me, it costs efficiency and it doesn’t add any transportation capability.
For a vehicle that has to have a giant pack just to get around the block, i.e. an F150 or the Hummer, also using it for V2H helps to justify buying such an inefficient vehicle. I would go farther, I would say that the best case for buying a Hummer would be to buy it solely for V2H, i.e. park it in your driveway and use it for V2H and never drive it (at 1.1 miles per KWh). If you wanted a 212KWh home battery the Hummer would be the cheapest way to get it, If I’m not mistaken 200KWh of Tesla Power Walls would cost you twice as much.
MemberApril 8, 2022 at 12:59 pm
We’ve still not communicated 😉 … What I was suggesting is that things are happening very quickly and the V2H is not as interesting as V2G as a electric utility could do some proprietary things with the V2G setup that would make especially valuable to them. (We in the south know about the switch the EMC provides to cut off or limit use during the peak times. If you require connection a certain number of peak use hours and have access to the combined power of the batteries in your ‘area’ a utility, IF THEY COULD COUNT ON THE STORAGE, could avoid building new power plants at hundreds of millions of dollars a piece.) It also leverages their investment in renewable solar and wind power.
To counter your argument that the better mobile battery storage comes in the form of a pickup with a 200kw battery that gets 1.1kw/m vs. the Aptera’s .1kw/m … which vehicle would you, as an electric utility, be more inclined to provide ‘free electricity’ for transportation?
IF, and yes it is a big IF … a utility were to see the benefit of selling a vehicle with abundant reserve storage and earning a profit in the process … AND … makes a deal with the buyers that let them really utilize that storage in exchange for free electricity … they might like the idea of ‘making money’ selling their customers the battery storage the utility company needs to use in their smart grid.
The ‘customers’ might also like having unfettered access to a commuter vehicle that goes 1000 miles on a charge and operates – on or off the grid – for free. It is not impossible that the electric utilities might not lease a proprietary dual use, special use vehicle to consumers.
There is more than one way to skin an Aptera.
I’ll admit that this whole scheme is to manipulate the market to the advantage of the electric utilities that are part of our collective effort to transform to a sustainable transportation AND energy distribution industry.
After all it was manipulation by the oil industry that ‘bought up’ the municipal mass transit systems (trolly’s) that created our dependence on the ICE-power, oil-fueled, vehicles ‘for profit.’
Part of the appeal of Aptera is the freedom provided by a vehicle that generates its own power from the sun for free. Extending the ‘free’ aspect of fueling transportation is consistent with Aptera’s overall goal.
BTW, what I heard Chris say about the 1000 mile battery version is that it is ‘down the road’ a bit when V2? standards are set. I’m just saying there is a 20% chance that some hot-shot in the electric utility industry will see Aptera as a unique opportunity in rolling out at least one version of the smart grid of the future. Said a little differently, if an Electric Utility went to Ford to suggest a proprietary program that would allow the utility to fully use remote battery storage, they laugh them out of the room for no other reason traditional auto makers are too loyal to the oil and gas industry to lead in this kind of innovative shift.
MemberApril 8, 2022 at 3:47 pm
Good discussion! Australia is already doing research on incorporating EVs into a smart grid architecture. The U.S. Smart Electric Power Alliance (SEPA) is sending a team to Australia in June to see how the study is progressing. The effort was highlighted at the most recent SEPA national meeting in San Diego. I believe they may try to establish a similar program in the US using some of the recently allocated funds for EV infrastructure development.
You just outlined an excellent business opportunity for some enterprising power group to get the jump on the upgrade of technology.
- This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Jonah Jorgenson. Reason: add SEPA reference
MemberApril 8, 2022 at 10:33 am
A good spectrum of options. They cover the low end with the industry requisite 250 mile range, the high end 1,000 mile range that no other EV can achieve at the moment, and two intermediate ranges. More than enough options for anybody’s needs.
Aptera marketing conducted a market analysis in conjunction with engineering, production, and finance to determine the best ranges to offer. The decision must take into account all of these interests to determine the best battery range points to engineer, produce, and sell.
