- ModeratorMarch 9, 2022 at 10:14 am
Just viewed the latest from Steve at Aptera Owners Club:
Several of his observations make good sense IMHO. I was intrigued by his informed speculation about the weights of the various Aptera battery packs and the resultant vehicle weights. He runs through a spreadsheet in the video, but here’s the gist of his guesstimates.
250 mile pack = about 350 lbs. pack and a 1,320 lb. vehicle
400 mile pack = about 550 lbs. pack and a 1,525 lb. vehicle
600 mile pack = about 825 lbs. pack and a 1,800 lb. vehicle
1000 mile pack =about 1375 lbs. pack and a 2,350 lb. vehicle
- MemberMarch 9, 2022 at 10:24 am
They have also said 1800 lb for 600m and 2200 for 1000m. This would be 10lb / kwh which is essentially state of the art. Also remember the batteries aren’t actually 25/40/60/100 due to their own weights impacting efficiency. The battery range is likely more likely 21 kwh – 105 kwh. Motormatchup has numbers and puts the lightest at ~1493lb and heaviest (with 100lb for AWD) at 2250 lb (without the driver).
- ModeratorMarch 9, 2022 at 11:03 am
Thanks for the additional data points, Curtis. It will be interesting to see how close these numbers are to the production vehicles when they are finally on the road.
- MemberMarch 9, 2022 at 2:24 pm
Also, keeping in mind that CA has said that the battery packs may not be those exact kWh sizes, IIIRC they will be tailored to match the mileage quoted for each model, as they validate the energy burn amounts.
- MemberMarch 9, 2022 at 2:20 pm
There’s also the question of packaging: If the cells are organized into modules and then the modules arranged into packs there’s a lot of packaging and bracing involved. Tesla’s current move toward “structural packs” will do away with a lot of extra weight.
Sandy Munro and Sabic are designing a “plastic” pack that’s stronger and lighter in weight than any currently available system, and includes built-in temperature conditioning and fire suppression.
- MemberMarch 10, 2022 at 7:45 pm
Lots of interesting points in the video. I lean towards the 400-600 miles, and the only benefit of a larger pack would be if I can use it for V2H. Which is not currently an option, it seems.
- MemberAugust 19, 2022 at 3:37 am
Just buy a V2H inverter separately. It need not be located in your vehicle, in fact it is _better_ if it is not.
V2H requires a 100-200A inverter, and most such inverters work extremely well with the 350vdc batteries in the Aptera. 350vdc = 240vac peak. Prices range from $300-$800 for 3 phase 240v, or split phase 240v in listings in Alibaba, to $2k-$10k for listings in the US market. It will take 6 hours of running the A/C to drain your 250mile Aptera dead, all you need from Aptera is an access panel for the buss bars, and for the cheaper split phase inverters, access to the midpoint of the battery.
The identical technology that is used to drive the Elaphe motors is in the inverters for V2H for use in US and Canada, but fixed frequency and split phase instead of three phase variable frequency. The inverters from Elaphe are designed for 100A. It is in the realm for Aptera to provide this as an option in-house(sic) or at least in cooperation with Elaphe. However, the efficiency goals of Aptera Motors with their vehicles in essence strives to reduce the effectiveness and value of V2H. More efficient, smaller batteries, less usable power for V2H.
- MemberMarch 10, 2022 at 11:02 pm
I was looking at the very base 250 mile and no options as my sport run-about. The 25kwh battery charges very quickly compared to nearly every other EV out there. You can drive about 3 hours at highway speeds, take a break, charge up and go. I did settle on 400 miles with all the bells and whistles since my wife and I go on weekend trips every 3 months. We travel about 3 to 5 hours on those trips.
- MemberMarch 11, 2022 at 10:20 am
Great video! His thoughts match pretty close to what my experience has been with driving an ev. I have to say though, looking at his 5 things, Time, High Temp, Operating at max min state of charge, High Current and lastly Charge Cycles, the only one that doesn’t change with pack size is time.
High Temps can be brought on from charging or discharging at a rate that generates more heat than the cooling system can handle. Charging a larger battery pack at the same power as a smaller one will generate less heat. Same with discharging, same load will not tax a larger battery as much as a smaller one. If there’s less heat to dissipate there’s less chance of running at high temperatures.
Operating at high or low state of charge. With a larger pack it is less likely to get into those areas. Bigger packs have more miles available in the battery’s ‘sweet spot’.
High Current. The aptera’s max current draw is going to be pretty similar across the range of battery sizes. 3 wheel motors, resistance cabin heat, lights, music, whatever. The load compared to battery capacity, C rate, on a smaller pack will be larger than it would be on a larger pack if you are running all the same things. My little EV has a 100 ah battery at 190 volts. My max draw from the motor is 215 amps, a little over 2C. If my pack was four times larger the draw would be .5C. Maybe that’s wrong, math is hard.
