EV Incentives

[jesthorbjorn]

I am not picking anything new, or at least unanticipated from this piece. I admit I don’t understand the distinction between “consumer credit” and “commercial credit” that the article brings up.

Generally speaking, the IRAs agency in increasing uptake of EVs is good and the pressure it applies to bring the tech base to build those EVs in the US is good also.

I don’t see this latest news as any kind of a death knell to Aptera. The IRA is an unfortunate counter weight to Aptera’s success but no more so now than it has been. The big, moneyed interests are the assured winners; same as with most everything else that comes out of Washington.

[dan-stevens]

I need to dig up the actual treasury statement, but if I just read the yahoo article, this is actually GREAT news for Aptera, as in perhaps on a lease, it will get the $7500 tax credit (not on a purchase).

The article states:
The U.S. Treasury Department said on Thursday that electric vehicles leased by consumers can qualify starting Jan. 1 for up to $7,500 in commercial clean vehicle tax credits

Since this is clearly a work around for many other requirements and the fact that Aptera is an Electric Vehicle, and on a lease, it is a commercial purchase, it should be eligible, even with 3 wheels.

Of course, as I tell others, the devil is in the details. I’d like to find the actual treasury ruling on this since frequently, stuff is left out.

Also, I heard this morning that the Tesla Model Y is out, its not classified as an SUV unless its a 7 seater and because of this, it has the lower MSRP cap which it is over. As a 7 seater, it does qualify.

[craig-merrow]

So technically, I could lease an Aptera, qualify for the tax credit, then opt to purchase the vehicle at the end of the lease. Not sure if that’s viable, just tossing the idea out there.

[dan-stevens]

Given that my hypothesis that this potentially could open up Aptera for a credit, and if so, and if Aptera creates Aptera Finance (no normal lease company will do these leases) then yes, you could.

What the Treasury Department announced is consumers can in fact get the $7500 credit applied to a lease of an EV that does not qualify for other reasons, such as not made in the US, doesn’t meet battery specs, etc.

Because in a lease, the actual purchase is done by a business, the finance company, not the individual, it qualifies under the business terms which are far more lenient now than the purchase terms.

So, if a whole bunch of stars align and that alignment doesn’t cause a Tsunami, then yes, you should be able to lease for 3 years and then buy it.

[john-langstrand]

https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/manufacturers-and-models-for-new-qualified-clean-vehicles-purchased-in-2023-or-after

Have we moved forward at all on this issue? Any chance we will be qualified by the time the launch version starts shipping?

[harry-parker]

I’ve heard nothing. The current law excludes many vehicles, including all 2 and 3 wheeled ones. What do you think the chances are a new EV tax law will get passed in time in this congress?

[bryan.bowes]

The money doesn’t go to the consumer nor does the dealership have to give the credit to the lessee, since the dealership owns the car it goes straight into the pockets of the dealerships owner. It will not be passed on to the consumer.

[craig-merrow]

U.S. Treasury makes more Tesla, Ford, GM EVs eligible for tax credits (msn.com)https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/u-s-treasury-makes-more-tesla-ford-gm-evs-eligible-for-tax-credits/ar-AA174JPG?cvid=ad80b87fc1254347b5ff24d16048c427

[_-T]

Aptera runs with proverbial weights on their ankles. Companies that begin in difficult environments prosper all the more when those weights come off.

[curtis-cibinel]

Wish they had simply not had an IRA tax incentive and had taxed gas cars instead. Best thing for Aptera realistically would be the program being repealed entirely. EV demand isn’t really a problem but the externalities of environmental/health impact needs to be offset. The IRA is picking winner rather than punishing new ICE vehicles and letting the people decide what alternatives work best for them (including potentially keeping reasonably efficient gas cars on the road rather than replacing them with new ones)

[john-young]

Because the IRA didn’t include it the chances of passing a stand alone bill for 2/3 wheeled tax credits in the next two years is zero. Maybe if dems can get all three again in 2026 it could be back on the table but republicans are still sore about how dems rammed the IRA through. There could be state and even local incentives so stay on top of that in your region. The fact is that we will all be paying full price for our Aptera but nothing for the sun beams!

[joshua-rosen]

Aptera is going to have to survive without subsidies, it’s not going to change even if the Dems do retake the House. The autocycle bill in the Massachusetts legislature was killed in committee last year, that was done by Democrats, there aren’t enough Republicans in the MA State house to fill one table in the State House cafeteria. MA has a $3500 rebate for EVs no motorcycles qualify and by MA law the Aptera is a motorcycle. Strangely fuel cell vehicles qualify even though though the nearest hydrogen fueling station is 3000 miles away in California.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by  Joshua Rosen.

[craig-merrow]

I was under the impression that Aptera had someone lobbying Congress about this.

[Mike-Mars]

They do, but the odds of success are low. Aptera hasn’t got the spare cash to pay off enough congressmen and senators, whereas Detroit has plenty.

[george-hughes]

I understand your cynicism over our political circumstance.

What folks need to realize is that on one level, this isn’t personal – just intensely political.

And just who is behind all this ignorance and stupidity?

The answer is the fossil fuel industry and they’re on the ropes. They have been resisting doing the right thing because, to them, drilling, pumping, refining, distributing and supporting the industries that use their products is the right thing – for the bottom line.

These folks have political enemies.

Among those political enemies of the fossil fuel industry is that part of the electric generation and distribution companies that have embraced renewables.

You begin to understand their political power when you see, for instance, the Electric Membership Cooperatives – member owned not for profit utilities – that serve 56% of the landmass of the contiguous lower 48 states serving primarily rural and suburban areas in the south, mid-west and west.