MemberApril 8, 2022 at 11:56 am
No EV manufacturer has ever offered this – there are too many technological hurdles to overcome. Think about it in ICE terms: Has any vehicle with a 10 gallon fuel tank ever come with the option of installing a larger tank after purchase?
MemberApril 10, 2022 at 7:48 am
NIO uses swapable batteries, they have battery swapping stations in China. It seems like a crazy idea and it would make no sense here but it’s popular in China.
MemberApril 10, 2022 at 9:14 am
The NIO system interchanges identical battery packs – NIO drivers can’t select a pack with a different capacity than the one with which the vehicle was built.
MemberApril 10, 2022 at 9:58 am
That’s not true, they can upgrade the battery. It’s battery as a service so you can choose a different sized battery.
From their website,
On-demand battery subscription for flexible capacity
Longer range in one swap
MemberApril 12, 2022 at 8:56 pm
This article states that Nio drivers can’t yet switch capacity but that, eventually, they’ll be able to select either a 75 kWh or 100 kWh pack subscription. What isn’t clear is if drivers can switch back and forth between capacities. https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/chinese-electric-car-maker-nio-would-share-battery-swap-tech-other-automakers#:~:text=Two%20free%20swaps%20are%20included,and%20Germany%20later%20this%20year.
MemberApril 10, 2022 at 9:29 am
True, there was never a replacement fuel tank that was larger that was offered by a mfg, but I’ve had high top vans in the past. That was when I was introduced to dual-tank technology. Seems the standard 20 gallon tank on and E-150 is fine for putting around in delivery mode but the cross-country treks these living rooms on wheels made needed an extra 15-gal bladder to make from one state to another without waking the baby.
MemberApril 10, 2022 at 12:54 pm
My parents’ 1977 Chevy Van had an optional 33 gallon gas tank. With the correct parts it could have been swapped into a van that had been equipped with the standard 20-something gallon one. But that was a long time ago, and gas tanks now are designed to more closely fit into the space available for them.
MemberApril 17, 2022 at 12:35 am
Renault did it with their ZOE for a short period of time, but he battery itself was leased. You could upgrade from a 22kWh to a 41kWh battery without changing the car itself.
MemberApril 10, 2022 at 11:59 am
I’d like to know how much battery I would be purchasing for each range model.
MemberApril 10, 2022 at 5:54 pm
Until the specifics of the battery builds are a matter of historical fact, Aptera uses the shorthand of 10m/kw and defines each model by its mileage goal. At this stage of the game the relative efficiency of the platform may migrate to 10.1 – 10.5m/kw which gives you a fudge factor from the straight spec of a 25kw battery to the 100kw battery for the 1000 mile version.
Said differently, the 400 mile version at current efficiency, to meet the promise would require a battery a little bit larger than 38kw which returns, at 10.5m/kw, 399 miles.
I like this management approach to naming as an investor because it puts the business end foursquare behind the brand’s efficiency creed.
Aptera could get away with delivering a 35kw battery if they can squeeze just a little more efficiency from the package 🙂 … and that is a rather interesting way to save money and make profit.
MemberApril 10, 2022 at 8:19 pm
A good marriage between engineering and business! Wouldn’t be surprised to see this strategy behind the curtain. Even with this the margin will shrink with the runaway inflation we are experiencing. Time to pull another rabbit out of the hat
MemberApril 12, 2022 at 12:27 pm
This time next year ??
Having watched several interviews with aptera employees , they have stated that they intend to build the 400 mile vehicles first since those were the bulk of the pre orders That being said, if they are able to produce 40 a day and 50% of the orders were 400 mile range cars… it’s 6 months before they start making the others , that’s with 0 supply chain issues
MemberApril 12, 2022 at 5:12 pm
Aptera will start with the 400mi configuration. At period (TBD) they will add the 250 mile configuration and manufacture both 400 and 250 mile configurations simultaneously. Aptera will continue this process until all versions are manufactured simultaneously.
Simple math is not enough to understand the complexity of production scheduling or delivery expectations
MemberApril 17, 2022 at 4:56 am
See what Tesla did to the latest Y model with 4680 batteries. They lowered the range by building a much smaller battery pack…….
There was some deep thinking behind that decision…..
400 miles and a solar pack that is also deep thinking….