Lastly is Usage, Charge Cycles. This one is pretty obvious. The 250 mile battery would need to be charged 4x more than the largest battery to cover the same number of miles.
I could be wrong about these things. My first hand experience with EVs is limited to a sample size of one.
I have LFP batteries in my car and they’ve lost about 25% of their capacity in 10 years. Plus the voltage sag is pretty dramatic now on cold winter days. I put a deposit on a 600 mile version because I’d like to have a solid 300 miles of range over the life of the car in whatever weather conditions I happen to run in to.
- MemberMarch 14, 2022 at 7:20 am
Those are the same reasons I went with the 600 mile version. I need a solid 250 mile winter highway range.
- MemberMarch 11, 2022 at 1:37 pm
For me the most suitable battery pack would be the 250 mile pack, since my daily commute is 6 miles in both directions. I don’t drive more than 4000-6000 miles per year with my personal car (we have another family car). I also go to work with my motorcycle when the weather allows, which is April to end of September.
But if we get the $7,500 tax credit I am getting the 400 mile pack 🙂 With that and with the 5% investors discount the cost of my Aptera would be $9,000 less than the MSRP. I don’t see any incentives in NJ, but hopefully we might get some by the time Aptera starts with the deliveries.
- MemberJuly 28, 2022 at 6:11 pm
I’m still ping-ponging about the size of the battery pack.
Perhaps I missed it in the previous comments, but what about “never charge”? Apteras can be thought of as an entirely solar-powered vehicle. A large battery pack can accumulate sun-charge to the point you never have to plug it in for normal commuting – FREE. Why treat this vehicle as a PHEV instead of SEV?
And if you want to take off on a long trip you still may not need to plug it in before, during or after.
And as HAS been mentioned, the larger battery packs mean a longer range PLUS a longer life.
I’m trying to save up to afford the largest pack. I don’t want this decision forced by loan rates, but that could still be the case.
- MemberJuly 28, 2022 at 6:22 pm
Personally I will rarely get much from solar and will just use the aptera as a highly efficient sports car. Unfortunately the vehicle looks too distinct and will be prone to vandalism soo I’ll be parking inside my garage anyway.
I’d love to see lfp since that would effectively negate any battery longevity argument. An extra 175lb for the 400 mile won’t kill the efficiency much and could save Aptera up to $2000 in material costs
- MemberJuly 28, 2022 at 6:34 pm
I wonder about the vandalism aspect also – envy is ugly, but prevalent. And being ~30 miles from the Mexico border, I wonder about theft. I only have a car port, not a garage. Maybe I need to buy a chain …
- MemberJuly 29, 2022 at 7:47 am
Or put siding on the open side and a roll-up door on the open end of the carport. Oh, also replace the carport roof with either clear Lexan or maybe ballistic glass! 😉
- This reply was modified 4 months ago by Dennis Swaney.
- MemberJuly 29, 2022 at 8:40 am
Perhaps transparent aluminum.
- ModeratorJuly 29, 2022 at 11:06 am
I gather you’re a Star Trek fan! Scotty could whip you up a batch…
- MemberJuly 29, 2022 at 11:14 am
Transparent aluminum is a real thing,
I think it’s used in the M1A1, it can stop a 50 cal BMG.
Don’t know if it was invented after the Star Trek movie, I think it was.
- This reply was modified 4 months ago by Joshua Rosen.
- MemberJuly 29, 2022 at 11:25 am
- ModeratorAugust 18, 2022 at 1:34 pm
Wow. If the Star Trek movie came out before it, that would be another amazing example of science fiction becoming science fact. It’s a great time to be alive.
- MemberJuly 28, 2022 at 9:01 pm
“400 mile pack = about 550 lbs. pack and a 1,525 lb. vehicle400 mile pack = about 550 lbs. pack and a 1,525 lb. vehicle”
Imagine if you add the claimed 0-60 “3.5sec” acceleration time of the AWD option (which I preordered) to this 1,525lb 400mi pack vehicle. That would be bat-out-of-hell fast. 😳
Now, what if you can unlock the detuned 50hp Elaphe hubs..
- MemberJuly 29, 2022 at 10:18 am
I’ve thought pretty hard about what size battery. My 5 yr old Leaf is strictly a commuter with 105 mile range when it was new. But that only lasted for the first summer. It is now down to 85 miles, a 20% drop in 5 years. Night driving eats the battery as does cold and hot. Sub freezing days will cut the range by another 30% to 40%. Here in the mid-west a zero degree day is not unheard of and that 40% drop is real, particularly coming home from work late with the lights on. I have a hard time making the round trip to the airport anymore, so I am very sensitive to range.