These folks have some political clout. I know because unlike every other non-profit these entities can obtain actual cash from the treasury in lieu of tax credits because as a non-profit doesn’t have to pay taxes. This was one of several provisions that specifically benefit electric co-ops that couldn’t do so until passage in ’21 of the IRA.

I should note these entities also have community development, including fostering resilience of the grid and fostering rapid de-carbonization of not only electric generation through solar and wind but the power storage (batteries) to make these green sources more capable.

I’ve been served by both private power companies and membership organizations and I’ve got to say, the rates trend lower and at least some of the time, co-op members get rebates called earnings distributions. Heck, I even ran for a co-op board seat 30 years ago … lost the race but that was a good thing at the time as the board I would have served on broke a few rules and some of them ended up in the dock. (corruptions are everywhere but typically are not enduring.)

There is a host of other research out there that tells you that the greatest challenge to decarbonation are the attitudes fostered by the fossil fuel industry over the past 40 years of denial.

Heck, I think 50 % of Elon Musk’s pandering to the right is based on his understanding he can afford to piss off the liberals and others concerned about Co2 if he can increase his affinity with the unwoke right and lower their resistance to EVs.

Here is some info from the wiki:

The National Rural Electric Cooperative Association (NRECA) represents the interests of over 900 electric cooperatives in the United States. Cooperatives are not-for-profit and are owned by their membership. Founded in 1942, NRECA unites the country’s generation, transmission, and distribution cooperatives found in 47 states, serving over 40 million people.^[1] It is headquartered in Arlington, Virginia, and its CEO is Jim Matheson.^[2]

Electric cooperatives serve 12 percent of the nation’s population, yet own 42 percent of America‘s distribution lines covering three-quarters of the country. Currently, over 90% of electric cooperatives include renewable generation in their portfolios, receiving 11 percent of their total power from renewable sources compared to 8 percent for the entire utility sector.^[3]

The National Rural Electric Cooperative Association (NRECA) represents the interests of over 900 electric cooperatives in the United States. Cooperatives are not-for-profit and are owned by their membership. Founded in 1942, NRECA unites the country’s generation, transmission, and distribution cooperatives found in 47 states, serving over 40 million people.[1] It is headquartered in Arlington, Virginia, and its CEO is Jim Matheson.[2]

Electric cooperatives serve 12 percent of the nation’s population, yet own 42 percent of America’s distribution lines covering three-quarters of the country. Currently, over 90% of electric cooperatives include renewable generation in their portfolios, receiving 11 percent of their total power from renewable sources compared to 8 percent for the entire utility sector.[3]

The point is that the system we have to influence public policy is horrifically messy but it is a game that can be played to win. It helps to look at the circumstance in this manner if you want things to change.

I’d bet that there are more than a few folks here – not too many in CA – but back east, most of the suburban Atlanta counties are served by EMC’s. Why? Georgia Power and the Southern Company was too cheap to wire the rural areas outside the city limits of Atlanta and a few of the larger small cities. That led the federal government during the new deal to establish the Rural Electrification Authority.

Here is one of the takeaways about the REA from ‘investopedia‘:

Gains in productivity (from REA implementation) meant that farmers made more money and were able to pay back the REA loans. The default rate on these loans was less than 1%. In other words, the government managed to provide electricity to its rural population essentially for free.

Kinda cool … and more productive than complaining that the oil industry, which is responsible for at least the last couple of wars (if not more), is winning. I mean the current conflagration in Ukraine is because Putin covets Ukraine’s oil, coal and gas located in its eastern provinces.

• This reply was modified 1 year, 2 months ago by  George Hughes. Reason: correct spelling error of the last word

[craig-merrow]

Reminds me of an article about Amory Lovins, who observed that once we kick the fossil fuel habit, we won’t need fight over it because we won’t be using it. He termed it “Mission Unnecessary”.

[christopher-zolezzi]

Separate but not from the Subsidy discussion if you drive the 40 miles a day based on current gas prices (San Diego, CA) my average cost per mile is currently $0.224 meaning the car pays for itself in 10 years. Any subsidy is just gravy on top of the possible savings. I tend to own my cars for 15-20 years essentially making the car free to own. Promoting this with a calculator on the website similar to the one Tesla has would help people realize that the car has an economic benefit to purchase over other vehicles regardless of if it qualifies for the tax credit.

[john-malcom]

Governor Desantis, in a year he is running for President, signed a bill restricting sales of autos (Not clear if this includes vehicles like Aptera – autocycles) to only be made through a dealer. The exception being Tesla. So, other than Tesla, no direct-to-consumer auto sales. 🤬

https://news.yahoo.com/news/m/6f8402ec-1e6b-3605-a6b6-6de6a5240ee5/tesla-s-competitive.html

• This reply was modified 10 months, 3 weeks ago by  John Malcom. Reason: erased formatting text
• This reply was modified 10 months, 2 weeks ago by  Gabriel Kemeny.

[john-trotter]

I believe Aptera is OK, since the ban applies to manufacturers who do NOT have in-state dealerships. That said, it is one more reason to avoid anti-BEV states. Choose Disneyland, not Disney World.

[Shawgrin]

It is very unfortunate that there are states being run with greed and not need. Florida has killed off most of their indigenous wildlife and continues to abuse the states resources. Florida and several other states only look at making quick money and not preserving the resources they have. Aptera not only uses less resources to build and maintain than any vehicle of the same size or larger, and uses less resources now and in the future than any vehicle ever before. Less wasted, more for us in the future. I strongly believe we need the Aptera and vehicles like it if we are going to bring our planet back into balance.