I want to be able to take this one on road trips so the 250 won’t hack it out of the box, that won’t get me anywhere. The 400 is really marginal. Figuring a realistic 20% drop for bad weather and battery wear after the first year and you are down to 320 and still dropping over time. We still don’t know that the AWD will do that I really NEED so that 320 is not a hard number, it could be less. That will get you maybe 4 hours of highway driving before lunch. Finding fast chargers is still hit and miss in the mid-west and then it may only be a 50A, so you may not get it back to fully charged during a basic lunch break in order to make it dinner or your destination. Hopefully the charger situation will improve by the time I get my Apterra, but I won’t hold my breath for it.
1000 mi is a great marketing point but not really necessary unless you are a real road warrior. The extra weight will cost efficiency. Note, it will also require a modification of the suspension, which is one of the big reasons it will be available last.
So, the 600 is what I am going for. I figure with any kind of decent lunch recharge, it has a good chance of lasting all day even on sub-freezing and 100 degree days. The 600 will give the flexibility to find decent fast charging stops even if they don’t fall exactly on your best meal breaks to provide unlimited range on those really long trips. I just don’t think the 400 will hold up to that goal for longer trips in the long run. I should think that 500 would make an interesting compromise.
I just charted out a trip to my daughters. The 400 would require an intermediate stop just to add a few extra miles, i.e. the 600 gets me there fine. Along the way there are plenty of CCS chargers but to find a Tesla means going off the road a ways to hunt it down. From what I have seen, Tesla puts there chargers in residential areas and not next to the freeway. However, at my daughter’s, the only fast charger in town is a Tesla and the only other public chargers are type 2’s at the local power company offices. From what I have seen 95% of all public chargers are type 2’s with J type connectors. In addition unless you own a Tesla, your home charger is likely to be a J type as well so that top half of the CCS is likely to be used the most. So as you see by my little story, it is reasonable to have both CCS and Tesla ports on the car.
As an aside, since I have a home charger, I have only used a public charger a couple of times, but near my home in the suburbs of KC, KS the only high speed charger anywhere close is a Tesla. The next closest ones are both about 25 miles away and are all CCS, there are lots of type 2’s around.
- MemberJuly 29, 2022 at 10:56 am
For AC charging the plug type on the car doesn’t matter. Tesla’s come with a Tesla to J1772 adapter and you can buy one from them for about $150. There are also J1772 to Tesla adapters available that allow CCS cars to AC charge on a Tesla destination charger. DC charging is where the plug type matters. Tesla sells a CCS1 adapter in Korea which allows Tesla’s that are CCS1 enabled to charge on a CCS1 Charger. They don’t sell them in the US yet but they are available on E-Bay. Tesla will probably release an adapter that allows CCS1 cars to charge at a Supercharger. They’ve said that they are going to open Superchargers up CCS1 cars but they haven’t said how. Will it just be a second cable on V4 Superchargers or will it be an adapter, they haven’t said.
As far as your reasoning goes about pack size, we are in agreement. I’ve also ordered the 600 mile version because it will allow me to go any place without planning. I can go anywhere with my Tesla but I always know in advance which Superchargers we are going to stop at. It’s not a particular inconvenience because we need to stop for bathroom breaks more frequently than the car needs to charge so we just combine the two. But I look forward to not planning and to just take our bathroom breaks at Duncan Donuts which are everywhere.
- MemberJuly 29, 2022 at 11:41 am
David – We’re debating the 600 vs 1000 milers, so trying to read up on all of the arguments. Had a question about your statement “1000 mi is a great marketing point but not really necessary unless you are a real road warrior. The extra weight will cost efficiency.” If it’s a 1000 mile vehicle, how is the extra weight costing efficiency? It’s still going to go 1000 miles at X mph (not sure but think it’s 60 mph they are using) even though it’s heavy. Are you thinking that it will lose a much larger % of range at higher speeds than the lighter vehicles?
We are definitely not road warriors, but we do live 80-100 miles from the city doctors we see three times per month at a minimum (this month we had five trips :-/ ). We want to use solar ONLY as much as possible, and have the location to pull it off IF we can make two round trips on battery alone. For rounding purposes,we’re figuring each round trip is 200 miles (we often fold in other stores and errands, and I leave hubby in the running car with the AC running while I do the legwork), with AC and expressway speeds of 70 mph. Still waiting to see the real world data on range reduction for those specific conditions, but I’m guessing that the 650 miler may be marginal if we need to keep the battery above 20% capacity.
- MemberJuly 29, 2022 at 12:16 pm
Efficiency and range are two different things. Efficiency is the measure of how many KWh it takes to go a mile, range is just the number of miles you can travel with the energy in the battery. We don’t have numbers for the 1000 mile version but they’ve been quoting a 100Wh/mile efficiency which we can assume is for the 400 mile version. They haven’t published an efficiency number for the 1000 mile version but it has to be worse. For the sake of argument lets assume it’s 5% worse, that’s a made up number I’m just using it for illustration. The 1000 mile version would then require 105Wh/mile. That means that you’ll have to charge it a little be longer and you’ll get a little less solar range.
Do you have home charging or will you be relying on public charging? If you have home charging then you’ll be fine with the 400 mile version and certainly the 600 mile version. You only need to do a 200 mile road trip which either one can do easily. With home charging you start out every day with a full battery, a 100% of your charging can be done at home. If you are planning on using public chargers only then you need to take into account how long it’s going to take to charge. The Aptera is going to have very slow DC charging, probably about 60KW. We have no idea what the charging curve is going to look like but every existing EV only charges at it’s peak rate for a short time and then the rate drops as the charge level climbs. Because the peak charge rate is so low I’m hopeful that the Aptera will be able to maintain it’s peak for most of the charging curve but we don’t know if that will be true. If you assume an average of 50KW charging then a full 100KWh charge will take two hours. However if you assume that you’ll only add 250KWh during a charging session, that’s only 30 minutes. The 600 mile version, and maybe the 400 mile version, will work fine for that. Assume that you’ll have to spend a total of 30 minutes charging to cover those trips. If there is a charger along your route then all the better, you can make one 30 minute stop or two 15 minute stops.
- MemberAugust 1, 2022 at 3:43 pm
Joshua – Thank you for the clarification on efficiency and range. I don’t think I got across my point that we NEVER want to plug in. We want to operate EXCLUSIVELY ON SOLAR. Otherwise, we could have just gotten an ev years ago. Our yard has plenty of sun, and we do have a 120 v plug available on the exterior of the house if necessary. We just don’t see using power generated by the electric company as a huge advancement over filling up at the gas station. On the other hand, solar (Aptera) IS a giagantic difference in reducing carbon. Why would we ever plug in instead of going total solar, if that’s what the vehicle is built for?
As for the range/efficiency calculations, range is our determining factor on the size of battery we choose. I realize that the efficiency does affect range, of course, but we need to drive a specific number of miles per month, using AC at expressway speeds. When Aptera comes out with some real-world data on the range loss for using the AC at 70 mph, we should be able to make the decision on 650 or 1000 miles.
We still have a learning curve on all of this, so thanks to everyone on this forum!
- MemberAugust 1, 2022 at 4:51 pm
Agree with all your points.
- MemberAugust 1, 2022 at 5:39 pm
Laura, if you are going to your doctor 3 times a month at 200 miles per trip and you insist on driving at 70+ miles per hour with air conditioning in a heavy weight 1000 mile range Aptera you will certainly not approach 100 watt hours per mile. There are estimates out there (charts) that show speed versus efficiency and AC or cold versus efficiency but I don’t remember where to find these. But let’s assume your speed, AC or heater, and extra weight of unneeded battery cause a 30% reduction in efficiency. Your three 200 mile trips to the doctor will be equivalent to 600×1.3=780 miles at normal efficiency driving. Can you collect 780 miles of range from the sun in 30 days or 26 miles per day? On a good month, maybe, but on every month (winter sun is lower and less hours, clouds are going to block some of your sunshine) maybe not. If your doctor trips are spread out evenly over the month, you might be better off to save the weight penalty (and money) by getting the 600 mile range. If the three doctor appointments will be all in the same week, then even with the 1000 mile range its going to be difficult. If the 600 mile range vehicle is 10% more efficient than the heavy weight 1000 mile range vehicle, then you don’t have to collect that extra 10% range from sunshine 10% of that 780 miles per month is 78 miles you can save with the lighter vehicle.
Also consider that the advertised “up to 40 miles range per day from the sun” is in parking lot conditions. I can tell you how improve that if you don’t mind moving the car 3-4 times a day and don’t mind leaving your rear hatch open. You might want to sew up a curtain to close off the open hatch to dust storms and bugs. Also if you don’t mind driving in the slow lane, driving at 60 or even 55 like I do, you could save another 10%. I don’t know where you live so I can’t suggest you modify your use of air conditioning but certainly setting it at 78 degrees instead of 65 degrees is not unthinkable. Your goal of ONLY solar charging is the same as my goal but I intend to do it with a light weight 250 mile range Aptera. But my longest weekly trip is only 100 miles. Your goal is possible, certainly in the summer, not in New England where I am, but in the Southwest. Winter may be more of a challenge if you are up North.
I am an efficiency champion so if you need some more tips, I’d be glad to help you out.
Here is another thought I had after I originally posted this comment. I came back to edit it. If your main need for the car is doctor appointments, then the car will be sitting in the sun in your yard most of the time, right? Even without moving the car 3-4 times a day and leaving the rear hatch open, you could set up a few permanently mounted solar panels near where you plan to park your Aptera. Each time you park, plug the panels into the port that Aptera supplies for this purpose. If Aptera doesn’t come with this port you could also just add an inverter and plug the output into the AC charging plug. Even more reason to stay away from the heavy weight 1000 mile range version. Solar panels are cheap, batteries are expensive and heavy to carry around.
- This reply was modified 4 months ago by Francis Giroux.
- MemberAugust 10, 2022 at 1:30 pm
Francis – thank you for your thoughts. We will be discussing this at length, I suspect, but we have plenty of time to do just that.
A large portion of our yard has full sun for almost the entire day in the Florida Keys – we’re about as south as you can get. Cloud cover is about 1/3 of what the mainland gets, if that. We can park at right angles to the sun’s path for maximum exposure. Right now, we are getting a full 12 hours of sun, and on the shortest day we will get 9-ish hours. It’s pretty good for solar production, although I do wonder about salt air corrosion (another discussion entirely). I’m not sure how many hours they are figuring to get that 40 miles, but I’d be willing to bet we could get or exceed it most of the time.
We keep our AC in the house at 81, and the truck is a bit lower at 74-76 because it’s dark blue and collects heat. Since the Aptera looks like it will have dark blue solar cells on the Luna (yay! I hate black), my original thinking was that that would basically be the same situation, but if they are turning the radiation into electricity instead of heat, perhaps my assumption is flawed? Regardless, the exterior temperature on the dark roads down here is usually in the mid- to high-90’s, and the temps on the mainland are usually +5 degrees higher than the Keys, so AC is a must. We are willing to sacrifice effeciency for comfort.
South Florida drivers routinely do 70-80 mph because the speed limit is 65 on the 18-Mile Stretch (US1 leaving the Keys), the Turnpike and I-95 Expressway (both in Miami-Dade County). I do drive in the slow lane of the Turnpike most of the time, doing 65-70 because our truck is a 2002 and I want to be nice to her. However, merging traffic is pretty insane, as most drivers are very aggressive, compulsive tailgaters and/or just plain bad here. We don’t drive 70 mph for the entire trip, but since we do run the AC while in stop-and-go traffic (about 1/4 of the trip) and I tend to leave hubby in the car napping in the AC while I do quick shopping stops, I figured that would kind of be about the same as driving 70 mph for our purposes here.
The AWD is also going to take a toll on the range but we feel that the extra control in rain is worth it from a safety standpoint.
Our long trips are usually spread out over the month, and our local travel is almost always less than 10 miles a couple of times a week, so I suspect we are kind of on the border of being total solar if we get the 650 miler.
Oh – one other factor to consider is delivery time. If the 1000 miler takes another year, we don’t want to wait that long. Hubby will be 92 at the end of this year, so every month counts. This will be the last car we buy, so we want to make sure we choose wisely.
Your suggestion that we get exra solar panels is excellent. We will definitely consider doing that. I wonder if Aptera will sell panels of their solar cells to owners as an extra option?
- MemberAugust 1, 2022 at 7:27 pm
My take on range is a little different. My choice is for the 600 mi. version for a couple of reasons. First is the common one that it allows me to make a 900+ mile trip each way with one stop. I make this trip a few times a year. The second reason is if treated right it would result in fewer cycles on the battery. Lets say I make a 50 mi. Trip twice a week. If I park in a garage (yeah I know) I could go easily a month between charges. This would reduce the number of cycles on the battery pack and keep it at a mid range charge. Much better for battery longevity.
- MemberAugust 2, 2022 at 3:05 pm
BTW — the lifecycle of the battery would probably be better if you recharged every 100 miles than if you ran it all the way down and recharged after 500 miles. If you’ll look at the life cycle of lithium batteries, they’re always specified at a particular depth of discharge,usually something like 80% or 90%. If you recharge at 50%, the number of recharges goes up significantly. Usually 2X. If you recharge at 80%, it goes even higher. While not the Aptera, my LiFePO4 24V 200AH camper batteries are 3000 recharges at 80%, 7000 at 50%, and it just says >10,000 at 25%
- MemberAugust 2, 2022 at 2:57 pm
Consider that there are basically 2 types of driving: Local and Road Trip. Local driving — I’m driving back and forth to work, visiting friends, movies, sporting events, concerts. I’m going to parks — Essentially I can draw a 50-75 mile range circle around my home and all my Local Driving is in that range. 250 miles covers it, although I’d argue that 400 miles gives you piece of mind. You’re charging at home, and think “Slurpee” when you see a gas station.
Then there’s Road Trip. I’m visiting family (for me 286 miles or 320 miles one way). With a 250 mile Aptera (or Tesla or whatever), I’ve got to plan that. I’m planning one way travel and I probably need to stop somewhere for 15-20 minutes to top off so I can make that 320 mile trip. I’m arriving at my destinate nearly empty. But that’s fine — I can most likely recharge at my destination: my family’s house, or I expect Hotels and AirBnB’s to soon become “EV Friendly” with build-in charging ports that I can use (If I was them, I’d charge an extra $20 — 50KWh would only cost them $5, so they’d make money).
Now — consider the same 286mil or 320 mile road trip in the 600Mile Aptera. I’m not even bothering to stop at a gas station unless I want my Slurpee. I’m recharging at the ends of my trip. I’ve got plenty of range to not worry about making that distance. The through never crosses my mind.
But … if I had the 1KMile Aptera. In both trips, I’m not even bothering to charge at my family’s house. I’m making the whole darned round trip plus excursions while there and only plugging in back at my home.
Then consider my loco trip: Dallas to Colorado. In a 1KMile Aptera — that’s in range. I recharge at both ends, instead of filling my gas ICE car up 3 times. Assuming I want to reserve about 100 miles, that’s a one-way trip of 900 miles. That’s Dallas to Tallahassee,Florida (860 miles). Dallas to Chicago (920 miles). St Lewis, Mempsis, New Orleans. Starting in Dallas, absolutely anywhere in Texas, New Mexico,Oklahoma, Kansas, Missourri, South Dakota, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Half of Tennessee and Kentucky — all of those are in range of an 1KMile Aptera. Sure — you can fly 2 people from Dallas to Chicago for about $600-$1000, you can drive it in an Aptera for about $40.
Or to put it in easier terms — with a 1KMile Aptera, half the country is in range of you. I’d argue that for the price difference between a 250Mile Aptera and a 400 mile aptera, the simple piece of mind for road trips is worth the price. I’d likely say that if you do take longer range trips — 250-300-350 miles — the price difference between the 600 mile and 1Kmile Aptera — I’d pick the 1Kmile Aptera. Now — it’s just a decision between the 400 mile and 1Kmile –> which boils down to: Do I want to recharge at my destination or do I want to not worry about it and just recharge when I get home
- This reply was modified 4 months ago by Jeffrey Reynolds Reynolds.
- MemberAugust 2, 2022 at 3:05 pm
- ModeratorAugust 2, 2022 at 3:53 pm
Thanks, Jeffrey. You laid out a detailed story which is always a useful addition to any decision making. Numbers can be so dry. You made it come alive. Kudos to you.
- MemberAugust 2, 2022 at 3:54 pm
The problem is if road trips are on expressways you won’t get the 400, 600,or 1,000 mi if you are traveling at interstate speeds (70 – 75). You will get something less based on a number of variables and need to incorporate the deceased mileage in your calculation. Back to planning!
- ModeratorAugust 2, 2022 at 5:10 pm
Ah, the speed variable. Point taken, John. I always do 60 mph max on interstates. Drives my lead foot wife crazy. I plod along in the far right lane and am happy to let traffic pass me by. Of course, 60 mph will still suck more electrons than 40-45 mph which is probably what the 400-600-1,000 mile range simulations assume. And there’s the infamous Aptera aerodynamic efficiency factor. Probable that 60 mph won’t extend the range that much as compared to driving 70.
- MemberAugust 2, 2022 at 7:37 pm
Very prudent approach Ray. Would that we all could develop such self discipline.
- MemberAugust 2, 2022 at 8:01 pm
One of my cars is a 2012 Ford Fiesta SES and if I set cruise control for 55mph I have gotten 46mpg. Very good for an ICE. As I get up to 65mph, it drops to 38-42mpg depending on the wind. I used to be a automotive technician and keep the ignition immaculate and can feel many failing parts before the electronics detects them. I am really looking forward to hypermiling my Model 3 and Aptera Roadster when they arrive.
- ModeratorAugust 10, 2022 at 2:27 pm
Nice mpg on that Fiesta, Vernon. I had two “Fiesta’s”: a 1979 Fiesta and a 1991 Festiva, the one built by Mazda for Ford. Both of them were easy on my gas budget and both were three door hatchback designs like the Aptera. I know you hairsplitters out there will not like me referring to the Aptera as a hatchback but how about “hatchback-like”?
- MemberAugust 18, 2022 at 1:17 pm
60MPH on the highway is fine. There is a saying from my motorcycle days:
The fun is in the corners. The cops are in the straights.
- MemberAugust 16, 2022 at 9:56 pm
I chose the 600 mile version with long trips in mind (++weeks of electric nomad mode FTW!). Think of Bilbo: “I want to see Mountains Gandalf!”. With let’s call it <500 mi range at freeway speeds I figure that I still have LOTS of buffer to find a place to charge, so I can charge when and where I want to stop. I think of it like having twice as many options as a car that has half the range, and so no range anxiety. I’m planning to sleep in it, so I could often charge all night at an RV park, adding ~225 miles (also could use heating/AC). That leaves a 30-45 minute fast charge somewhere during the day if my fuzzy math is right. Around home I don’t drive that many miles (no commute), so the solar charging will keep it charged. Even the occasional trip into L.A. or San Diego won’t matter. I can’t tell you how happy that idea makes me feel.
- MemberAugust 10, 2022 at 9:41 pm
- MemberAugust 17, 2022 at 8:12 am
Scaling linearly from the 400 mile pack (we know the cell count is 6×416) and accounting a mere 15% for all non-cell battery components ( the battery alone will weigh 1090 lb. Scaling linearly means doing nothing to account for range loss due to weight which means the 1000 mile will either be under range or the “400 mile” is more like 460 miles. The Mirage was a very light car and EVs are typically heavy due to batteries. Smaller Apteras manage to be incredibly lightweight but that is because the base vehicle is light, batteries are relatively small and their pack overhead is apparently very lightweight.
Note: The model 3 long range pack is 75 kwh and weights 1060lb. That is about 50% overhead in the pack weight for non-cell components; achieving 15% would be an incredible feat.
- MemberAugust 16, 2022 at 11:15 pm
Something nobody ever says: I wish I had less range
Just a thought
- MemberAugust 17, 2022 at 8:34 pm
Which Aptera configuration supports 500 pounds of passengers and cargo? If it’s the 250 mile pack, then my wife and I need to start dieting immediately so we can lose a total of 200 pounds to offset the weight of the 400 mile pack. If the 600 mile pack supports 500 pounds of passengers and cargo, then would going with the 250 mile pack gain an additional 480 pounds of cargo? I understand why the 1000 mile pack would require extra suspension (which also adds extra weight), but would it also be able to carry 500 pounds of passengers and cargo on top of half a ton of extra battery weight?
- MemberAugust 17, 2022 at 8:57 pm
All variants are spect’d with a recommended 500 pound total weight limit. The variants are engineered so their performance meets a consistent level regardless of battery size. That doe not mean they will not operate outside the weight limit. It means there will be some degradation of published performance if transporting more than 500 pounds.
- MemberAugust 18, 2022 at 1:36 pm
I wonder how difficult and what components would be needed. If someone is frequently near or over the 500lb limit it might make sense to stiffen the suspension a bit (potentially similar to that of a 600 mile battery suspension when driving a 400 mile pack). They likely tune the suspension expecting ~150-250lb in the vehicle; if you almost always have 400lb in the vehicle then stepping to a stiffer suspension would likely help vehicle responsiveness.
- MemberAugust 18, 2022 at 1:43 pm
Gabriel Hijackers to the rescue?
- MemberAugust 18, 2022 at 3:35 pm
Makes sense. That could be a task for their advertised mobile service to make sure it is done correctly with the right tools and parts.
I am not really sure that the same performance will be achieved with the different battery pack sizes and drive configurations (Two wheel vs. All wheel drive) you are probably vs better judge of that than me.
- This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by John Malcom. Reason: Added idea
- MemberAugust 19, 2022 at 11:47 am
It will be interesting how they approach the engineering to achieve a constant cargo capacity when GVWR the curb weight can differ by a factor approaching 2x. Spring rates, shock valving, suspension hardware, bushing compression, mounting points at the fuselage, braking force all would be factored in. It wont be a case of just throwing on a set of airshocks. Of course one could spec it all to the heaviest options, but then it would be a bone jarring squirrelly ride in a 250 mile version of the car.
In addition a delta of as much as 1000 pounds in a base 1300 pound car raises significant questions regarding weight distribution. Weight bias will likely change. Because the Apter is not flat and images suggest more batteries placed rearward (higher) as range increases the center of gravity will be elevated. Combining these changes will alter steering characteristics, roll and pitch as well. These are not insurmountable issues but they are significant.
- MemberAugust 19, 2022 at 3:05 am
Aptera’s will be more worth their weight than any other EV. However we will see how much more waiting we have to do.
- MemberAugust 19, 2022 at 10:41 am
+1 on using weight and wait in the same posting.
- MemberAugust 19, 2022 at 10:21 am
I opted for 400 miles.
I am in Florida and my house is solar powered with a daily surplus most days. Retired, my daily trips are dhort few and many are run on my electric bike. Winter range is not a consideration, a/c might be an issue but I will wait and see what the power draw looks like in production examples.
I wont be leaving my car out in the driveway all day. Too hot, too much UV damage here in FL. Consequently, solar body panels mean little to me as I already have a solar power source for charging and, worst case, I put a couple or three more panels up and dwarf the car’s supposed solar collection.
As a consequence, it is the efficiency of the Aptera that appeals. So lighter weight is more appealing. Ergo a smaller battery pack is more appealing. Ballancing that, I occasionally might use the Aptera for a modest road trip (something I am gonna have to reevaluate as data on ride quality comes out). I need enough range to get me to a level 2 destination charger for a 300 mile one way leg on an overnight stay. 400 is the sweet spot for me, especially if those are first in the queue😉.
This focus on range always seems silly to me unless you are taking a very large number of long trips. I can’t see lugging around more weight, reducing efficiency, increasing component wear and tear, reducing braking efficiency etc. on every short haul trip fir the promise of a once month or less long road trip.
- MemberAugust 19, 2022 at 10:51 am
Regeneration energy, FWD or AWD, compensates for the weight in energy recovery during braking. Braking efficiency is a non-factor with respect to weight. AWD will eliminate the need for any friction braking.
Also, I expect regenerative braking and reduced individual tire wear (lead foots notwithstanding), reduced brake servicing, will be the AWD plus, to the added road gear minus in reduced range/efficiency.
- MemberAugust 19, 2022 at 10:59 am
“braking efficiency is a non-factor with respect to weight”. Interesting statement given that dividing the vehicle’s weight by the total brake effort, and then multiply the number by 100 to gets one the brake efficiency percentage. In a panic stop, with tire size (and swept area of brakes) being equal, extra weight matters, physics is still in play and it matters at an alarming rate as vehicle speed increases.
With respect to regenerative braking, the motors are the same across weights of battery packs, ergo the energy conversion rate of those motors at maximum remains constant across the battery weight options. So heavier cars, with unchanged motors will regenerative brake differently than lighter cars at the motor’s maximum conversion rate. The bleed-off is finite.
I agree that awd will regeneratively brake differently from FWD (another energy conversion unit , more contact surface). I have no interest in the added cost of AWD though.
- MemberAugust 19, 2022 at 12:28 pm
A good car can get you stopped from 60 mph to 0 in 137 feet. You will find _all_cars light and heavy doing this. Increased weight does not affect braking efficiency. The coefficient of friction on your tires (size does not matter) to road surface, and discs are all that matter.
You can select tires that have a better coefficient of friction. I used to buy these for my rally car, cost $$$, lasted a few thousand miles, sticky as $#!+.
The AWD Aptera can get you from 0-60 in 140 feet, or 3.5 seconds, so it can conversely stop you in the same distance. So the motors alone on the AWD can stop the Aptera in world class time/distance without even dusting the friction brakes.
- MemberAugust 19, 2022 at 12:59 pm
I am of the understanding (perhaps wrong) that the 1000 and 600 are going to use different type of batteries to reduce weight so the spreadsheet is likely outdated. This is off an announcement not in English a week or two ago. This will also mean the the 250 and 400 models will be more than likely be produced first since the factory for those packs is already built and the 600/1000 is not.
- MemberAugust 19, 2022 at 2:28 pm
On the types of batteries, As far as I know, nothing along those lines has been heard from Aptera. If you have any supporting links or better information, it can be reviewed. Otherwise this is only wild speculation.
- MemberAugust 19, 2022 at 2:03 pm
My approach to the battery size choice is different than any I have heard so far. I have elected to go for the 60kwh and all wheel drive, with full solar. What I need is a 25kwh 2 wheel drive. That would suffice for most of my needs, but fewer of my wants. I have a heavy foot, but have never had a super responsive vehicle. I think that it will be a blast to punch it way more than I should. I think that this demand surge will be easier on the larger battery and generate less heat. Same as charging – less heat as power is spread across more cells. If they use the identical cooling system for all variants, then this may be an incorrect assumption. So I certainly could be wrong in my thinking, but there are some other considerations. If there are delays in getting the 60kwh and delays in getting the AWD then I am hoping they can be the same delay days of doing without an Aptera. Also I believe that a little heavier vehicle may be a better ride for me personally. I have not made a final decision on the full solar and won’t until I see the view from both models. My plan is to never charge if I can get away with it. If I am wrong about this, please let me down gently, don’t just burst my bubble!🙃
- ModeratorAugust 19, 2022 at 2:16 pm
Interesting notion of the demand surge of a heavy right foot being “easier” on the battery, Glenn. I am curious to hear from some of the battery wonks about the science.